Netjets - The final stop?

[CA1900]

I am a 121 guy that is eyeballing NetJets. NetJets has a base where I live. I am currently commuting offline to work which is a real pain in the rear.

I commuted for several years with my last company, which has a bad track record for closing crew bases every time I move to one. :0 I feel your pain!

Can someone try and explain the benefits of a 7 on 7 off sched vs. a typical 121 sched with 15 days off?

For a commuter especially, it's a no-brainer. Instead of coming to work way early in the morning or the night before your trip, you show up at your chosen airport on your first workday, at the time assigned by 6pm the evening prior. That's it. Crashpads really don't exist here, and those extra nights at home before and after tripsadd up, believe me. My particular favorite was getting 3-on, 1 off, 3-on at the airline. Good luck going home and back!

Anyway, once you show up at work, you're on their time. If there's a plane there, you might take it. If it's at a nearby town, you might get a rental car or a taxi/limo. Farther than that, you'll get on an airline flight. In any case, all of it is done on your duty day, and on the company's dime. Ironically, riding on airlines is the biggest hassle we usually deal with! We do earn frequent-flier miles with those airline flights, though, so our vacations are all on real, positive-space tickets. No trying to beg for a ride with your family in tow, either.

... beg for ride home and occastionally check three different cities to fly into and rent a car if I can't go direct to my home.

Yep, been there. Nothing like a $100 rental car to get to your own car.

Our new contract has an interesting provision in it: If you finish your tour and are scheduled to airline home from some place you want to explore, you can get off duty right then and there, and book a ticket home (or wherever) at your leisure. The company will reimburse you up to what they would have paid to get you home on your normal last day. So if you end up in a town where you have family, for example, you can stay the night there and go home on your own time, but on the company's dime. Pretty nice.

Does it seem like you spend your 7 days off catching up on the stuff you couldn't do on your 7 on, ie, mowing the lawn, car repairs etc.

About the first day home is kind of my "recovery day," just loafing around and relaxing. After that, I take care of things around the house, as you said. 7 days off is really nice.

Most importanly spending time with the wife and kids?

Can't speak for the kids (don't have any), but it's real nice spending a whole week at home with the wife. It gives her a break from stuff around the house, too, since I'm here to take care of a few things while I'm at home. By day 7, she's ready for me to go to work -- It works out well for us.

Also on day one when does it typically start?

It depends on the airplane you're assigned. I'm in the Citation Excel, which has Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday start days. They're on a two week cycle, so while I start my workday on a Tuesday, somebody else is starting his week off on that same Tuesday. The start days and schedules are fixed for an entire year, so if you don't want to bid off of a schedule, you'll know your days on and off for the next year, which is really nice. (Training days may slide a work week a few days one way or another, though, but that's only a few events out of the year.)

Do you have to go in the night before to be in position for day one, meaning an early show so you have to commute in the night before therefore commuting on an off day?

Absolutely not. You'll be briefed for a start time on your first day by 6pm the day prior. It won't change. As the company has to pay hourly overtime for any hours before 8am on your first day, my start times are normally at or after 8, unless there's a real need for me to be out early. I can count on one hand the number of before-8 reports I've had in the past year.

If you volunteer to go in a day early or stay a day longer, that's an extra work day, and would pay an extra day-and-a-half's pay -- $468.75 for a newhire. But that's only if you volunteer, and then only if the company has a need for you and takes you up on it.

One last question on your layovers do you typically have time to workout, go for a run, grab a beer (not at the same time)?

Normally yes, although with a minimum turn of 10 hours, sometimes the beer is out. :bawling: Most of our hotels have decent workout rooms and such, so you won't even have to leave the hotel if you don't want to.

Most of my turns average around 12 hours -- some longer, some shorter. Usually during each tour, I'll get at least one longer overnight, which helps me rest and recuperate for the week. (And if I get really worn down, I'll make the fatigue call and get 14+ hours to get back up to speed.)

Hope that helps!

