Citrusflyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 252
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
New AirTran TA Thread
- Thread starter ATLDRVR
- Start date
- Watchers 42
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
You know, I have NEVER in my LIFE had to budget like I do now at this airline.
Maybe that's because when I flew Lears for $52,500 a year BACK IN 1998 (which is what I'll probably make, not including per diem, on year 2 wage here A FULL DECADE LATER), I was a single guy.
Maybe that's because when I was a 727 F/O making $48k a year at a crap Supplemental 121 operator BACK IN 1999, I was a single guy (although I have never had as much fun flying as I did then - great job).
Now that I have a $1,100 a month mortgage, a wife (who also works), a kid, one $250 a month car payment, etc, I find myself buying everything in bulk when the price drops a buck and putting it in the deep freezer, etc, just to make sure I can afford to go see a movie or take a vacation to Destin with the kids for a long weekend once a year (you can forget Disney, much less Atlantis in the Bahamas where the 11 year old wants to go).
I did the exact math with my last several trip pairings. 4.5% pay cut in work rules. Period. A 13% salary raise became less than 9% which isn't even COLA off the amendable date. And there's very few years that are 13% raises, most are 9% which gets cut fully in HALF with the work rule give-backs.
The NPA needs to pass the bong, 'cause I evidently ain't smokin' enough of what they're having to picture me voting yes... and that's just on pay rates alone.
Last edited:
Clyde Frog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Posts
- 315
The plot thickens..
From an email I received:
This is an early intel report I put together from a few tidbits of information from multiple sources. Due to the fragmentation of the info, there is a possibility that some elements will be inaccurate.
The BoD will pull the TA and send the same negotiators back to the table to fix the top 3 or 4 issues. They are doing this because they know the TA will fail and they need to fix just enough to get the 50% + 1 votes required to pass. They have no interest in starting from our existing contract and moving forward. They are still trying to salvage a doomed TA by picking a few pieces of corn out of the turd and telling you "it doesn't smell so bad".
Get ready for the spin!
From an email I received:
This is an early intel report I put together from a few tidbits of information from multiple sources. Due to the fragmentation of the info, there is a possibility that some elements will be inaccurate.
The BoD will pull the TA and send the same negotiators back to the table to fix the top 3 or 4 issues. They are doing this because they know the TA will fail and they need to fix just enough to get the 50% + 1 votes required to pass. They have no interest in starting from our existing contract and moving forward. They are still trying to salvage a doomed TA by picking a few pieces of corn out of the turd and telling you "it doesn't smell so bad".
Get ready for the spin!
Ty Webb
Hostage to Fortune
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 6,524
I won't accept anything less than:
1) A return to the table with a new NC . . no re-treads, nor Allen getting involved, period.
2) A re-write from the 2001 contract. This TA has more bugs in it than the Embassy the Soviets built for us in the 1980's . . . the one that was so riddled with bugs that it had to be torn down and begun again.
3) The BoD has to come out with some sort of show of surpport for a re-write; otherwise, we might as well all look for new jobs.
Under this contract, the 717 replacement is coming. It's about one-third EMB, one third out-sourced 85 seaters, and one third Q400 turboprops.
We could be looking at furloughs in just a few short years under this POS,, with 7 year CA bumped to EMB's at $95./hr???? Are you kidding me? These clowns should be horse-whipped!
.Vote NO, MF !
.
1) A return to the table with a new NC . . no re-treads, nor Allen getting involved, period.
2) A re-write from the 2001 contract. This TA has more bugs in it than the Embassy the Soviets built for us in the 1980's . . . the one that was so riddled with bugs that it had to be torn down and begun again.
3) The BoD has to come out with some sort of show of surpport for a re-write; otherwise, we might as well all look for new jobs.
Under this contract, the 717 replacement is coming. It's about one-third EMB, one third out-sourced 85 seaters, and one third Q400 turboprops.
We could be looking at furloughs in just a few short years under this POS,, with 7 year CA bumped to EMB's at $95./hr???? Are you kidding me? These clowns should be horse-whipped!
.Vote NO, MF !
.
Last edited:
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
That information isn't set in stone yet. From the info I'm getting, there's some division in the thoughts of the BOD for what should happen next.
They thought their Wilson Polling data was satisfied (well, 2 out of 4 ain't bad, right?) but forgot to include a crucial question. It's great to ask what people's top priorities are (better pay, better health insurance, increased 401(k) match, fix Sap 2 and trip trades), but they didn't ask what concessions we were willing to give to get those things accomplished.
