New Nutjets Payscale (proposed)

[Snakeplt]

I am VERY POSITIVE that this is a joke. I am VERY POSITIVE that the MEC was just KIDDING and they are still in heavy negotiations....THIS is what they sent us...just couldn't be true...LOLOLOLOL....I am laughing through the tears !

FIRST OFFICER - 7on 7off SCHEDULE (All Classes)
YR1 - $ 33,500 Old YR1 - $ 27,108 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 34,760 Old YR2 - $ 28,368 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 36,020 Old YR3 - $ 29,628 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 37,280 Old YR4 - $ 30,888 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 38,540 Old YR5 - $ 32,160 ($6,380/yr Diff - $531/month add. pay)

FIRST OFFICER - RESERVE SCHEDULE (Old Flex) (All Classes)
YR1 - $ 39,000 Old YR1 - $ 32,364 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 40,260 Old YR2 - $ 33,624 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 41,520 Old YR3 - $ 34,884 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 42,780 Old YR4 - $ 36,144 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 44,040 Old YR5 - $ 37,404 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)

CAPTAIN - 7on 7off SCHEDULE (ALL CLASSES)
YR1 - $ 41,500 Old YR1 - $ 37,560 ($3,940/yr Diff - $329/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 44,000 Old YR2 - $ 39,816 ($4,184/yr Diff - $349/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 53,000 Old YR3 - $ 47,208 ($5,792/yr Diff - $483/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 65,000 Old YR4 - $ 57,996 ($7,004/yr Diff - $584/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 69,000 Old YR5 - $ 60,984 ($8,016/yr Diff - $668/month add. pay)
YR6 - $ 71,500 Old YR6 - $ 64,188 ($7,312/yr Diff - $610/month add. pay)
YR7 - $ 74,000 Old YR7 - $ 67,560 ($6,440/yr Diff - $537/month add. pay)
YR8 - $ 80,000 Old YR8 - $ 74,496 ($5,504/yr Diff - $459/month add. pay)

CAPTAIN - RESERVE SCHEDULE (Old FLEX) (ALL CLASSES)
YR1 - $ 52,500 Old YR1 - $ 48,060 ($4,440/yr Diff - $370/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 55,000 Old YR2 - $ 50,316 ($4,684/yr Diff - $391/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 64,000 Old YR3 - $ 57,708 ($6,292/yr Diff - $525/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 76,000 Old YR4 - $ 68,496 ($7,504/yr Diff - $626/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 80,000 Old YR5 - $ 71,484 ($8,516/yr Diff - $710/month add. pay)
YR6 - $ 82,500 Old YR6 - $ 74,688 ($7,812/yr Diff - $651/month add. pay)
YR7 - $ 85,000 Old YR7 - $ 78,060 ($6,940/yr Diff - $579/month add. pay)
YR8 - $ 91,000 Old YR8 - $ 84,996 ($6,004/yr Diff - $501/month add. pay)

So if you are a COMPLETE LOSER and just can't find a job elsewhere and LOOK FORWARD to making up to $39,000 a year by year FIVE ($44k/yr on the SLAVE schedule) please apply !!! IF YOU THINK YOU WILL UPGRADE TO CPT IN UNDER FIVE YEARS YOU ARE AN IDIOT !

For those interested in the payscale AFTER year 8 (when pay by weight takes effect...you reach $100k at year TWELVE only if you fly the FALCON, the X or the G200 (Captain's Pay). YOU NEVER REACH $100k in ANY OF THE LIGHTER JETS...LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL !!!!!!!!!!! (This is for the NON-SLAVE SCHEDULE)

IF you bid the SLAVE RESERVE SCHEDULE, you reach $100k at year 10 UNLESS you fly the Ultra or 400XP (these turds NEVER get to 100k). The HEAVY (so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** funny) IRON drivers (Falcon/X/G200) get to $100k at year TEN under the SLAVE SCHEDULE...WHAT A FREAKIN' JOKE !!!! OUR UNION AND MEC ALLLLL SUCK !!!!!!!!!

IF there are any other aviation companies out there considering letting the TEAMSTERS on your property....DON'T !!! THEY SUCK !!!

 

[On Your Six]

Terrible - a huge slap in the face to all NJA pilots.... Tell those slimeball Teamsters to shove it! I would expect a big exodus from NJA in the next few months...

 

[boxhauler]

Think Twice

There are a lot of you young pilots lurking on this board that would love to fly a jet. I remember those days. I used to fly right seat in D18 in the middle of the night delivering Wall Street Journals just to fly. If you have any self worth at all, please do not come to NetJets at this time. The best thing you can do is take the interview and then turn down the job when they tell you the pay scale, or make some excuse not to accept at this time. Tell them it will be a family decision due to the pay scale and you will let them know. Wait until the dust settles and we get a decent contract.

