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New AirTran TA Thread

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Hey Cal EWR 737,

Your a standup guy. I wish the NPA had some balls and thought more about group equity vs. individual interests. They will not picket for themselves, let alone another pilot group. This is the most fractured union I've ever encountered.

To think I chose FL over CAL. Yet another wrong dicision in a list of many with this career.
 
Ya... whatever... I think you will see some picketing at AAI.. Did you call your SPC chair yet... I called this morning... PM me.. AirTran is a good airline..... young pilot group... inexperienced union... tough management.. it will work out...

TA No Way...
 
Wrong. Read the TA. Where does it say that all reserve lines can't have moveable days? If you can show me I will stand corrected.

d. Reserve Line holders:
1) All reserve lines will contain at least two (2) blocks of days off containing three (3) consecutive days off.
2) Reserve Pilots will receive not less then ten (10) calendar days off in a thirty (30) day bid period, or eleven (11) calendar days off in a thirty-one (31) day bid period
3) The Company may convert reserves to a system of movable days off as defined in 14.d.4). below. Each Reserve Pilot will then receive not less than twelve (12) calendar days off in that bid period.
a) Should the Company make this conversion, the Association will meet with the Company after three (3) full bid periods to evaluate the effectiveness of the new system. Either party may discontinue this system with written notice to the other.
b) With said notice, the Company will return to the day off limits set in 14.d.2. within three (3) full bid periods.
4) Reserve Lines with Movable Days Off (R-MDO):
a) R-MDO holders will receive a minimum of twelve (12) days off each bid period. At least two (2) of the day off blocks shall be three (3) consecutive days.
b) Crew Scheduling may move a R-MDO Pilot’s days off in two (2) ways:
(1)Reserve Period Adjustment
(a)Three (3) or more calendar days prior to the first day affected, one (1) or two (2) consecutive days off may be moved in either direction to receive a reserve TAP assignment. Once moved, those days off may no longer be adjusted utilizing the MDO method.
(b)The new reserve TAP shall be the same type as the TAP removed and will comply with F.11.a.
(2)Flight assignment
(a)Flying may be assigned to a R-MDO that spans into his day(s) off.
(b)The assignment may span no more than two (2) current calendar days off in either direction.
(c)The assignment must occur within the three (3) day assignment window provided that:
(i)The notification is made during a TAP or an existing duty period.
(ii)Such flying assignment must be scheduled to start no later than the last calendar day of the current block of reserve days, or scheduled to arrive no earlier than the first day of a block of reserve days.
5) Movable days off may not result in a R-MDO Pilot receiving a single calendar day off.
6) After the Final Schedule Award, a R-MDO Pilot may designate up to two (2) of his blocks of days off as “golden days off” (GDO) which the Company may not move, except by mutual consent between the Pilot and the Company, after the Final Schedule Award. GDO’s will not apply if the Pilot is awarded a move-up line.
7) Crew Scheduling may move a R-MDO’s days off only when consistent with need to protect reserve availability.

I DID READ THE TA. It "appears" That a moveable day off (-MDO) Reserve line will be annotated as such. Similar to an RS RS1 RS2 etc. And yes I am a line holder. WTF difference does that have to do with anything.

People talk about unity and supporting the union. I've heard nothing but how we should now recall the BOD and others. This is from the very people that supported AP recently in the BOD election. Thats not unity guys. Use your vote to show your displeasure or disdain.

RV
 
Section 1 – Purpose of Agreement

-Still does not bind the Holding Company except by two side letters, neither of which specifically require the AirTran Holdings to specifically honor the Agreement, but only say “Holdings will not allow Airways to breach the Scope provisions of THEIR Agreement”. Doesn’t say ANYWHERE that Holdings will be bound to the Scope provisions. Worthless letter.

-Removal of provision in 1-C-1 where the company CURRENTLY, in the event of furlough, cannot use non-seniority list pilots to perform non-revenue flying (i.e. they can use retirees currently working in the training center to move aircraft, perform maintenance flights, ferry flights, acceptance flights (new deliveries), etc, even if we have pilots on furlough).

