New bid at CAL

[Flopgut]

Is there going to be a lot of guys who will not return for $120+ and hour? Sure reserve is unpleasant,..

 

[SoCentralRain]

Is there going to be a lot of guys who will not return for $120+ and hour? Sure reserve is unpleasant,..

Guys, UAL has zero furloughees that were tossed out while still on the 777/400. In fact, most furloughees were A320 or 300 drivers by the time they got "surplused". Very few furloughees went directly from the 767 to the unemployment line. That means the most senior furloughed pilot with a Summer 1999 hire date was making about $86 and change with a couple of 767 guys making about $101.

Remember this, the top 1100 or so furloughees on the street from UAL have been furloughed twice and have NOT been accrueing longevity for pay purposes.

Saying "it blows" is a dramatic understatement.

SCR

 

[UALRATT]

I read it after it was approved by the MEC's without membership ratification over a year ago. So I need my memory refreshed.

The UAL pilots will come back with medical insurance and their old pay rates they had on the day they were furloughed. That means the first guy "hired" at CAL could be making $124/hr if he was on the 777/747 at 8 yr pay when he was furloughed even though he will be junior to the last newbies at CAL who are making $31/hr. That's also more than almost all of the FO's at CAL make the exception being year 10,11, 12 wide body FO's which is only a handful of pilots. The junior pilots at CAL got left out in the cold once again, but it was the right thing to do.

I have nothing against "hiring" these guys but it's messed up that they will be no pay raise for the thousands of pilots at CAL senior to them who will now be making less than these "new hires".

I think what's really messed up is agreeing to pay professional pilots at a rate of $31.00 per hour but you agreed to that hence the reason it's in your contract. Now start thinking outside the sphere and maybe JCBA can address all that. You're directing your energy looking into a mirror. It's only gonna come back at you. Point it instead toward Smisek and company.

 

[nimtz]

davessn763, your post was ill informed at best. To a UAL guy it reads as petty moaning. Check UAL bus and 73 rates b4 u assume the furloughed UAL types are getting cash in front of junior Cal guys.

 

[Flopgut]

This is better than a bid that furloughs 200 pilots. Rest assured Jeff would rather be furloughing, and if we had not won that scope award he probably would be. We get the right scope AND work rules, every United FO that votes on this contract will be a captain in five years.

 

[eaglesview]

I read it after it was approved by the MEC's without membership ratification over a year ago. So I need my memory refreshed.

The UAL pilots will come back with medical insurance and their old pay rates they had on the day they were furloughed. That means the first guy "hired" at CAL could be making $124/hr if he was on the 777/747 at 8 yr pay when he was furloughed even though he will be junior to the last newbies at CAL who are making $31/hr. That's also more than almost all of the FO's at CAL make the exception being year 10,11, 12 wide body FO's which is only a handful of pilots. The junior pilots at CAL got left out in the cold once again, but it was the right thing to do.

I have nothing against "hiring" these guys but it's messed up that they will be no pay raise for the thousands of pilots at CAL senior to them who will now be making less than these "new hires".

Overlooking the fact that your numbers are wrong, are you saying they are making to much or you're making to little?

 

[davessn763]

Overlooking the fact that your numbers are wrong, are you saying they are making to much or you're making to little?

Both pilot groups are making too little, hopefully that will be sooner rather than later.

Let me know what numbers you think are wrong and I will edit my original post.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Will being an active pilot on the property be an advantage to being off the property during the SLI process?

Nope..........

 

[whatitdoing?]

This is better than a bid that furloughs 200 pilots. Rest assured Jeff would rather be furloughing, and if we had not won that scope award he probably would be. We get the right scope AND work rules, every United FO that votes on this contract will be a captain in five years.

Exactly. We do this right, there's gonna be ALOT of movement. Age 65 hits with a new contract and protecting scope??? We get it wrong, see you in the unemployment line.

 

[100/hour/5y]

Get ready for the NEW UNITED way of doing things "scab acceptable"