 

[miles otoole]

Good luck convincing most drooling CFIs. They get 3 times their current pay, get to fly a jet, get benefits, get to "rub elbows", get a regular schedule, get to fly to "ASSSSSSSPENNNNNNNN-mmmmmmm, California.................", and after 3 years and 2000 + hours of turbine SIC time, make themselves very qualified for a "better" corporate job.

I have talked to more than a few young CFI studs and the PERCEPTION is that
a) This is a very tough economy, b) This is a great opportunity to gain valuable experience. "You gotta do what you gotta do." This mantra is repeated time and time again, as well as "When doctors intern, look at the pay (low) versus the effort (high) and responsibility (high).
I really don't see an answer. You will ALWAYS have very smart and motivated young college educated guys and gals who know that they must do their time in the right seat. The only way, IMHO, to steer many of these young studs away from this portion of the industry is to drop the 1st year FO pay to under $20K. Demand then might drop precipitously. Heck, $34,000? That's barely below what most college grads in other industries make in entry level jobs, all without sitting behind a desk working 50 hours a week.
I just don't see it a changin' anytime soon.

 

[milehigh6080]

Good luck convincing most drooling CFIs. They get 3 times their current pay, get to fly a jet, get benefits, get to "rub elbows", get a regular schedule . . . .

I have talked to more than a few young CFI studs and the PERCEPTION is that
a) This is a very tough economy, b) This is a great opportunity to gain valuable experience. "You gotta do what you gotta do." . . . .

I really don't see an answer. You will ALWAYS have very smart and motivated young college educated guys and gals who know that they must do their time in the right seat. The only way, IMHO, to steer many of these young studs away from this portion of the industry is to drop the 1st year FO pay to under $20K. . . . .

As one of the often maligned thousands of youngun's trying to get a break, I have to say that Miles' assesment is pretty much dead-on accurate. When you're working as a CFI for $15-20 a flight hour and you're cracking $12,000 in a good year, it's hard to look at a job as an FO at $34k and turn it down because it's sub standard. Even though we all know that it is, it's certainly much closer to the standard than we're experiencing right now.

I just recently in the past couple months started to move out of instructing, and it feels great. Not because the pay is a whole lot better, but for other reasons like a guaranteed pay and medical benefits. As an instructor, you endure weeks where the weather is bad and you can't fly much that week- so guess what, you just don't eat that week. As an instructor you bend over backwards for students who aren't putting in 1/4 of the effort that you are. As an instructor you can see a reduced student load in winter time, if you're in a slower area, or simply have a slow spell in your marketing campaign. It's rough. I'm not complaining, I wouldn't trade my time spent instructing for anything, and I never plan to let my CFI lapse. I genuinely like the actual process of instructing, but I really really despise working as a CFI, it's an awful way to make a buck.

So when you have the chance to move out of instructing, you don't walk, you run. Everyone here who has instructed at one time did the same thing, and I seriously doubt any of them left the instructing ranks to go directly into the right seat of a large business jet or a major airline. The vast majority left for a job that was far short of their eventual goal. I doubt most will even leave instructing to go to Net Jets. And that's the beginning of the problem.

From the minute we make the decision to pursue a career in flying, it quickly dawns on us that it's a long road to travel, there is a very definate ladder to be climbed. So we start off instructing because we know it will lead to the next job. We take the next job, which even though it comes with a lot of compromise, it'll give us better experience for the next job. Etc etc. As professional pilots we are all climbing or have climbed the ladder it's just part of making it as a professional pilot. There's always the mentality that it's ok to take a job because it's temporary, a means to an end. Employers understand that and it's unrealistic to assume that most of them won't exploit it. We want the most that we can get to do a job and they want to pay the minimum that they have to for us to do the job.

We constantly recieve advice from those who have gone before us and made it to a more stable point in the career- they all tell us to hold our standards high, don't work for substandard wages, don't settle for bad schedules, etc etc. But the problem is, for them to have reached the point where they feel qualified to give that advice, they have probably made the same mistakes that they turn around and warn against. It's not that the advice isn't appreciated, I and many others understand that it's being given for our own good as well as the general good of the profession, but it's very hard to take it with more than a grain of salt when everyone knows that every pilot who has made it anywhere in this field has made the same sacrifices that we're making.