So AP and the NC decided that they had free reign to pick the concessions. If they HAD asked the question, they would have known that we weren't prepared to give up very much AT ALL, as the company has been profitable, we're in the bottom 1/3 for pay anyway, in the bottom 1/2 for health insurance premiums, and that needs to change without concessions.
Could we give back a FEW things? Sure. Can we give up Scope (our future jobs in just a few short years)? No. Who's going to deliberately negotiate themselves out of a job or into a pay cut to a smaller plane? That's ludicrous.
Can we give up the entire scheduling section just to get better trip construction? Absolutely not.
AP and this NC believes they can't get anything more out of the company right now. That's fine. If you don't think you can do the job, step aside and let someone else work at it. Is it going to take more work by the pilot group? Absolutely. You've got to be willing to take this thing to the mat. If you're not, then we're not going to get very far. The polling data indicates that we ARE prepared, probably now more so than ever.
It's my opinion the BOD is split... part of them realize this thing isn't going to pass and want to kill it. AP and the NC think it just needs to be "tweaked" and sent back. They do that and you can expect an IMMEDIATE recall effort in force - it's already sitting quietly gathering supporters via email and phone calls, but it WILL happen.
If they push forward with this T.A. for a vote, it's going to die. How bad it dies depends on a lot of things. If the BOD were to re-vote then come out and say they recognize they voted on an incomplete T.A. with incomplete information and now realize it's not acceptable and they now are saying they "do not recommend", it stays within the confines of the RLA for good-faith bargaining and we vote it down by a LARGE percentage.
AP *might* keep his position in that scenario IF he replaces every member of the NC who still supports this, SH is an absolute MUST for replacement, and IF AP agrees to STAY OUT of negotiations. Do the Wilson Polling again, agree to abide 100% by the data, direct the NC to obtain that, then GET OUT and do the job of running the NPA through the merger process with Midwest and other daily union work.
If the BOD doesn't do anything and decides to let it go as-is, it'll still die, just not as spectacularly or helpfully, and they'll still get recalled.
They thought their Wilson Polling data was satisfied (well, 2 out of 4 ain't bad, right?) but forgot to include a crucial question. It's great to ask what people's top priorities are (better pay, better health insurance, increased 401(k) match, fix Sap 2 and trip trades), but they didn't ask what concessions we were willing to give to get those things accomplished.
So AP and the NC decided that they had free reign to pick the concessions. If they HAD asked the question, they would have known that we weren't prepared to give up very much AT ALL, as the company has been profitable, we're in the bottom 1/3 for pay anyway, in the bottom 1/2 for health insurance premiums, and that needs to change without concessions.
Could we give back a FEW things? Sure. Can we give up Scope (our future jobs in just a few short years)? No. Who's going to deliberately negotiate themselves out of a job or into a pay cut to a smaller plane? That's ludicrous.
Can we give up the entire scheduling section just to get better trip construction? Absolutely not.
AP and this NC believes they can't get anything more out of the company right now. That's fine. If you don't think you can do the job, step aside and let someone else work at it. Is it going to take more work by the pilot group? Absolutely. You've got to be willing to take this thing to the mat. If you're not, then we're not going to get very far. The polling data indicates that we ARE prepared, probably now more so than ever.
It's my opinion the BOD is split... part of them realize this thing isn't going to pass and want to kill it. AP and the NC think it just needs to be "tweaked" and sent back. They do that and you can expect an IMMEDIATE recall effort in force - it's already sitting quietly gathering supporters via email and phone calls, but it WILL happen.
If they push forward with this T.A. for a vote, it's going to die. How bad it dies depends on a lot of things. If the BOD were to re-vote then come out and say they recognize they voted on an incomplete T.A. with incomplete information and now realize it's not acceptable and they now are saying they "do not recommend", it stays within the confines of the RLA for good-faith bargaining and we vote it down by a LARGE percentage.
AP *might* keep his position in that scenario IF he replaces every member of the NC who still supports this, SH is an absolute MUST for replacement, and IF AP agrees to STAY OUT of negotiations. Do the Wilson Polling again, agree to abide 100% by the data, direct the NC to obtain that, then GET OUT and do the job of running the NPA through the merger process with Midwest and other daily union work.
If the BOD doesn't do anything and decides to let it go as-is, it'll still die, just not as spectacularly or helpfully, and they'll still get recalled.
Last edited:
Citrusflyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 252
This is what I was advocating earlier, pulling this POS and re-doing the rough parts. Although there are more than rough edges that need fixing.....