-Removal of similar provision in Section 18 that says they must furlough training center pilots not on the Master Seniority List before they furlough line pilots. Training center retirees are now a protected class of employees.

SCOPE

-Addition of new language: The requirements of Section 1-C-1 (use of seniority list pilots for ALL company flying) do not apply for subsidiaries the Company (or the Holding company) create to fly Turboprops OR Turbojet aircraft under 86 seats. In other words, AirTran Holdings can create ‘AirTran Express’ to do ALL allowed flying in this section and not have to use AirTran pilots to do it.

-The MEC has been telling you that the company is limited to 5-8% of the block hours flown by RJ’s; that’s ONLY true IF the company has an “unavailability of aircraft or pilots” as defined in Section 1.C.2 and 1.C.2.a. If there’s no “unavailability”, that limit does not apply, and the contract SPECIFICALLY STATES THIS in the very next section, 1.C.3.

-1-C-3. Allows unlimited use of turboprops by the company at regionals (express or commuter carrier), including the 90-seat Q-400 turboprop that flies at almost 400 KTAS. Frontier Airlines pilots are enjoying zero, stagnant growth while their company has purchased Q-400’s and has placed them at a regional carrier. This aircraft is more cost-efficient to fly than any of our aircraft on 600NM and shorter segments (ref Bombardier cost analysis).

-1-C-3-a. Allows the regional we contract with to operate larger aircraft than previously allows, up to 106 seats and 114,000 pounds (with other airlines, not ours). They have to do this IF we give up Scope because the companies we would contract with are already operating 100-seat jets over 100,000 pounds (Mesa, etc). The tricky part also is that if that sub-service regional LATER gets larger aircraft, we are not required to terminate our Agreement with them. We can’t renew the contract, but it can run for its duration, and there’s no contractual “duration limit”.

-1-C-3-e. There are reductions of up to 2% of ASM’s for RJ use based on how many aircraft we operate, but we are already over 100 aircraft and that remained the same at 20% total operations, 10% of those can be 79-86 seats.

-1-C-3-e-1. Tries to say that if the company isn’t growing ASM’s, that the number of ASM’s operated by an “express carrier” is limited to 75% of the above ASM limit, but LATER goes on to say that if a contract is already in place and our growth stops, that limit will not apply. In other words, we could set all these RJ contracts in place, then stop taking 737 deliveries indefinitely, and we would not be allowed to rescind those contracts OR stop deliveries of new RJ’s to the feeder AND, what’s worse, we have NO furlough protection in the event they decide to reduce the 717 fleet. Don’t take my word for it (or the MEC’s), read it for yourself, ZERO protection in the Scope or Furlough section in this scenario.

-ASM’s – this is very ambiguous, and no one has done the math for you, so I will. The currently-flown AirTran ASM’s were obtained using the company’s last-quarter 10k statement which is public information available on Yahoo! Finance. RJ calculations made certain assumptions on average stage lengths and legs flown per day based on my last regional which is average for the industry (Pinnacle Airlines)

[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]AirTran Airways flew 5.21 Billion ASM’s for the 3 months ending March 31st, 2007 (5,207,132,000). Divided by 3 is 1,735,710,667 (1.7 Billion ASM’s operated per month).

[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT] Assuming an 86-seat RJ (a 90- or 100- seat aircraft configured to 86 seats with a business class) operates 6 legs a day on an average of an 600 mile stage length (2 hours, 10 hour per day utilization). 10% of the total current AirTran ASM’s above is 173,571,067 seat miles per month. Divided by 86 seats is 2,018,268 miles each 86-seater can fly per month. Divided by 600 SM average stage length is approx 3,364 legs per month. Divided by 30 days per month is 112 legs per day. Divided by 6 is 19 of the 79-86-seat aircraft can be operated on property RIGHT NOW by feeder carriers. Doesn’t sound too bad. But do that math with all 20% as 70-seaters.