Is there a solution to the whole problem? Maybe or maybe not. But that doesn't stop us from trying. As pilots we're used to identifying a problem and then immediately and decisively working to correct it. As upcoming pilots, the problem is that we have low pay and bad schedules, so we identify a position that is incrementally better and we take it and continue to look for an even better position. As pilots who are a little further along without many more levels above their current position, the solution is to band together and attempt to work with (or against) their employers to recieve better pay, work rules and benefits while blaming pilots further down on the ladder for lowering the bar. Chances are they lowered the bar themselves once when it was the best solution for them, just as their current efforts are the best solution for them now. But the solution is not going to come about that quickly or easily. At various points in climbing the ladder, we'll all look up and complain that those who went before contributed to the problem and we'll look down and complain that those below us are perpetuating it. Maybe we're all part of the problem, but I don't think that blaming those who are in the same shoes as you were a short time ago is the answer. Maybe it'll get better in the future, but it's going to be a very long process and getting overly worked up or excited about it is just going to raise your blood pressure and not really do much more good.

Milehigh

 

[tripacer]

I got one question for Griz, Snakeplt, and ALL the other posters here who are whining about the TA.

Why did you take the job 3-5 years ago, and then stay, if it's so bad at NetJets?

I guess it is because you guys can't go back to the bankrupt air carriers you came from. Do us all a favor and QUIT - PLEASE.

Bitching about a $25 thousand dollar signing bonus - GOD .. go fly at a regional airline for a few years and you'll realize you got it pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good at NJA.

 

[miles otoole]

Bitching about a $25 thousand dollar signing bonus - GOD .. go fly at a regional airline for a few years and you'll realize you got it pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good at NJA.

I agree-of course, very few will see 25,000. Entry pay at NJ is BEAuuuutiful.

 

[xrated]

Let me first say I have some good friends at Netjets and I wish them the best. But fact is, all three of the guys I know went to Netjets knowing what the pay was going to be and their long term goal was to eventually get out. I've spoken to all three in the last couple days and while they are disappointed, they are not suprised. Since they plan on leaving ASAP, they'll probably take the money and run. So with that said, they all knew it was a "stepping stone" or somthing to get them by.

Now, approx three years ago when EVERYTHING was taking a big dump, most Netjets guys were loving life. Flying cool planes, company was growing, hiring pilots,(some of which complain on this board) rich people were still rich and "Uncle Warren" was allways going to take care of them....and they were going to reap the benefits of an "Industry leading contract". IBT lapel pins and bag tags were visable at every FBO from TEB to SMO.

Punches were thrown towards furloghed airline guys, regional pilots and those who flew for other fractionals. As a pilot for a vendor of Netjets, I was even looking down the barrel of a few angry Netjets pilots....even got called a SCAB?

Fast forward a few years and here we are. All those holding out for "The BIG ONE". Well here it is folks, what are you going to do? A few select airlines are hiring, there are good corporate jobs to be had, military is trying to keep people, and some have degrees in other non aviation fields.

To those who are "Whining", you hiried on when the pay was Sh!t, what was your excuse? Why shouldn't a pilot making 18k-22k a year try to get on? And who the F@&k told you a union was going to solve your problems? What did they do for the Majors, the Auto Industry or the Steel Worker. Short term, ya things were good, but it dosen't last.....does it?

To answer a question of yours tripacer, I don't think many of the guys complaining on this board came from airlines that furloghed. Most furloghed pilots are very humbled and very appreciative of what they have. They should know. I know a couple of the Netjets pilots who post on this board seem to have come straight from military flying to NJA. Speaking from expereience, (My Grandfather, Dad, and Brother all millitary pilots), the civillian flying world can be quite a shock for many of them.

Good Luck to all those at Netjets.

 

[Snakeplt]

Interesting.

Milehigh...that was a very thoughtful and well-written piece.

SPEAKING AS A FURLOUGHED MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT AND EX-MILITARY PILOT, allow me to set the record straight with Tripacer and Xrated (who seem to have all the answers). It is truly amazing that you have actually SEEN the posted numbers above but you JUST DON'T GET IT !!! Not only is this an INSULT to the hard working NUTJET pilots currently on the payroll, this is another WEAPON that other companies can use to show that PAYCUTS are needed in every facet of aviation. OUR DEFEAT IS YOUR DEFEAT !!!

Tripacer: Some of us came here out of NECESSITY ! More of us STAYED out of HOPE. I too worked at the regionals and there ain't much difference between a GOOD regional and NUTJETS ! IF you are a Nutjets employee asking the "whiners" to QUIT, then we know you just LOVE the TA and will vote YES. If you are an OUTSIDER, who REALLY AND TRULY doesn't know the first foking thing about NUTJETS, go crawl back under the rock you stuck your stupid, ugly piehole out of !