 

[RadioClash]

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

 

[gunfyter]

Im 121 Captain at "no name" airline. I have 3500 total time, and My Dad and My Brother are at Continental....The recuiter says Im on the short list at CAL, But times have changed and I have 40 years to give to a Company. I would live in Houston and be based at home if I went to CAL.

My question is......since I have an "in" at CAL, should I try my luck and go to the Major, or go to NETJETS, because all I hear are great things about that place. Im 24 and have a long career, and I never want to commute ever again. thanks

Crystal ball says ... 5-7 yr upgrade @ NJ. Whats it look like @ Continental? Which one will most likely still be around in 40 years?

I would probably go with first one to hire me ... leaning toward Continental. If you go to NJA keep your stuff in with Continental but once you make PIC you will probably not want to go back to 121. In the mean time you see what NJA is like while building seniority.

Keep in mind there are many here furloughed from Majors who are refusing recall .... deciding to stay put.

 

[CRJ200pilot]

Thanks for the quick response. CAL upgrade depends. I met a guy who upgraded after 3 years but he will be on RSV in Newark for 10-12 years.

 

[kman]

My log book program averages my overnights to about 12.1 hours. And 12.5 hours of duty. Also I m on the slave ship(Excel) so im sure that doesn't help. As far as working out, I used to work out all of the time. Now Im lucky to get one workout in a tour. As far as getting a beer, its a 12hr rule here so, its almost always cutting it close. I find myself a bit more tired here, than my previous 121 job it usually takes me two days to recover and catch up on things i need to do.

CRJ its up to you, I would interview at both and see who offers u the job first. But if you have a choice than It would depend on the type of flying, flexibility, QOL, aircraft and schedules you want to do. Your still young enough to recover from a furlough, and with being 24, your QOL and money down the road will probably be much nicer at CAL than NJ's. With that being said nja does have a lot to offer as well, flexible basing, free insurance, a bit more stability, better QOL and money off the bat, nice hotels, free airline and hotel stays. If it were me I would go to CAL. If it were me and I had offers at both, and I was willing to leave at one of Cal's bases for the rest of my life. I would go to Cal. There is a bit more money in it right now and the QOL will only get better down the road. When I turn 50, I have 23 yr at NJA ( If I stay ), I will still be on the 7n7(hopefully on the falcon) still doing the 7n7 averaging about 12.8 days a duty a month. 23 years at CAL should be able to offer day trips(nice to be home ever night to see the kids grow) , more money, nice long overnights, and greater QOL on and off the road. Its a crapshoot, good luck to ya, both companies have a lot to offer.

 

[igneousy2]

Just a couple of suggestions...

First - How long it's taking people to upgrade today has very little to do with how long it will take you to upgrade. For Continental in particular, the upgrades are going relatively junior now because they didn't hire for awhile...then they went through rapid growth. These early hires are benefiting from that, however, they have been hiring A LOT of pilots recently. For a quick upgrade I think a better bet would be Delta. In any case the age 65 change just added at least 2-3 years to whatever upgrade a major airline pilot could have expected.

second...Twenty years is NOT senior at ANY major airline. Not to the extent that some of you are speaking. To be "senior" at a major airline at twenty years it means you have given up something significant...undesireable base, stayed FO, junior equipment, etc.

If you think you are going to hold an 8 day off line as a Captain with 20 years seniority at a major US airline you are dreaming.

I also think some of you are overemphasizing the end game dollars. With proper money management it is far more beneficial to make $100K a year when you are 28 then it is to make $200K a year when you are 55. Every $10,000 earned today is $109,000 in 30 years at an 8% ROI.

Good luck

 

[blueskies8]

Not to get too far off the subject but I have to ask this question as it has been raised by some of my friends as of late. These friends of mine think that I should think twice about leaving my company and going to NJA as it would be a pay cut and (most likely) a downgrade or parallel move in equipment with long upgrade times. I disagree with them and don't care about the pay cut, what equipment I am flying or what seat I am in. I just want a good QOL, a schedule and a stable career. Granted, I haven't been offered a job yet but before I go through the process I thought that I should get all the insight that I can. I have and still do view NetJets as a career company and goal.