A Message From the Master Chairman, Captain Wendy Morse
The vigilance of the United pilots has uncovered falsification of pilot training records.** Through the Pilot Data Reporting System (PDR), your reports have documented specific instances of falsified completion of the mandatory SOC Phase I integration training records.
*
The United Pilot Learning Network help desk is outsourced to personnel who apparently have no understanding of the significance of FAR-required pilot training.*We thank those members who filed PDR reports (and FSAPs) for providing your union with the specifics necessary to protect our pilots and to give us the portfolio necessary to bring our concerns to the company and to ensure that no pilots fly out of compliance with this mandated FAA training.
*
So what happened?* As the PDR reports were compiled, ALPA discovered that malfunctions in the program had led the HELP DESK to fast forward pilots through the CBT slides.* In some instances pilots who had not actually completed either the slides or the final review questions, all of which are required by the company and the FAA, were signed off.* In fact, in one instance the HELP DESK (located on the other side of the world) determined that it would administer an oral examination to a pilot who was experiencing trouble getting through the review question slides.* When accent/language issues made this “solution” too difficult to execute, the HELP DESK staffer became frustrated and terminated the oral just half-way through, declaring the pilot “signed off.”
*
While we can all see the humor in such incidents, the reality is that the FAA and United Airlines have determined that all United pilots are responsible for the SOC integration material.** Therefore, the Association is obligated to protect pilots who may have been unintentionally caught up in possible falsification of training records and led down that path by the company’s ill-conceived and inadequate training program and outsourced “help desk.”* In discussions with our legal advisors and the FAA, we determined that pilots who had not completed all of the slides and the questions could potentially be in jeopardy of certificate action by the FAA were they to fly a trip after the July 22 revision date.**
*
When we first brought this to the company, our concerns were downplayed, though we articulated our concerns several times.*The substantial number of documented instances convinced us that this situation could not be ignored or dismissed, thus we were left with no other choice than to bring our concerns to the FAA.
*
In discussions with the company this week we learned that in fact there are two separate deadlines for pilots to accomplish the SOC training for Phase I, depending upon whether there is fleet specific required training in the module.*The B-767 & B-777 are the only fleets in Phase I that have fleet specific training.*The A320 and B-747 fleets have only general knowledge information in Phase I.* Therefore, the urgency to complete training by the company’s advertised July 22 deadline is applicable to only the B-767 & B-777 fleets.
*
As a result of our proactive diligence the company has acknowledged our concerns and has issued a letter to all pilots.*The Association advocated that pilots be compensated for any additional required training to rectify the company’s failure.*Initially the company was reticent to agree to this until they understood the magnitude of the problem.*We articulated that, as the company both created and owned the problem, this was unacceptable. We reminded them that pilots who had already dedicated many hours to completing an inadequate program could not be expected to dedicate more hours to the same training without being compensated.* Ultimately, they agreed.
*
THE BOTTOM LINE
*
B-767/757 & 777 PILOTS: *If you attempted to complete the FLEET SPECIFIC training and required outside technical assistance, and any of the following occurred during that training (whether or not you now show as completed):
*
************** 1.*** You were advanced beyond any number of instructive slides that you did not review, or
************** 2.*** You were advanced beyond the review questions, (i.e., did not complete review questions), or
************** 3.*** You were signed off by any individual and feel that you didn’t actually complete the training,
*
YOU MUST NOT FLY A TRIP WHICH OPERATES ON OR AFTER JULY 22.* IF YOU FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY, WE STRONGLY URGE YOU TO TAKE THE FOLLOWING ACTIONS:
*
****** A)**** Contact your Flight Office and advise them that your training was flawed and incomplete.
****** B)**** File an FSAP report (and a PDR, if you have not previously done so).
*
According to the company you will be required to accomplish the training module, but you will be compensated with another hour of pay.
*
Once shown as complete, the training is no longer accessible in the United Learning Network, which is among the reasons for the requirement to contact your Flight Office.
*
B767/757, 777, B-747 and A-320 PILOTS: *If you attempted to complete the GENERAL SUBJECTS training and required outside technical assistance and were subjected to any of the above listed conditions, 1 - 3, you will be required to follow steps A – C above as well; however, the July 22 deadline does not apply.* Please contact your Flight Office for details.
*
We will continue to defend vigorously our safety culture, one that is the product of decades of work, and one that is respected worldwide.*We will continue to articulate aggressively the critical nature of this subject to United management.*If they ignore common sense and proven history, if they fail to put safety ahead of all other priorities, or if they continue to attempt to marginalize the relevance of the Air Line Pilots Association as an equal safety partner, we will work relentlessly, exploring every legal avenue, to protect the interests of our crews and passengers.
*

 

[Andy]

Guys, UAL has zero furloughees that were tossed out while still on the 777/400. In fact, most furloughees were A320 or 300 drivers by the time they got "surplused". Very few furloughees went directly from the 767 to the unemployment line. That means the most senior furloughed pilot with a Summer 1999 hire date was making about $86 and change with a couple of 767 guys making about $101.

Remember this, the top 1100 or so furloughees on the street from UAL have been furloughed twice and have NOT been accrueing longevity for pay purposes.

Saying "it blows" is a dramatic understatement.

SCR

Dude, there were a lot of senior pilots who took the voluntary furlough. When I retired from the AF Reserve last fall (collecting Active Duty retirement), I took one of the J4J positions at Skywest. One of the UAL guys in the class used to be a 777FO with well more than 12 yrs on property. I resigned from Skywest a few days into training but there were a lot that stuck it out.

As for me, I was furloughed off of the 75/76 (was on mil lv) in May 2009 at 3rd year pay (waaay too much furlough time; was hired Jun 2000). Yeah, I'll do bottom reserve out of EWR for $88/hr.
But I'm getting old and I get fatigued a lot easier than all you young bucks. And since I don't need the money (my retirement check is more than enough + wife still active duty), I have no problems informing schedulers that I'm too fatigued to fly on any occasion that they try to push me. I lose pay over it? Not a threat; we're banking money every month without me working.