But I will say that if SH is involved in ANY WAY in "tweaking, or reworking" this thing then I will not have to read it to vote it down. This guy is 0 for 2! How many chances does AP have to give him before he gets the message that all SH cares about is himself? The current NC has no confidence from the pilot group and anything they send will be tainted, or atleast that will be the general preception.
The Bod needs to pull this TA, regroup, re-poll, and replace the NC. I know it will take longer to do it this way, but I would rather enlist in a long wait to get it done correctly than enlist in a long fight to get the same result.
But I will say that if SH is involved in ANY WAY in "tweaking, or reworking" this thing then I will not have to read it to vote it down. This guy is 0 for 2! How many chances does AP have to give him before he gets the message that all SH cares about is himself? The current NC has no confidence from the pilot group and anything they send will be tainted, or atleast that will be the general preception.
The Bod needs to pull this TA, regroup, re-poll, and replace the NC. I know it will take longer to do it this way, but I would rather enlist in a long wait to get it done correctly than enlist in a long fight to get the same result.
SkiFishFly
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2005
- Posts
- 779
Raja dat!
Stewie
Active member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2005
- Posts
- 43
My tags are on. I'm with ya.
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
Just got back from a road show... including Skipper, AP, and others.
They're going to let it go to a vote. It was mentioned that if it tanked, it better tank HARD, otherwise it gets a lot harder going back for round 2.
They also don't seem to believe the pilot group has the cajones to take it to the mat. That's why this was put out; it was the best they could do with the support they had. The company simply thinks they can keep hammering, eventually get released, impose what they want, and the pilot group will roll over and take it.
When this thing DOES tank, everyone better be prepared to pick up a picket sign and start saving for a strike fund, because it's either that, or give in to the company demands, there doesn't seem to be a lot of in between room at the moment. If we have a BIG no vote and a BIG picketing turnout, maybe that would change.
Still voting NO, didn't see much that was new and evidently SH is putting out a rebuttal to our rebuttal.
They're going to let it go to a vote. It was mentioned that if it tanked, it better tank HARD, otherwise it gets a lot harder going back for round 2.
They also don't seem to believe the pilot group has the cajones to take it to the mat. That's why this was put out; it was the best they could do with the support they had. The company simply thinks they can keep hammering, eventually get released, impose what they want, and the pilot group will roll over and take it.
When this thing DOES tank, everyone better be prepared to pick up a picket sign and start saving for a strike fund, because it's either that, or give in to the company demands, there doesn't seem to be a lot of in between room at the moment. If we have a BIG no vote and a BIG picketing turnout, maybe that would change.
Still voting NO, didn't see much that was new and evidently SH is putting out a rebuttal to our rebuttal.
Lowrider717
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2006
- Posts
- 201
I'd like to get a tag and a sticker. How can I get one?
I've been handing out the bullet rebuttal paper to anyone and everyone who will take it. So far everyone has been extremely thankful that someone (great job lear) has done the work and pulled out all the sh*t from this.
Afterprop
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2003
- Posts
- 125
F O U L ! ! !
That's a foul . . . the TA was their opportunity, and Oops, they missed again. Who do I call to support recall for those guys who refuse to learn from their mistakes, or acts of omission? I mean . . . he!!, we didn't come down with yesterday's rain. I'm PO'd and plan to remain there until I get a livable TA contract. I made a decision to come to AirTran, and not use it as a stepping stone . . . but if you push hard enough, long enough . . . .
That's a foul . . . the TA was their opportunity, and Oops, they missed again. Who do I call to support recall for those guys who refuse to learn from their mistakes, or acts of omission? I mean . . . he!!, we didn't come down with yesterday's rain. I'm PO'd and plan to remain there until I get a livable TA contract. I made a decision to come to AirTran, and not use it as a stepping stone . . . but if you push hard enough, long enough . . . .
Its our airline ...why not make it what we want ?... We are all here for a long ..long time... The SPC guy emailed me back...... This so stupid...can't MCO see that ?
Whatever...let the games begin !! Not sure where to get a tag..... But if everyone had one .. Hmmmm....can't remove everyone ...... I would think they got bigger fish to fry......speaking of which....got to run out and get some more Shore Lunch!!
Whatever...let the games begin !! Not sure where to get a tag..... But if everyone had one .. Hmmmm....can't remove everyone ...... I would think they got bigger fish to fry......speaking of which....got to run out and get some more Shore Lunch!!
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
