New AAI ALPA Strategy: Fire SWA Haters!

[-9Capt]

That's a double negative. Was that what you meant to say or a typo?

Typo, oops

 

[Ty Webb]

This will not affect SLI at all, and it is really not the business of SWAPA pilots.

Sure, it's a free country. and we can sit around and dissect your people too, but when does it cross the line and become obnoxious? It ain't your business, just like it ain't our business who you elect.

 

[GoodTimes]

When does it cross the line and become obnoxious? Ask the Deltoid Duo.

 

[Quiet Flight]

It's a typo if I'm not mistaken, knowing him and his thoughts on issues lately and he's right in that ANY ONE person's removal isn't going to affect the SLI. It will, however, affect the ability of the Association to run smoothly. TO didn't have much of a social life, no kids or wife, don't think he was dating, ALPA work WAS his hobby, and he lived it 18 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Not many volunteers will be willing to dedicate that same time and energy, nor will they know ALPA policy and procedures inside and out as well, nor will they likely be as effective in dealing with management, all rolled into one person. It'll take at least 3, if not 4 or 5 volunteers stepping into those positions on a part-time basis to do the same work TO was doing by himself.

If enough people with good qualifications step up and volunteer to fill those needs, it'll be OK. If not, a lot of the day-to-day non-SLI union work (still getting management to honor the contract, ongoing grievances, daily issues, message board communications, etc) will start to fall by the way side. Not a good thing when we still have at least 9 months to 2 years left until we start to roll up the carpet as AAI ALPA.

Hopefully BJ will be better in the CEO's chair than BF was in terms of union relations and direct the V.P. Flt Ops to quit violating the contract in the interim between merged operations. That will go a LONG way into lowering the workload that ATN ALPA has.

As far as TO getting the boot for interfering with the SLI... I'm not buying that line yet. Of the reps who have returned my phone call, only one has mentioned that and only by broad innuendo, not by details or specifics. I'm reserving judgment on the way it went down until some specifics are released. The MEC is walking and talking in lock-step, which means they agreed as a committee as to what to say and how to say it which, after only ten years of ALPA experience (and seeing things like this before), has taught me that ALWAYS means there's more to the story.

My personal bet is that this is partially driven by the recent elections of more reps who think like CJ and AC, those new pilot reps not liking TO and his heavy-handedness in MEC meetings, and one, last SLI issue being the straw that broke the camel's back. I also think it's a shot across the bow for LH. He's not irreplaceable, but it would be better not to change MEC Chairs at this point in the process.

In my opinion, our MEC is more cohesive than ever after this move, evidenced by the voting record on the issue, and unified behind our Merger Committee in an even more supportive way than before (if that's even possible), leaving our MC autonomous to negotiate and reach an SLI solution that is fair, equitable, and meets the minimum needs of our pilot group or take it to arbitration if unable to reach a workable deal.

As I've said before, this pilot group isn't going to up and replace the MEC with people who will change that direction. If anything, the new reps that were just elected last month (at least the two in MCO that I know personally and one of the two in MKE) are more "Hard-Liners" in terms of defending the pilot group. That's what the pilot group wanted, so that we could sit back, do our job, and relax, knowing that they are working in our best interests.

Funny how SWAPA pilots elect Steve Chase in the same thought process that we elect 5 new MEC reps. Guess pilots, no matter who they work for, think quite closely alike.

Lear,

I'm just curious, but why did you think it was ok to use the SWAPA president's full name and yet only use initials for ALL of the ATN ALPA people you mention?

Again, just curious.

Thanks.

:beer:

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

Lear,

I'm just curious, but why did you think it was ok to use the SWAPA president's full name and yet only use initials for ALL of the ATN ALPA people you mention?

Again, just curious.

Thanks.

:beer:

I was wondering the same.

 

[redflyer65]

This will not affect SLI at all, and it is really not the business of SWAPA pilots.