To give you some info on my situation I am currently flying 91/135 PIC on a large cabin jet with a base salary around 100k. The owner of the company seems to be in it for the long run has some serious financial backing. I like the people I fly with, the trips that we do and the clients that we fly including the owner. NJA just seems to have more to offer and to look forward to. I know most of you probably think that I have answered my own question here but I am curious as to what all of your thoughts are. My mind is already made up so your comments won't sway my decision but because I don't see a lot of people taking large pay cuts and giving up hard to get corporate gigs to go to NJA I have to ask, what would you do in my situation?

Thanks for the replies in advance.

Blueskies8

 

[kman]

second...Twenty years is NOT senior at ANY major airline. Not to the extent that some of you are speaking. To be "senior" at a major airline at twenty years it means you have given up something significant...undesireable base, stayed FO, junior equipment, etc.

If you think you are going to hold an 8 day off line as a Captain with 20 years seniority at a major US airline you are dreaming.

I also think some of you are overemphasizing the end game dollars. With proper money management it is far more beneficial to make $100K a year when you are 28 then it is to make $200K a year when you are 55. Every $10,000 earned today is $109,000 in 30 years at an 8% ROI.

Good luck

First of all, I never said 20 years was a senior captain position. It is not junior though. Family friend with 16yrs at SWA holds day trips in BWI (His and my Hometown) He works about 9-11 days a month and makes about 180 ish if I remember right. Isn't SWA min days off 15-17 days for the most junior person on the list?

So your saying 20 year Captain on 73 or 320 any of the legacy carriers(ex. USair maybe) won't be able to hold a premium schedule? I think your very wrong. What Legacy do you or have worked for?

Any of the legacy carriers FO poistion top out at year 12 pay about (777 or 747) 135k ish and with 20 years of seniority you will pretty much be able to hold any schedule you want. Year 14 at NJA is 137k working a 7n7. So your telling me a 20 year captain(737 etc) or Widebody FO wont be able to hold a better schedule than 15 days off a month?

Like I said in previous post, I am only targeting airlines with bases I am willing to leave in. And the previous guy lives in HOU, his hometown, are you telling him he won't have a greater QOL and schedule at CAL?

And as far as money goes, how much is your happiness worth? If your not happy at the job ur at, should you stay just because its a good job? I'm willing to roll the dice and see what happens.

PS. Maybe u should check the schedules and pa.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=107349

 

[kman]

igne, do u work for alaska? might be y u think 20 years doesn't get u too much. anyways looks like ur not exactly happy where ur at so maybe you should be looking for another job as well.

 

[igneousy2]

igne, do u work for alaska? might be y u think 20 years doesn't get u too much. anyways looks like ur not exactly happy where ur at so maybe you should be looking for another job as well.

At Alaska, If you only have 20 years you are bidding in the bottom 1/3 of line holders as a Captain in Seattle.

But before you shurg it off and say...well that's just Alaska...I won't go to Alaska...keep in mind that when these 20 year guys/gals were hired, the upgrade at Alaska was less than 5 years.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that you have to look at it on a deeper level than simply "upgrade right now is X" or 20 years gets you ____ at whatever airline which is what a lot of pilots seem to do.

Anyway, good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[kman]

I have nothing against alaska or the bases u have, but how big is ur pilot group? 1500? It really doesn't compare. From what I heard, 20 years at most of the legacys are pretty senior and have pretty nice schedules. All I'm saying is nja is not for everybody and at least for me I could be much happier doing a 15 day trip line with 20 years left flying than to be gone for 15 days a month on the 7n7.People. Good luck to all the guys who choose either way.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

inferiority complexes "brag" the most instead of enjoying alleged "riches" lol

I have nothing against alaska or the bases u have, but how big is ur pilot group? 1500? It really doesn't compare. From what I heard, 20 years at most of the legacys are pretty senior and have pretty nice schedules. All I'm saying is nja is not for everybody and at least for me I could be much happier doing a 15 day trip line with 20 years left flying than to be gone for 15 days a month on the 7n7.People. Good luck to all the guys who choose either way.