[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]A 70-seat RJ (a 70-seater or a 90-seater configured to 70 seats) operates the same way as the 86-seater: 6 legs per day, 600 mile average stage length. Up to 20% of the total ASM’s can be 70-seat aircraft which equals 347,142,133 seat miles per month. Divided by 70 seats is 4,959,173 miles each 70-seater can fly per month. Divided by 600 SM average stage length is approx 8,265 legs per month. Divided by 30 is 276 legs per day. Divided by 6 legs per day is a total of 46 of the 70-seat aircraft that can be operated on property RIGHT NOW by feeder carriers. That’s more than 25% of our total fleet size.

- They could put all those airplanes on contract, then completely suspend 737 deliveries. Didn’t we just defer some of our 737 deliveries and sell 2 others? If the RJ’s under contract are just as cheap to operate (or cheaper on a seat-mile basis), why would they NOT do this? The answer is that there’s nothing stopping them from just this scenario.

- So, to recap Scope in our current market environment, we’d give up Q-400 turboprops just like Frontier has and is getting hosed with, give up to 25% of our fleet to be replaced by outsourced 70-seat RJ’s, and sign for up to a 40% pay cut for 90-100 seat RJ’s to come here. Is that the future “growth” you want at AirTran?

- Lastly, the MEC will tell you that the company doesn’t really WANT any of these RJ’s and you won’t see them under this contract. When is the last time you saw a company bargain for concessions in a contract and then not use them? Is there ANY language that protects us from the company “changing their mind” after they get more financial data for these aircraft and implementing a plan similar to the above? The answer: “No, there is NO protection in this T.A. for us to continue our current growth plan.”

SMALL JET PAY 78-100 Seats

-I put this in this section simply because, to me, it’s more critical to what I believe the company has planned, which is the addition of SJ’s to replace most, if not all, of the 717 fleet as the 195 is a more cost-effective aircraft than the 717.

(See SJ pay scale in T.A.)

-EVERY SINGLE YEAR AND SEAT is less than jetBlue blended rates.

-EVERY major carrier who flies SJ’s on-property has a higher rate than our proposed rate. These, combined with the Scope giveaways (which are the worst in the major airline industry), will make us the lowest-compensated and lowest-scope major in existence for these aircraft.
 
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The above is my analysis of Section 1, outside of M&A protection, which I'm still working on.

SMOKE AND MIRRORS!!

I haven't been to work lately, has anybody talked any pilots that are actually going to vote for this POS?

Yeah, actually there are. They're ALL mid to senior CA's who don't have to live under *most* of the concessionary parts.

I got a LOT of dirty looks in ops a few days ago with my stickers and chats with pilots who wanted to talk about it.

None of the dirty look people would come over, but they overheard our conversations. About half of the pilots against this who stopped and talked were F/O's, half were CA's, all just as mad.

They're not the ones that worry me; they'll vote NO and require little help to do so. It's the silent ones that won't talk about it either way. I know this is a very personal issue and tensions are high, and you just don't know how the quiet ones are going to vote.

THAT'S why it's SO important to get the real hidden pitfalls of this T.A. out to the pilots at the roadshows, so they can see the things the NPA isn't telling them and ask the hard questions the NPA doesn't want to talk about.

After that, if they STILL want to vote yes, that's their business. I may think them foolish or naive for doing so, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Good luck to all of us!
 
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TWE,

The problem with your "if you don't want it, then don't bid it" philosophy regarding MDO reserve lines is that somebody (the junior guys most likely...or maybe even you if you forget to bid) is going to get stuck with it. This should have no place in our contract.
 
Thanks Lear for fighting this turd. Our MEC said it was going to be bad but I would have never guessed your NC would agree to so many concessions. PM me the names on the NC. I'm kinda interested in who they are. Who is coach by the way?
 
TWE,

The problem with your "if you don't want it, then don't bid it" philosophy regarding MDO reserve lines is that somebody (the junior guys most likely...or maybe even you if you forget to bid) is going to get stuck with it. This should have no place in our contract.
J41 is exactly right.