Just more than a little insight into what's going on internally at AAI ALPA.. they are just not able to completely sweep it under the rug this time around. (usually the way ALPA works)

 

[SWA/FO]

Is the ship sinking?

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

I'm just curious, but why did you think it was ok to use the SWAPA president's full name and yet only use initials for ALL of the ATN ALPA people you mention?

Again, just curious.

Thanks.

:beer:

You're absolutely right, I should have. Don't know why.

My apologies, wasn't intended as a slight or anything negative. :beer:

On a side note, finally got a call back from TO and the big picture is starting to come into view.

 

[SWA/FO]

On a side note, finally got a call back from TO and the big picture is starting to come into view.

I'm all ears!!!!

 

[waveflyer]

Who exactly recalled him?
What's the process? Do all members get a vote? Or just the board? I can't imagine you can take someone who was elected by the pilots and recall him w/o their consent at some point-
That said- and I don't know or want to know his name- (PCL here though, right? )- was a worry- since '07 he's been all about ALPA-- and losing that with this acquisition goes back to a uninformed concern I've had all along: what is alpa national's motivation to facilitate this in a smooth way- a few well placed billable hours and they can create discord in a major competitor's ranks and can stretch this SLI out and keep collecting dues for up to 2 years. It's my understanding that ALPA has spent more $$ on AT than it's collected by a long shot- so why wouldn't they do this? Why not create big expectations? Why not create a "fight" inside every AT pilot? If they "fight", they get more money and divide a Delta(ATL-msp)/ UAL,CAL (california-mdw-den-houston)/usair (phx-las-phl- ohh wait, my bad!! ;-)AS(sea-pdx upcoming -800 spot: HI and alaska)competitor against itself-
It seems they have a responsibility to weaken us as much as possible to the other airline's members.
I hope that ALPA national wants to work with us to strengthen labor- but if another ALPA carrier gets weak and takes financial hits as a company and then contractually- and Wn picks up some of the slack like usair- and alpa has another mutiny....
Again- this isn't based in reality, but my own fears- but if the best alternative is to get AAI pilots on the list unified and receiving Wn wages- why would ALPA want that? At the very least they'd be expediting the cutoff date for their dues.

 

[Quiet Flight]

You're absolutely right, I should have. Don't know why.

My apologies, wasn't intended as a slight or anything negative. :beer:

On a side note, finally got a call back from TO and the big picture is starting to come into view.

Thanks Lear. So who is TO?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

 

[SWA/FO]

VP of ALPA National.... I'm told

 

[Lear70]

Well, seeing as I'm not identifying him by screen name and he was the MEC Vice Chair, which is a matter of public record, I'm talking about Todd Ortscheid.

SWA/FO, not going to get into a debate over it (I'm not meaning you, I'm meaning anyone else who might want to debate the issue on this forum - not going to happen). I'm friends with both him and with several MEC reps and I'm not getting in the middle of it. It's union politics, and this kind of thing is why I didn't run for MCO FO rep.

I should mention that he had already submitted his resignation last week, and there were no allegations of any "wrong doing", although the MEC has sent out a letter that I'm not altogether certain is 100% accurate and may be overstating the issue. It seems to be more of a fundamental difference of opinion on how things should work during the SLI. They didn't want to accept his resignation with the timeline where he stayed in office for a couple months training his replacement (which is standard ALPA practice), so they recalled him effective immediately.

The important thing is that the union will continue to function without any issues because of the way it's structured, the MC is unaffected by it COMPLETELY, and it's not going to affect the SLI in any appreciable way. What WILL be affected is the daily operations of our union - he did a LOT of work in and out of that office. It will take some time to get volunteers up to speed and hopefully not too much will fall by the wayside while that happens since 99.9% of our efforts are focused on the SLI. It's never a good thing to suddenly have a void in an important office.

Wave, he was recalled by the MEC. In an ALPA structure, the pilots elect status representatives, a CA and an FO for each domicile. In our structure, since ATL is so big, we have two CA and two FO reps for ATL. That means we have 8 voting "reps" (4 CA's, 4 FO's) and 2 non-voting reps (the Sec/Treas in MCO and MKE). Together these 10 pilots comprise the "MEC".