XRated: You seem to know alot of people who know alot of people who know alot of people but YOU DON'T KNOW JACK about NUTJETS unless you work here - NOT EJM or EJI fool, but NJA !!! You are WAY OFF THE MARK on your "speculation" that ex military or ex major airline pilots are HAPPY or THANKFUL to be working at NUTJETS...yes, maybe INITIALLY after the furlough it was a good HIDING PLACE until things returned to whatever NORMAL is, but not now ! But why am I telling YOU this, you obviously seem to ALREADY KNOW all about this because of the info you have received from a friend of a friend of a friend. The real WHINERS are both of you...you are just PRAYING that enough of us quit so that you suck-ups can move right in...LOL. COME ON ADMIT IT !!! So transparent, not unusual but STILL amazing !

 

[Sctt@NJA]

We should drop the first pay to below 20k to prevent young folk from using NJA as a stepping stone????


Oh lord help us this is the mentality that will destroy us. You guys remember what our minimums are?? 2500 total time, 500 multi ect.

Not many CFIs around with those hours. Not that you can get hired with those hours anyway.

NJA is not an entry level aviation job. It just looks like one.

This is something we need to change. Paying LESS is not the answer.

 

[Snakeplt]

Sctt...

You got that right brothah !!!

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I got one question for Griz, Snakeplt, and ALL the other posters here who are whining about the TA.

Why did you take the job 3-5 years ago, and then stay, if it's so bad at NetJets?

I guess it is because you guys can't go back to the bankrupt air carriers you came from. Do us all a favor and QUIT - PLEASE.

Bitching about a $25 thousand dollar signing bonus - GOD .. go fly at a regional airline for a few years and you'll realize you got it pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good at NJA.

I would like to answer this one more specifically.

I came to NetJets in November 2000 from a charter job. I took a small paycut to come here which I justified as worthwhile for future potential.

Keep in mind those were different times. I was making captains pay within a few months of my hire date. I was a released captain almost 6 months to my date of hire.

I had 2 gateways available with an easy drive from where I was living in south eastern Massachusetts.

Compare that experience with what a new-hire will have to go through if this TA passes. (it wont)

This new hire will have to pick up and move to an RCA. They wont make what I made my first year till year 4 or so. They have NO guarantee of EVER making more than 81K due to the new pay "classes".

And aside from what new hires will have to put up with there are decided set-backs in the TA for those of us who have been here for awhile.

Some people are definately here out of necessity. Others, like me,
came here out of choice. We took a gamble in the concept of fractional ownership. The fact that we continued to grow during a recession seemed to be proof that the idea was working and had a bright future. Today we have twice the number of pilots that we did when I was hired. That alone suggest phenominal potential.

So we had high expectations for this contract.

We have been let down. Big time.

Let's put it this way. A first year flight attendant on our BBJ makes about 15K more than a new hire FO. They make about 10K more than a 5 year FO. They make more than a second year captain! (talking about with our raises!)

This what what we mean by a kick in the nads, slap in the face ect...

You wouldn't be mad as hell?

 

[jppt2000]

Sctt,
By the way,
I have pretty close the same seniority as you
I too was hired in Nov 2000
I hope I'm wrong but our seniority places us in Class II category for pay
Even if you fly a bigger piece of equipment, you don't get the pay
We cap at 81K also

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I guess I will have to look at it again! Though the way I understood it, most of the people currently employed would be locked into "class IV". Since there are seniority protections in place you would be "class IV" as long as there was someone junior to you who is captain in a "class IV" airplane; X, G200, Falcon.

Only the very junior and the future hires will be subject to the lower "classes".
Correct me if I am wrong!!!!

 

[Hawk Driver]

Constructive Bid

Sctt,

The way I read the TA is that there will be a constructive bid for all the pilots. Essentially you will re-bid for your seniority in the group of planes. If after the re-bid you can still hold Class IV than you will be paid accordingly, however, if there are enough guys in front of you that can hold all of the seats open, you would be back to another Class...

Ex. 2000 Pilots on the seniority list.

You are #1000

If there are only 999 CPT's slots avail in Class IV planes, you would get the next available which would be Class III and paid accordingly.

They are calling it a constructive bid so it isn't a system flush which would cost millions. It is only a realignment for pay purposes only.

Now this is only my opinion from reading the TA.

HD

 

[Sctt@NJA]

OH MY GOD. You are correct of course. I was mistaken. Just re-read that part more carefully.

So the beauty of this deal is you can fly a Citation X and still be capped at the Ultra level.

Not like it matters. Its doomed to fail!