There's no reasoning with itty bitty baby egos...they NEED to prove their inner demons and outside considered views wrong. Guess I got off track on another topic's thread, should have posted this here where it is more applicable:

NJA would be the last place I would ever go...the point is to move up, not laterally between fractionals which fluctuate year to year between who is the top paid, and who is not...everything cycles. Anyone leaving the fracs needs to have a LONG TERM plan with regard to career advancement, and flying little planes and being gone for an entire week at a time, is NOT something people want to do when they reach 50 (unless they have the entire rest of the MONTH off). I don't sacrifice the long term for short-term, short sighted, lateral "goals."
Ever wonder why the NJA guys STILL have to be on the boards 24/7 to convince everyone how "great" they have it, and how much better they think their job is than anywhere else? For starters:
- The IBB is NOT as great as they are trying to convince people, or it would not be necessary for every single one of them to insert "overtime" into the equation in discussions about what they made (which, in itself is the most tacky ill-bred trait one can imagine)
- Deep down, while they are PROJECTING about guys who they feel only have "egos that need the big jets," it is like a billboard to the world how envious THEY really are, because if they weren't it wouldn't occur to them to CARE what others want to do.
- The trophy major guys they managed to get there for whatever reason, are the very limited EXCEPTION, not the rule, so there goes that... why ARE they such a trophy for NJA anyways? Because it helps massage THEIR egos that someone left a better long term career to go to theirs.
I would venture to guess that there are more people at NJA (referencing those with higher flight time) that have blemishes on their records and/or lack of a degree that have affected their ABILITY to go to the "MAJORS." From what is left you can then factor in those with ex-wives and / or excess children that can NOT make the brief initial sacrifices required in starting with the majors.
You can all toot your own horns all you want, but you're only impressing those with much lower time who aren't really fully in the know...or those similarly limited in their ability to advance. It is a decent job compared to your category, but like baseball, you can gloat all you want about your minor league status, but deep down you'll always wonder "what if" you got to the majors, especially now that they are hiring again. I might think about a fractional again if a major laid me off...but that would only be a last resort if there were no real corp gigs around (people that can afford whole planes and their own ops/management teams)...but I would still have that golden seniority number as opposed to a dead end frac job that's so-so until the contract expires and the next big jet pass idea comes up and wipes out the current idea of frac ownership.
Just the facts, now let your little egos flame away about how great you'll have it "forever and ever", lol.:beer: The ONLY ones you can claim a "one up" on for the MOMENT is FLOPS so you go at it all you can (even though you guys were the real brunt of jokes not long ago)..and that is only because NJA pilots have been on a MISSION to MAKE it that way and make the widespread opinion of FLOPS what it now is. The only reason these mgt scumbags continue to take and take is due to YOUR incessant antagonizing and the little boy fights between them and your mouthpieces at IBT. You CREATED the problems at FLOPS, then proceeded to ruin the whole company's rep...your "brothers'" included.

:bomb:

 

[blueskies8]

VOR,

I have read some of your other posts and I'm not sure why I am responding to you other than I felt compelled to share some information as I am not a NJA pilot.

I know many guys that had major 121 careers and are now at NetJets and feel that the NJA in many ways is a better company than UAL, AA etc. I have to agree with them from where I stand but thats not to say that I think all major 121 carriers are bad companies, there not.

I respect a company that airlines you from your home (so you don't have to live in a major metro area), pays 100% medical, feeds you three times a day, pays competitive wages and still gives you a minimum of 12 days off per month. On the other hand of the major 121 retirees that I know including my father several have had the pension carpet pulled out from underneath them and basically forced to work beyond 60. I know a couple of guys at UAL right now who would never give up their seniority but wish they had gone to NJA years ago. Timing is everything and everyone has their preference.

Either way, anywhere a pilot can look forward to going to work, feel job security, have a schedule, enjoy time with their family while providing for them and on top of that fly an airplane is in my opinion a "major" in this industry. NetJets is the "majors" for many and a place that I would like to hang my hat.