The other problem is that they could make ALL the lines like that and NO ONE would have a choice (can't find where they're limited to make just certain lines MDO lines).

The other problem is that they could make a bunch of lines with "tactical reserve", then convert them later to "move-up lines", and eliminate any tactical reserves at all, therefore no one would actually GET the long-call reserve and be able to sit at home.

The other problem... well, I could go on and on about the reserve give-backs, but someone is working on that to post as well.

Bottom line: if you had to sit reserve for 2+ years as a CA upgrade, you wouldn't like it very much, and would be lucky to keep your marriage intact if you didn't live in ATL. The QOL is going to be among the worst of regionals for reserve pilots if this thing passes...

I didn't sign up here to live under regional work rules. Did you?
 
They're ALL mid to senior CA's who don't have to live under *most* of the concessionary parts.

As one in that category I don't know of one of my peers who is in favor of this thing. I could be way off here, but there is more support from us (against the TA) than you may think......
 
Section 1 – Purpose of Agreement

-Still does not bind the Holding Company except by two side letters, neither of which specifically require the AirTran Holdings to specifically honor the Agreement, but only say “Holdings will not allow Airways to breach the Scope provisions of THEIR Agreement”. Doesn’t say ANYWHERE that Holdings will be bound to the Scope provisions. Worthless letter.

Here's page 1 of ACA's contract. It defined the "Atlantic Coast Airlines Holdings, Inc (ACAI)" as the "Company" but operated Atlantic Coast Airlines as a subsidiary of that holding company. Seems like this would have been the way to go since it binds the entire document to the holding company. Was this avenue even explored? If not, why?



AGREEMENT

between
ATLANTIC COAST AIRLINES HOLDINGS, INC. (ACAI)
and the
Air Line Pilots
in the service of
ATLANTIC COAST AIRLINES HOLDINGS, INC. (ACAI)
as represented by
THE AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION
INTERNATIONAL
THIS AGREEMENT is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between ATLANTIC COAST AIRLINES HOLDINGS, INC. (ACAI) (hereinafter referred to as the “Company”) and the Air Line Pilots in the service of ATLANTIC COAST AIRLINES HOLDINGS, INC. (ACAI), as represented by the AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL (hereinafter referred to as the “Association”)



 
As one in that category I don't know of one of my peers who is in favor of this thing. I could be way off here, but there is more support from us (against the TA) than you may think......
That's great to know, especially since I don't know many people in that category and haven't been able to really discuss it with many of them.

Glad you're on board with the NO vote and that you're out there pushing it with your peers, that's great stuff! :beer:
 
That's great to know, especially since I don't know many people in that category and haven't been able to really discuss it with many of them.

Glad you're on board with the NO vote and that you're out there pushing it with your peers, that's great stuff! :beer:

I'm on board too!

I am a 2nd yr FO with a wife and one child. I do not live beyond my means, I live a modest life, I have a modest house with modest furnishings. I flew almost 900 hours last year and would expect to fly more this year. I have $58 bucks in my bank account to last until the 10th. I cannot figure out for the life of me how anyone would think to propose a 13% raise (that is in actuality less than 5% with new contract language ) and expect me to vote for it. And don't even get me started on scope.

TO ANYONE out there that is for this TA, this is your pepsi challenge. Prove to me that my numbers are wrong. I will not insult you on this board, but someone would have to prove to me numerically that we are off on our calculations. You may pm me to discuss it privately if you like, but I don't expect anyone to be able prove that this is a better deal. Now I have to leave so I can buy some Raman Noodles, they are on sale.
 
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I'm on board too!

I am a 2nd yr FO with a wife and one child. I do not live beyond my means, I live a modest life, I have a modest house with modest furnishings. I flew almost 900 hours last year and would expect to fly more this year. I have $58 bucks in my bank account to last until the 10th. I cannot figure out for the life of me how anyone would think to propose a 13% raise (that is in actuality less than 5% with new contract language ) and expect me to vote for it. And don't even get me started on scope.
You know, I have NEVER in my LIFE had to budget like I do now at this airline.