Oh MY GOD!!!!!!!

Its... just.... unreal.

This one little detail is just a drop in the bucket. But I am struck with fresh horror of just how bad this TA is.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

The horror is still stinking in. So the MEC wants me to agree to a new system where my ultimate pay potential goes DOWN from around 95K a year to possibly no more than 81K................ ahhhhhh..... my head is about ready to explode!!!!

 

[tripacer]

Griz

I dont have a bone to pick with you, nor am I mad. Why would I be? I just don't understand this sense of entitlement. Yes, pilots industry wide make poor wages - while management takes more than there fair share. But, did you really think you were going to be making $150k? You believed what your union was promising and the company was spewing. Welcome to the 'real' aviation industry.

I also would like to know what you mean by the "regional mindset". From my side of the tracks I am very familiar with the military mindset with regards to attititudes toward the regional industry. Again the sense of entitlement rears it's ugly head, until of course you are an ex-military pilot being furloughed from mainline - then the regionals look pretty tasty, and just to keep flying, you demand the pilot seat at a regional. How does that not constitute the same whorish behavior?

If you want to point fingers, I guess you could also scream at the guys at NJA who went the PFT (Pay-for-training) route also. Afterall, didn't that action tell management years ago that they could treat pilots anyway they wished, since they'd be willing to pay for a job at low-wages? I think we have finally come around, but it will take time to reverse the damage done.

At least you don't have ALPA negotiating your contract.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

"sense of entitlement"

Doesn't that usually refer to someone who expects things to just be handed to them?

We aren't looking for hand outs.

We are looking for honest compensation for what we do. We don't expect to be handed this, we know we need to fight for it. That our MEC has been so WEAK in this fight is what has us so disgusted.

 

[FrontierFan]

I have been watching everything pretty closely for the past couple of months and just came back from an interview. The question I have is where people are getting the idea that NJA is looking for low time instructors who "get to fly a jet for the first time" and therefor will fly for substandard pay. Here is a breakdown of the people I met at my interview:

1) Airforce (KC-135)

2) Marine Corps (Super Corbra, Beech 1900 121 time, and Citation type)

3) Piedmont Airlines (over three years on the DHC-8)

4) American Eagle (over 5 years on the E-145 and other Eagle T-props)

5) Career Charter Pilot (typed in the KA-350 who flew every Beech product except the 1900)

6) Career Charter Pilot (typed in 1900 and DHC-7)

7) Me (see profile)

I would guess that the average age was around 35. We all went through the NJA presentation that discased everything under the current contract and to my knowledge every one who was offered a job accepted. These folks were far from a CFI drooling over a jet. They were hard working professionals who did not see any future at their current employer and or had a couple of layoffs under their belt. No one is getting any younger and this contract is still better than any of us could find to work under elsewhere.



The fact is that while this TA is far off from what most people were hoping for it is still better than all of the regionals where most of us were coming from or going to.

Finding a company that has never had a furlough, no hot reserve, has good benefits, pays you day one, pays all of your uniforms, and is growing all adds up to a company that is much better than a lot of other outfits out there.

Looking at airline pilot pay I found a quick comparison for the first three years as an FO and fourth as a captain:

1) Air Wisconsin: 23, 33, 34, 41

2) American Eagle 21, 30, 32, 45

3) ASA 19, 34, 35, 66

4) Chautauqua 22, 29, 33, 61

5) Comair 23, 37, 38, 66

6) Express Jet 20, 28, 31, 57

7) Pinnicle 21, 24, 30, 60

8) PSA 21, 27, 29, 60

9) Skywest 19, 27, 28, 61

10)Trans States 22, 25, 27, 58
Regional Average:
Year 1: $21.1 Year 2: $29.4 Year 3: $31.7 Year 4: $57.5 Four year Average: $34.9

When working out this demonstration I did not take into effect companies like Colgan Air, Corporate, Great Lakes, Mesa, Mesaba, Shuttle America or Skyway. I also did not compare per-diem or benefits.

NJA new Pay scales:

Year 1: $33.5 Year 2: 34.7 Year 3: 36.0 Year 4: 65. Four year Average: $42.3

This demonstrates an average difference of $7,400/year.

Using the same criteria I compared Flight Options and came up this:

Year 1: 33.9 Year 2: 36.0 Year 3: 39.9 Year 4: 62.1 Four year Average: $42.9



I understand that everyone is frustrated. At my previous employer (also Teamsters) we had passed a 96% strike vote before our TA got finalized. I think that NJA pilots obviously deserve more but to say that it will pass because of low time pilots with no jet time who will work for nothing is a very very inaccurate observation of our industry as a whole.