 

[pilotgolfer]

Its good to see your arrogance didn't wear off, Andy. How did your hedge fund work out for you?

 

[Andy]

Its good to see your arrogance didn't wear off, Andy. How did your hedge fund work out for you?

It worked out very well; I shut it down after making enough to live on for the rest of my life. Probably not what you wanted to hear - I assume you were looking for a schadenfreude moment.

 

[SoCentralRain]

Dude, there were a lot of senior pilots who took the voluntary furlough. When I retired from the AF Reserve last fall (collecting Active Duty retirement), I took one of the J4J positions at Skywest. One of the UAL guys in the class used to be a 777FO with well more than 12 yrs on property. I resigned from Skywest a few days into training but there were a lot that stuck it out.

As for me, I was furloughed off of the 75/76 (was on mil lv) in May 2009 at 3rd year pay (waaay too much furlough time; was hired Jun 2000). Yeah, I'll do bottom reserve out of EWR for $88/hr.
But I'm getting old and I get fatigued a lot easier than all you young bucks. And since I don't need the money (my retirement check is more than enough + wife still active duty), I have no problems informing schedulers that I'm too fatigued to fly on any occasion that they try to push me. I lose pay over it? Not a threat; we're banking money every month without me working.

Andy, what I should have said in my original post was involuntarily furloughed pilots off of the 400/777. Yes, I know, there were plenty of people in the 75/76 when they got the involuntary boot. You were one of them.

I actually didn't know of any 400/777 guys that took the voluntary furlough. In fact, there's at least one -400 Captain that took it--maybe more. I find quite satisfying the irony/humor in the idea of him returning w/CAL as a 737 FO making $190/hr to tell their crew desk to pound sand when they try to work him like a 29 year old new hire.

SCR

 

[Andy]

Andy, what I should have said in my original post was involuntarily furloughed pilots off of the 400/777. Yes, I know, there were plenty of people in the 75/76 when they got the involuntary boot. You were one of them.

I actually didn't know of any 400/777 guys that took the voluntary furlough. In fact, there's at least one -400 Captain that took it--maybe more. I find quite satisfying the irony/humor in the idea of him returning w/CAL as a 737 FO making $190/hr to tell their crew desk to pound sand when they try to work him like a 29 year old new hire.

SCR

Ah, gotcha. Sorry for the misinterpretation.
I went ahead and looked at some old SSC minutes (Dec 09 report, after completion of all furloughs). It showed that there were 190 pilots who accepted voluntary furlough and would not have been furloughed. I'm sure that more than a few of them will end up coming back, as two years is a good amount of time off to do whatever you want to do. The ex-777 pilot I met a Skywest had taken VLOA to get in a new company working on alternative aircraft propulsion systems - unfortunately the grants fell through and quite frankly, it sounded a bit moonbatish.

I also anticipate a higher recall acceptance rate this time around for several reasons:
1) The economy is still bad.
2) The furlough time isn't as long as last time (I spent 5 yrs furloughed last time - will probably be four years for me this time around).
3) With mandatory age 65 retirements kicking in Dec 2012, the combined company will be losing quite a few pilots every month.
Last time, ~2/3 of the pilots came back. I'd be surprised if the number is under 80% this time around.

I remember one senior pilot who took a voluntary furlough in '08 to devote more time to being a realtor in Vegas. Ouch! I expect him to be jumping on the first recall opportunity.
I've been working on a startup business with a friend in the last year but the margins are brutally thin in this economy; as an owner, you end up working for less than minimum wage once you factor in all of the hours you put in. It's been fun and a great learning experience but I'm in the process of turning everything over to my friend.

 

[Skippy]

This will be interesting to throw 200 United pilots into the reserve fray with crappy workrules. Sick calls will go through the roof a month after the first guy hits IOE.

BINGO! just wait til the cal side gets a dose of UAL entitlement and pissed offness!

i got ur double pump right here

 

[Andy]

BINGO! just wait til the cal side gets a dose of UAL entitlement and pissed offness!

i got ur double pump right here

Skippy, do you think entitlement is the correct word? I'm not going to fly a plane when I'm likely to fall asleep shortly after leveloff. Sure, cruise flight doesn't have a high accident potential, but if you're that tired, how safe are you during critical phases of flight?

As for pissed offness, you have a valid point. I've worked past most of that, although I pin a good portion of my anger toward alpo and the UAL pilots who voted to increase flying hours while I was on furlough. I actually look forward to working with CAL crewmembers; they seem to do take care of their junior employees much better than UAL.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I actually look forward to working with CAL crewmembers; they seem to do take care of their junior employees much better than UAL.

we will see

 

[densoo]

I actually look forward to working with CAL crewmembers; they seem to do take care of their junior employees much better than UAL.

As strange as it is to say, this may be true, simply based on the fact that all the junior UAL pilots, and them some, aren't getting a UAL paycheck right now.