Maybe that's because when I flew Lears for $52,500 a year BACK IN 1998 (which is what I'll probably make, not including per diem, on year 2 wage here A FULL DECADE LATER), I was a single guy.

Maybe that's because when I was a 727 F/O making $48k a year at a crap Supplemental 121 operator BACK IN 1999, I was a single guy (although I have never had as much fun flying as I did then - great job).

Now that I have a $1,100 a month mortgage, a wife (who also works), a kid, one $250 a month car payment, etc, I find myself buying everything in bulk when the price drops a buck and putting it in the deep freezer, etc, just to make sure I can afford to go see a movie or take a vacation to Destin with the kids for a long weekend once a year (you can forget Disney, much less Atlantis in the Bahamas where the 11 year old wants to go).

I did the exact math with my last several trip pairings. 4.5% pay cut in work rules. Period. A 13% salary raise became less than 9% which isn't even COLA off the amendable date. And there's very few years that are 13% raises, most are 9% which gets cut fully in HALF with the work rule give-backs.

The NPA needs to pass the bong, 'cause I evidently ain't smokin' enough of what they're having to picture me voting yes... and that's just on pay rates alone.
 
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The plot thickens..

From an email I received:

This is an early intel report I put together from a few tidbits of information from multiple sources. Due to the fragmentation of the info, there is a possibility that some elements will be inaccurate.



The BoD will pull the TA and send the same negotiators back to the table to fix the top 3 or 4 issues. They are doing this because they know the TA will fail and they need to fix just enough to get the 50% + 1 votes required to pass. They have no interest in starting from our existing contract and moving forward. They are still trying to salvage a doomed TA by picking a few pieces of corn out of the turd and telling you "it doesn't smell so bad".



Get ready for the spin!
 
I won't accept anything less than:

1) A return to the table with a new NC . . no re-treads, nor Allen getting involved, period.

2) A re-write from the 2001 contract. This TA has more bugs in it than the Embassy the Soviets built for us in the 1980's . . . the one that was so riddled with bugs that it had to be torn down and begun again.

3) The BoD has to come out with some sort of show of surpport for a re-write; otherwise, we might as well all look for new jobs.

Under this contract, the 717 replacement is coming. It's about one-third EMB, one third out-sourced 85 seaters, and one third Q400 turboprops.

We could be looking at furloughs in just a few short years under this POS,, with 7 year CA bumped to EMB's at $95./hr???? Are you kidding me? These clowns should be horse-whipped!

.Vote NO, MF !

.
 
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That information isn't set in stone yet. From the info I'm getting, there's some division in the thoughts of the BOD for what should happen next.

They thought their Wilson Polling data was satisfied (well, 2 out of 4 ain't bad, right?) but forgot to include a crucial question. It's great to ask what people's top priorities are (better pay, better health insurance, increased 401(k) match, fix Sap 2 and trip trades), but they didn't ask what concessions we were willing to give to get those things accomplished.

So AP and the NC decided that they had free reign to pick the concessions. If they HAD asked the question, they would have known that we weren't prepared to give up very much AT ALL, as the company has been profitable, we're in the bottom 1/3 for pay anyway, in the bottom 1/2 for health insurance premiums, and that needs to change without concessions.

Could we give back a FEW things? Sure. Can we give up Scope (our future jobs in just a few short years)? No. Who's going to deliberately negotiate themselves out of a job or into a pay cut to a smaller plane? That's ludicrous.

Can we give up the entire scheduling section just to get better trip construction? Absolutely not.

AP and this NC believes they can't get anything more out of the company right now. That's fine. If you don't think you can do the job, step aside and let someone else work at it. Is it going to take more work by the pilot group? Absolutely. You've got to be willing to take this thing to the mat. If you're not, then we're not going to get very far. The polling data indicates that we ARE prepared, probably now more so than ever.