They are line pilots so can't run the union on a daily basis, so they elect an MEC Chairman (Linden Hilman) and MEC Vice-Chairman (Todd Ortscheid) to run the daily activities of the union office, appoint committee chairman, interact with ALPA Legal, Company management, etc. The idea is that the people who DIRECT the union (the MEC status reps) are active line pilots who have their ears to the ground and always know what's going on out on the line. They then direct the MEC Chair and Vice Chair on broad goals and policies, that Chair and Vice Chair carry it out.

So the pilots didn't elect TO, nor did they remove him. The status reps (MEC) did that.

As far as your fears about ALPA involvement... I know where your coming from, really I do, but there's really no reason for fear here. ALPA National doesn't talk to us. They talk to our MC and they talk to our status reps and MEC Chair and Vice-Chair. We get our updates from the MEC and NOTHING is being said to us except that we will participate in the process as agreed and in good faith, hoping to come up with a mutually-agreed SLI. That's it.

The only people saying anything more than that are line pilots on our internal message board, and even that has almost disappeared since our MEC asked us (politely) to STHU.

No one's riling anyone up on our side of the table. Actually, our pilots are worried that your union officials are riling YOUR pilots up to accept nothing less than a Swingling Solution. Funny how we're both worried about the same thing on the opposite side of the table.

 

[Lear70]

VP of ALPA National.... I'm told

Not exactly. He was V.P. of the EXECUTIVE COUNCIL at National as a function of his Vice-Chair status.

At ALPA National, all the Vice-Chairman of each airline make up the "Executive Council", a board that reports to ALPA National on the status of each airline and directs ALPA National on certain issues.

TO was elected V.P. of the Executive Council, and will continue in this role for his 3-year term or until our ALPA council is officially disbanded after ATN pilots fall under SWAPA representation after integration is complete, whichever happens first.

 

[-9Capt]

The only people saying anything more than that are line pilots on our internal message board, and even that has almost disappeared since our MEC asked us (politely) to STHU.

No one's riling anyone up on our side of the table. Actually, our pilots are worried that your union officials are riling YOUR pilots up to accept nothing less than a Swingling Solution. Funny how we're both worried about the same thing on the opposite side of the table.

very true.

 

[redflyer65]

Lear,

Just to be clear, we on the SW side have heard nothing from our leadership. There is absolutely no sabre rattling of any kind, it's been crickets. (plenty of others on here can verify that)

The TO change at this point of the game is rather thunderous. I hope that cooler heads will prevail on your side of the fence, this does not give the impression that there is a steady had at the tiller. Good luck.

RF

 

[texman]

True, very, very quite.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

Just to be clear, we on the SW side have heard nothing from our leadership. There is absolutely no sabre rattling of any kind, it's been crickets. (plenty of others on here can verify that)

That's good to hear. Makes us feel better that it's just being quietly worked out by our MC/NC's. :beer:

The TO change at this point of the game is rather thunderous. I hope that cooler heads will prevail on your side of the fence, this does not give the impression that there is a steady had at the tiller. Good luck.

RF

Well, the vote to remove TO was 7:1 and the letter that came out was signed by all but ONE of the ten MEC reps, so I would say the direction of our union is pretty steady. When everyone's on one page except one person, I'd say there's a pretty clear sense of direction inside the MEC, and that's who's "steering the ship", but that's just my experience with an ALPA structure. Others might have a different take on it.

 

[Noserider76]

Tranny

Does that make you a Swabby or a Luvy?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Who exactly recalled him?
What's the process? Do all members get a vote? Or just the board? I can't imagine you can take someone who was elected by the pilots and recall him w/o their consent at some point-

The LEC officers.
They make a recall motion at the MEC meeting.
The rank and file do not vote.
MEC officers are not elected by the rank and file. They are appointed by the LEC officers.

with this acquisition goes back to a uninformed concern I've had all along: what is alpa national's motivation to facilitate this in a smooth way- a few well placed billable hours and they can create discord in a major competitor's ranks and can stretch this SLI out and keep collecting dues for up to 2 years.