Regards

 

[Voice Of Reason]

VOR,

I have read some of your other posts and I'm not sure why I am responding to you other than I felt compelled to share some information as I am not a NJA pilot.

I know many guys that had major 121 careers and are now at NetJets and feel that the NJA in many ways is a better company than UAL, AA etc. I have to agree with them from where I stand but thats not to say that I think all major 121 carriers are bad companies, there not.

I respect a company that airlines you from your home (so you don't have to live in a major metro area), pays 100% medical, feeds you three times a day, pays competitive wages and still gives you a minimum of 12 days off per month. On the other hand of the major 121 retirees that I know including my father several have had the pension carpet pulled out from underneath them and basically forced to work beyond 60. I know a couple of guys at UAL right now who would never give up their seniority but wish they had gone to NJA years ago. Timing is everything and everyone has their preference.

Either way, anywhere a pilot can look forward to going to work, feel job security, have a schedule, enjoy time with their family while providing for them and on top of that fly an airplane is in my opinion a "major" in this industry. NetJets is the "majors" for many and a place that I would like to hang my hat.

Regards

...and YOUR type is worthy of respect...and I indeed respect the decision that is suitable for your individual circumstances. My post in in response to the wanna be alpha dogs who rabidly shoot down any choices OTHER than NJA, and have to gloat about their perceived "riches" like those who have the double-wides in the trailer park. THOSE types are the trash I am referring to, and not worthy of ANY respect. The outward expressions which stem from their inner demons are what cause the increasingly negative impression of ALL frac pilots in the profession, especially NJA's. Unfortunately, their type is the mouthy minority and setting the tone.
As far as "many" giving up 121 carers, don't believe the hype they are posting here. I believe that once you subtract out any major retirees from the equation, and the circumstances discussed in the other post, that would not leave "many."

 

[realityman]

Actually VOR, you are flat out wrong. As an IOE captain at NJA, we do have "many" who are giving up careers at the majors to be with us. Quite a few are actively leaving JetBlue to come to us.
True, we aren't seeing any migration whatsoever from Southwest over to NJA, but then again, SWA is a great place to work and I wouldn't expect to see that happening. Same with FedEx and UPS.
However, we have a great many pilots who were furloughed from the majors (yes, all the big boys: UAL, AA, DAL, CAL, etc...) who are being given the chance to come back and who are turning it down. So yes, plenty of 121 guys who, while they didn't leave of their own volition, are nevertheless choosing a career with NJA over the majors. So yes, 'many' are giving up careers at the majors to fly with us. How many is 'many'? Taking a SWAG, I'd say in the hundreds anyway. Possibly many hundreds. I can't remember the last time I did IOE with a person coming from a corporate background. Plenty from the regionals (probably the majority), but lots and lots who aren't taking the recall, or who have actually left the majors on their own to fly for us.

Sorry to burst your "fractionals are filled with losers and rejects from the aviation world" bubble. By the way, I could tell you a few stories of folks who couldn't cut it here and now work for the majors.

Personally, I don't care where anyone chooses to hang their career hat. As long as you're happy with what you're doing, then you're doing well. As I've mentioned previously, I don't know if you even work for a fractional, but if you do, you sound absolutely miserable, doing it. I truly hope you find a place that you enjoy working at, whether it's frac or 121, pax or cargo, union or non-union. Pick what floats your boat and enjoy!

As for the folks who are always boasting about this and that at NJA, well, they're happy and are proud of what they have. True, it does get a bit old listening to them always saying that Netjets is the ONLY good place to work, but hey, maybe that's a good thing that we've reached a point where they can think like that. It wasn't all that long ago that most everyone sounded like the FLOPS guys do now.

As I've also mentioned previously, it's also impossible to please everyone. You say others have an increasingly negative opinion about NJA pilots. Sigh. Too bad. People hated us before because we were the pimps and whores of aviation, dragging the bar down for the whole industry. Now it looks like they hate us because we're successful, and actually have something to brag about. Guess we need to just focus on making ourselves happy and not worry about anyone else.