New AGE limit discussion

[laker4284]

I appreciate your sage opinion, really. But let me point out that when old guys observed ICAO airlines' pilots flying to 65, they were all over that!! Greatest idea ever!! Now when some of us point out that these same ICAO airlines staff their rosters with something other than strict seniority, that's the worst idea ever?! Come on Laker. That's sharpshooting.

Source? Specifics? I know of no ICAO major carrier that lets guys go to 65 on merit alone. I simply don't understand your point.

The older guys wanted an age change for a variety of reasons - right to work, need to work, love of job, or whatever. Many ICAO carriers had been doing the over 60 thing for decades. There were plenty of U.S. pilots who wanted the same privilege, particularly when the pensions went away and even more so when those same ICAO pilots were flying into the U.S.

However, how that equates to some (some, not all) ICAO carriers staffing on an other-than-strict seniority bases is beyond me. Illuminate me, por favor.

 

[laker4284]

There are many many example of "arbitrary" age discrimination in this country.

..Air Traffic Controllers must retire at 56-even though I am sure there are many competent controllers who could still do a great job at 57.

...You must be 16 to get a driver's license--even though there are no doubt 15-year-olds who could safely drive

...You must be 18 to vote--though there may be 17-year-olds who could competently vote

...In most states you must be 21 to drink (too restrictive in my opinion), though there are certainly many 20-year-olds who do!

Etc etc etc

Where is the mass clamor to get rid of these "discriminatory" laws?

This has been revisted more than once, including over on the Canadian age thread.

The COURTS have ruled, more than once, that certain ages are not discriminatory. Younger ages, for example, are based on the need for some seasoning - also known as maturity. Those courts -and the government in general - have set a floor. No court has set a ceiling ---

with the exception of those jobs where age might be deemed a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification (BFOQ). Police and Firefighters are about the only two CIVILIAN jobs that occupy that slot and that is because of the extreme physical nature of the job itself.

In the early '90s the EEOC (arbiter of age discrimination) expressly took civilian pilots out of the BFOQ classification because it was proven to be unwarranted. The EEOC then went on a tear to eliminate it in the civilian pay-to-fly world (Part 91, etc). The EEOC couldn't touch the airline pilot however. One federal agency is not allowed to dictate to another. So while one branch of the government said it was OK for pilots to fly past 60 and have NO retirement age, another branch said 60 was firm.

Until Congress stepped it AND the FAA itself reversed its position.

The Air Traffic Controllers retire at 56. However, the FAA has allowed the age to drift higher when it was running short on qualified controllers. That certainly undercut their position about older pilots or controllers being unsafe. That was used to great advantage by the guys who pushed the airline pilot age change.

 

[laker4284]

There is no windfall for the other groups to change the age. At my airline, its all about greed

Sure there is. If someone gets to work longer and wants or needs to, they can. And should. Cops and firemen don't get that option due to their BFOQ status. Instead, they get a cushy public pension. We lost those due to deregulation. It just took a long time for the dereg axe to fall.

In addition to greed you might also consider: need to work, right to work, discrimination based on age, love of job, etc. There are lots of reasons to stay in a cockpit and in your job when you are happy, healthy and qualified. There are damned few jobs that force a worker out solely based on age. In fact, with the exception of cops and firefighters, military guys and (a special and very weird exception, air traffic controllers( there ARE no other jobs that allow that because it is ILLEGAL.

It's not all about greed.

 

[nimtz]

It's not all about greed.

You are right. There's also the pathetic loser factor. Congrats Gramps, the only thing that gives you meaning in life is flying a jet. That's what I call a renaissance man...

 

[Kalifornia]

In fact, with the exception of cops and firefighters, military guys and (a special and very weird exception, air traffic controllers( there ARE no other jobs that allow that because it is ILLEGAL.

Well, golly gee, let me grab the whiskey and ponder this on the rocking chair out front the porch...what do all those jobs have in common?? Hmmm, if I done now push the dementia to the side, like an airline pilot, they all require some precise safety critical aptitude that decreases in age justifying a set age for retirement.

 

[waveflyer]

Let us not forget that the foundation of this debate is a lack of pay for the job.
Strengthen our unions and contracts and retirements and the pressure to work longer won't be nearly as great.
Hence my vote for Obama in about 8 months

 

[waveflyer]

Well, golly gee, let me grab the whiskey and ponder this on the rocking chair out front the porch...what do all those jobs have in common?? Hmmm, if I done now push the dementia to the side, like an airline pilot, they all require some precise safety critical aptitude that decreases in age justifying a set age for retirement.

Haha- great response

 

[Andy]

Let us not forget that the foundation of this debate is a lack of pay for the job.
Strengthen our unions and contracts and retirements and the pressure to work longer won't be nearly as great.
Hence my vote for Obama in about 8 months

... because Obama's done 'wonders' for oil prices. Oil - the lifeblood of the aviation industry.

 

[Flopgut]

Source? Specifics? I know of no ICAO major carrier that lets guys go to 65 on merit alone. I simply don't understand your point.

The older guys wanted an age change for a variety of reasons - right to work, need to work, love of job, or whatever. Many ICAO carriers had been doing the over 60 thing for decades. There were plenty of U.S. pilots who wanted the same privilege, particularly when the pensions went away and even more so when those same ICAO pilots were flying into the U.S.

However, how that equates to some (some, not all) ICAO carriers staffing on an other-than-strict seniority bases is beyond me. Illuminate me, por favor.

I didn't say merit alone. I'm pointing out yet another double standard I see in the old guy argument. The ICAO [global] age of 65 fit perfectly into the agenda. The fact that many airlines outside the US use seniority as only part of command evaluation, is the worst idea ever according to the same old guys!?

Answer this: Article 23.1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says this about "right to work": Everyone has the right ot work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work and to protection against unemplyment" Thousands of pilots were put out of work because of 65. Hundreds have been furloughed the entire 5 years. Yeah, there were other factors at play, but 65 was the tipping point. If 65 doesn't happen, thousands would have kept their jobs and others would have been hired, and the older workers would be retired or have sought other employment. Should the rights of the older worker take precedence over the younger worker to the extent that has taken place in US commercial aviation? Your campaign for 5 more years infringed on the rights of others.

 

[waveflyer]

... because Obama's done 'wonders' for oil prices. Oil - the lifeblood of the aviation industry.

You can convince yourself of anything can't you, Andy?
Unfortunately, I listen to right wing radio and know when an issue is all talking point-
Take it somewhere else- you won't do better under an anti-labor republican Andy- and as a UAL furlough- you really ought to know better. And as an adult w/ a head should know better than to think an independent does anything but split the vote until we tweak the way we elect.
But go on- I'm sure your head's about to explode-