The only valid point in this whole quote is that all Unions are concerned when it comes to loss of dues money. However, that's becomes a budgetary concern as opposed to a tactical concern.

It's my understanding that ALPA has spent more $$ on AT than it's collected by a long shot- so why wouldn't they do this? Why not create big expectations? Why not create a "fight" inside every AT pilot?

Again, this quote illustrates a major lack of understanding on how the MCF works. ALPA has spent HUGE money on some regional airlines that they will NEVER hope to recoup via those pilot dues. But, that's not how ALPA works. Anyone who has ANY ALPA volunteer experience understands that the dues from the Major airlines support the fights that happen in the Regionals/Nationals.

It seems they have a responsibility to weaken us as much as possible to the other airline's members.

What does this even mean?

Again- this isn't based in reality, but my own fears- but if the best alternative is to get AAI pilots on the list unified and receiving Wn wages- why would ALPA want that? At the very least they'd be expediting the cutoff date for their dues.

No kidding it isn't based in reality. ALPA is concerned with with protecting the rights/interests of the pilots they represent...AAI pilots. Sometimes that means taking care and time to do the job right.

Don't forget there are long range goals too. 1500 pilots who are satisfied ALPA members could be the seed planted in SWAPA that convinces them to eventually merge with ALPA.

 

[waveflyer]

Deleted- too much hypothetical

 

[texman]

Merge with ALPA. NEVER!

 

[Fubijaakr]

Merge with ALPA. NEVER!

I admit it is a real longshot. But never say never.

You never know when business reverses could happen to SWA and management becomes less SWAPA friendly.

SWA is on top of the world today, but TWA/Pan Am/Eastern were in the same place once upon a time.

 

[SWA/FO]

Don't forget there are long range goals too. 1500 pilots who are satisfied ALPA members could be the seed planted in SWAPA that convinces them to eventually merge with ALPA.

We drug test, you know!

 

[PCL_128]

Not exactly. He was V.P. of the EXECUTIVE COUNCIL at National as a function of his Vice-Chair status.

At ALPA National, all the Vice-Chairman of each airline make up the "Executive Council", a board that reports to ALPA National on the status of each airline and directs ALPA National on certain issues.

TO was elected V.P. of the Executive Council, and will continue in this role for his 3-year term or until our ALPA council is officially disbanded after ATN pilots fall under SWAPA representation after integration is complete, whichever happens first.

Not quite right.

Vice Chairs don't hold any office at National by virtue of their MEC officer positions.

The Executive Council is made up of all of the Executive Vice Presidents (EVPs). There are only 9 EVPs, and they are elected by their individual election groups. The biggest airlines, like DAL, have their own EVP. The smaller carriers, like AirTran, Comair, and Alaska, are grouped together, which evens out the number of pilots that each EVP represents. For example, the Group B3 EVP represents AirTran, Spirit, Comair, Compass, Capital, and North American. They are elected every two years at the Board of Directors meeting. The Council's job is basically to oversee the Association's finances, make decisions on things like litigation or settlements, draft policy changes, etc.

The recalled pilot in question was the Vice Chairman at AirTran, but also holds a separate ALPA national position as EVP. That position continues.

 

[redflyer65]

Jimmy likes Elaine.

 

[bendover]

lear 70 . you need to stop posting on the forums. and zip it.

 

[Lear70]

lear 70 . you need to stop posting on the forums. and zip it.

Thanks.

 

[ASADFW7]

This removal bodes well for a negotiated solution.

 

[texman]

I admit it is a real longshot. But never say never.

You never know when business reverses could happen to SWA and management becomes less SWAPA friendly.

SWA is on top of the world today, but TWA/Pan Am/Eastern were in the same place once upon a time.

I agree.