It's my opinion the BOD is split... part of them realize this thing isn't going to pass and want to kill it. AP and the NC think it just needs to be "tweaked" and sent back. They do that and you can expect an IMMEDIATE recall effort in force - it's already sitting quietly gathering supporters via email and phone calls, but it WILL happen.

If they push forward with this T.A. for a vote, it's going to die. How bad it dies depends on a lot of things. If the BOD were to re-vote then come out and say they recognize they voted on an incomplete T.A. with incomplete information and now realize it's not acceptable and they now are saying they "do not recommend", it stays within the confines of the RLA for good-faith bargaining and we vote it down by a LARGE percentage.

AP *might* keep his position in that scenario IF he replaces every member of the NC who still supports this, SH is an absolute MUST for replacement, and IF AP agrees to STAY OUT of negotiations. Do the Wilson Polling again, agree to abide 100% by the data, direct the NC to obtain that, then GET OUT and do the job of running the NPA through the merger process with Midwest and other daily union work.

If the BOD doesn't do anything and decides to let it go as-is, it'll still die, just not as spectacularly or helpfully, and they'll still get recalled.
 
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This is what I was advocating earlier, pulling this POS and re-doing the rough parts. Although there are more than rough edges that need fixing.....

But I will say that if SH is involved in ANY WAY in "tweaking, or reworking" this thing then I will not have to read it to vote it down. This guy is 0 for 2! How many chances does AP have to give him before he gets the message that all SH cares about is himself? The current NC has no confidence from the pilot group and anything they send will be tainted, or atleast that will be the general preception.

The Bod needs to pull this TA, regroup, re-poll, and replace the NC. I know it will take longer to do it this way, but I would rather enlist in a long wait to get it done correctly than enlist in a long fight to get the same result.
 
I think they would be a lot smarter to let us vote. It will send a clear message of where we stand to the company.
There is no way we should send any of the previous negotiators back to the table. They have failed us and we need new people to go to the table for us.
 
I'm not taking off my tag..who's with me...risking being removed from a trip I guess ?
 
Just got back from a road show... including Skipper, AP, and others.

They're going to let it go to a vote. It was mentioned that if it tanked, it better tank HARD, otherwise it gets a lot harder going back for round 2.

They also don't seem to believe the pilot group has the cajones to take it to the mat. That's why this was put out; it was the best they could do with the support they had. The company simply thinks they can keep hammering, eventually get released, impose what they want, and the pilot group will roll over and take it.

When this thing DOES tank, everyone better be prepared to pick up a picket sign and start saving for a strike fund, because it's either that, or give in to the company demands, there doesn't seem to be a lot of in between room at the moment. If we have a BIG no vote and a BIG picketing turnout, maybe that would change.

Still voting NO, didn't see much that was new and evidently SH is putting out a rebuttal to our rebuttal.
 
I'm not taking off my tag..who's with me...risking being removed from a trip I guess ?

I'd like to get a tag and a sticker. How can I get one?

I've been handing out the bullet rebuttal paper to anyone and everyone who will take it. So far everyone has been extremely thankful that someone (great job lear) has done the work and pulled out all the sh*t from this.
 
F O U L ! ! !

. . . and evidently SH is putting out a rebuttal to our rebuttal.

That's a foul . . . the TA was their opportunity, and Oops, they missed again. Who do I call to support recall for those guys who refuse to learn from their mistakes, or acts of omission? I mean . . . he!!, we didn't come down with yesterday's rain. I'm PO'd and plan to remain there until I get a livable TA contract. I made a decision to come to AirTran, and not use it as a stepping stone . . . but if you push hard enough, long enough . . . .
 
Its our airline ...why not make it what we want ?... We are all here for a long ..long time... The SPC guy emailed me back...... This so stupid...can't MCO see that ?

Whatever...let the games begin !! Not sure where to get a tag..... But if everyone had one .. Hmmmm....can't remove everyone ...... I would think they got bigger fish to fry......speaking of which....got to run out and get some more Shore Lunch!!
 

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