New AGE limit discussion

[pilotyip]

... because Obama's done 'wonders' for oil prices. Oil - the lifeblood of the aviation industry.

Interesting WWII story, New Dealers, read Obama like, said they could replace the lost natural rubber from the Far East by turning Central America into a worker's paradise. The workers would have free housing, free education, free medical care and be paid a fair wage to work on the rubber plantations. FDR went along with the plan to keep his New Dealers happy. But because the US needed rubber so badly, he also turned to the CEO’s of the oil, rubber and chemical companies and asked them to see if they could produce synthetic rubber in large enough quantities to supply the military needed of the country. One year later the New dealers were producing natural rubber at a cost of $326 a pound, and US Industry was producing synthetic rubber at under $30 pound and meeting almost 90% of the US needs.

 

[buckeyes95]

These guys had their chance, and they f'd up the whole industry. No way anything over 65. They need to get out of the way, they have held back a whole generation of pilots. It's time to go.

 

[Mamma]

Sure there is. If someone gets to work longer and wants or needs to, they can. And should. Cops and firemen don't get that option due to their BFOQ status. Instead, they get a cushy public pension. We lost those due to deregulation. It just took a long time for the dereg axe to fall.

In addition to greed you might also consider: need to work, right to work, discrimination based on age, love of job, etc. There are lots of reasons to stay in a cockpit and in your job when you are happy, healthy and qualified. There are damned few jobs that force a worker out solely based on age. In fact, with the exception of cops and firefighters, military guys and (a special and very weird exception, air traffic controllers( there ARE no other jobs that allow that because it is ILLEGAL.

It's not all about greed.

It's a windfall plain and simple. I don't care if you love your job, you made it to where you are in seniority and pay because men left before you at age 60. I will concede that many pilots were hosed and this is a fair remedy. My disgust is toward the ones I work with who have full pensions and a lot of other loot but "love their job too much to leave". We had guys on the street for three years while these guys VSA'd and took the windfall to 65.

 

[Andy]

Interesting WWII story, New Dealers, read Obama like, said they could replace the lost natural rubber from the Far East by turning Central America into a worker's paradise. The workers would have free housing, free education, free medical care and be paid a fair wage to work on the rubber plantations. FDR went along with the plan to keep his New Dealers happy. But because the US needed rubber so badly, he also turned to the CEO’s of the oil, rubber and chemical companies and asked them to see if they could produce synthetic rubber in large enough quantities to supply the military needed of the country. One year later the New dealers were producing natural rubber at a cost of $326 a pound, and US Industry was producing synthetic rubber at under $30 pound and meeting almost 90% of the US needs.

Are you suggesting alternative energy sources? If so, that's been tried for almost four decades.
The best replacement that we've come up with so far is shale. How's that Keystone pipeline construction coming along?

 

[Andy]

You can convince yourself of anything can't you, Andy?
Unfortunately, I listen to right wing radio and know when an issue is all talking point-
Take it somewhere else- you won't do better under an anti-labor republican Andy- and as a UAL furlough- you really ought to know better. And as an adult w/ a head should know better than to think an independent does anything but split the vote until we tweak the way we elect.
But go on- I'm sure your head's about to explode-

Keep telling yourself that the Dems are the solution for labor. Can you tell me who invoked emergency powers to cancel American Airlines' pilot strike? My memory's rather fuzzy ...
Neither party is better than the other when it comes to labor. The best condition for labor is a well functioning economy. There's a balance that must be struck between too little government regulation and excessive government interference. At the present time, we have excessive interference.
Age 65 - the bill originated in Congress. Which party controlled both houses when this came about?
You can tell me how great the Dems are for labor until you're blue in the face but their history is spotty.

 

[pilotyip]

Are you suggesting alternative energy sources? If so, that's been tried for almost four decades.
The best replacement that we've come up with so far is shale. How's that Keystone pipeline construction coming along?

No not that, it was an example of how a liberal, anti-business, Gov't tries to solve a problem that does not focus on the end result, but only the process. Fortunely FDR knew he had to turn to Wall Street and Detroit to save the world. BTW nice answer for wavey

 

[pilotyip]

These guys had their chance, and they f'd up the whole industry. No way anything over 65. They need to get out of the way, they have held back a whole generation of pilots. It's time to go.

Yea how could that be fair? it should have been the nest generation who benefited. I was the generation before and I did not benefit, is that fair to me?

 

[flyboyike]

By management of course.....how many times did you call in sick?....how many grievances did you file?...what was your on time performance?
0,0,100%....you get to upgrade.

Doesn't seem to be the case with me. I'm in my sixth year in the right seat on reserve with no improvement in sight. My airline will only lose two people this year to age 65.

 

[laker4284]

Well, golly gee, let me grab the whiskey and ponder this on the rocking chair out front the porch...what do all those jobs have in common?? Hmmm, if I done now push the dementia to the side, like an airline pilot, they all require some precise safety critical aptitude that decreases in age justifying a set age for retirement.

True but only to a point. Commercial pilots have, by the EEOC AND the FAA been acknowledged age 60 NOT to be a BFOQ. Simply because you choose the apply "critical aptitude" to airline pilots doesn't make it so and the evidence (more on that later) says otherwise.The FAA went half-way to where the EEOC (and non-Part 121 commercial pilots) are by re-setting the age to 65. What happens down the road is anyone's guess.

MY guess is that 65 will be our retirement age for quite some time.

You tend to miss - of ignore - the point that major airlines around the world have been flying with pilots over 60 for decades without age-related problems. So did our own commuter carriers until ALPA's One Level of Safety program was adopted by the Clinton Administration.

All-in-all, the whole idea that 60 is, or was, a sacrosanct safety age has been debunked for a long time.

 

[laker4284]

Let us not forget that the foundation of this debate is a lack of pay for the job.
Strengthen our unions and contracts and retirements and the pressure to work longer won't be nearly as great.
Hence my vote for Obama in about 8 months

I'd agree. In part.

People tend to want the right to work in order to continue a career. Some may do it because they love to fly but it would be safe to say that they do it for the money. That's capitalism, yes? How much money is each pilot's individual choice based on need, greed, style of living, and background.

I'd agree that better pay and especially a better retirement would induce more people to retire earlier rather than later. However - and a big "however" it is - that also depends on working conditions. If they such, no amount of money would induce people to stay much longer. If they were great, less money might not be that big an issue. As individuals, we all have different values, desires and needs.

Pensions make a difference, more so that pay I think. It was the Southwest guys -for the most part - who initially led the charge. They didn't have pensions AND they were a younger subset of the airline pilot group as a whole. They saw the value of working longer and began working toward that end as far back as the early '90s - almost twenty years ago.

Once the majors began shedding pensions the ranks of those who joined the Southwest guys, primarily in the APAAD group, grew exponentially.

Today almost no one has a pension, or at least a full one. If pensions have for the most part been eliminated from the equation then the balance swings to the desirability or necessity of working long, like most Americans can and do, to max out their defined contribution plans to ensure the power of compound interest and longer contributions create a nest egg to retire on.

The dynamic is all different now.