NetJets International Interview

[AA717driver]

So they aren't even trying to dump on management, this is just a seat grab...TC

 

[Majik]

So they aren't even trying to dump on management, this is just a seat grab...TC

No, just the opposite. It will be a "dump" on management. It is also an attempt to take back control of seats that were taken by non-union pilots. I don't think NJI pilots took those jobs specifically because they were non-union jobs, but they had to know it was a way for the company to try to work around our weak scope language.
Let's say you fly for Delta. Let's say management created a subsidiary and called it Song, and hired non-union workers to fill those seats. Don't you think the Delta pilots would want to try to fix that? Would you be unhappy with the Delta guys if they tried to regain those seats that went to Song?
It's definitely more about management than it is about the pilots. Granted, I've talked to many NJI pilots that express a very negative attitude toward NJA pilots, so I won't lose very much sleep if they are upset that we may pursue single carrier status and add their aircraft to NJA's fleet. They are welcome to come with the aircraft if they desire or they can choose to leave. Doesn't really matter to me. You don't think they would expect to have a seniority number higher than any pilot that has been paying dues, do you?
Bottom line, we're just trying to legally correct something the company did. It will be up to the courts to decide. If that makes us "boogey men" in your eyes, then so be it.

 

[NJA Capt]

Let's say you fly for Delta. Let's say management created a subsidiary and called it Song, and hired non-union workers to fill those seats. Don't you think the Delta pilots would want to try to fix that? Would you be unhappy with the Delta guys if they tried to regain those seats that went to Song?

Lets streamline this analogy a little.

Delta creates a non-union division "Song" that will only fly B-747-400s on the Pacific rim. They decide to hire from outside because Boeing said that none of Delta's pilots can handle a plane with 4 engines. They pay "Song" Captains 3 times what mainline B777 Capts are paid (same routes).

Do you thing Delta mainline (union) pilots would try to merge the flying?
Your darn right they would!

Would Mainline pilots want the same pay?
Darn right they would!

Do you think Mainline pilots would want the new (non-union, non-dues paying) pilots
integrated by DOH?
N-E-V-E-R!!!!!!!!!!

Would they go for stapling?
You bet you last dollar they would.

Now, in the post above, substitute:
NJA for Delta/Mainline
NJI for Song
Falcon/C750 for B777
Gulfstream for B747
Europe/Asia for Pacific rim



For comparison:
NJA has approx 330 aircraft, 1900 pilots, 11 types, started 1986
NJI has approx 50 aircraft, 300 pilots, 2 types, started 1995

 

[da90drivr]

NJA Capt,

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

NJA operates many different fleet types and they continue to buy aircraft catering to people who want shares in that size aircraft and hiring new pilots to fly them. NJI flies G4 and 5's. I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvment in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

I don't have a dog in this fight but is interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. Your scope clause was weak when NJI was formed (your prob. not theirs) I am sure the pilots did not take those jobs in an effort to take "your flying". You are trying to fix your scope problems but why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules?
If you think the courts will just give it to you refer to Mesa / Freedom airlines. Freedom was negotiated away with contract consessions.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Majik]

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

Nope, and some NJA pilots left for NJI. So, what's your point, that union pilots were not prevented from applying for the non-union division that Santulli created? I guess there would be nothing preventing the Delta mainline pilots from taking the Song jobs in the above anology.

NJA operates many different fleet types and they continue to buy aircraft catering to people who want shares in that size aircraft and hiring new pilots to fly them. NJI flies G4 and 5's. I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvment in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

Same way we would have felt if Santulli and Boeing would have prevented NJA from operating the BBJ (which they tried and failed). Every jet that goes to NJI (or any other subsidiary that Santulli might create) is one less jet that could and should be operated by NJA pilots. Were we wrong to fight for the BBJ to be operated by NJA?

I don't have a dog in this fight but is interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. Your scope clause was weak when NJI was formed (your prob. not theirs) I am sure the pilots did not take those jobs in an effort to take "your flying". You are trying to fix your scope problems but why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots.

We're not screwing them. They can stay with the planes if they want to. They can remain in their seats if they want to. Yes, the scope clause was weak then and Santulli took advantage of it. Now, if a judge thinks the single carrier petetion applies and is fair, then we will take advantage of it. It's business. We are just playing Santulli's game and using the available rules. If we have no case, then we have no case. Play your "Screw Card" evenly to both sides, not just in favor of Santulli.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules? If you think the courts will just give it to you refer to Mesa / Freedom airlines. Freedom was negotiated away with contract consessions.
I look forward to your reply.

Don't know. We may pass on the single carrier deal for more money. I'm interested to see if there's a counter-offer and what it is. As far as scope, it's worthless if we don't get a significant raise because we would still be one of the lowest paid fractionals. The higher the raise, the more important scope becomes to protect ourselves from being "duplicated". To answer your question, we won't really know what we'll get unless we put the cards on the table and see what the company is willing to give in to. Wouldn't you agree that it would be foolish to not consider playing all of the cards we have in our hand and leave money on the table?

 

[NJA Capt]

NJA Capt,

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

No way to transfer between companies. We must quit first then interview with NJI like everyone else.

I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvement in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

Boeing stipulated things too, but they were still flown by njA pilots.

…interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. … why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots?

Why do you think we are trying to screw them? We have never said anything about “getting back at the pilots” or the company for that matter. We never said we wanted to take their planes and kick their pilots to the curb. There would surely be a fence protecting THEM and US during a merger. From a business standpoint it only makes sense to combine us. Why have two operations/organizations flying the same passengers under the same name? As someone said before, if we are to be totally separate, then we should not be allowed to cover their trips and visa versa.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules?

I think we have given concessions already.
Our union negotiated the 7/7 schedule….guess who else got it?

Our union hotel committee arranged hotel rates and transportation…..Guess who else utilizes it?

Our union arranged the “crew lounge” in our hotel in TEB…..guess who else uses it?

MESA was also forced to combine operations a few years ago, instead of running a dozen separate operations.

I say if we are going to be the same family, let’s act like the same family.
One name, one roof.

 

[da90drivr]

I think we have given concessions already.
Our union negotiated the 7/7 schedule….guess who else got it?

Our union hotel committee arranged hotel rates and transportation…..Guess who else utilizes it?

Our union arranged the “crew lounge” in our hotel in TEB…..guess who else uses it?

MESA was also forced to combine operations a few years ago, instead of running a dozen separate operations.

I say if we are going to be the same family, let’s act like the same family.
One name, one roof.

What you mention above are not concessions they are benefits.

The hotel rates your hotel committee arranged benefit the company not the other pilot group.

I was asking what you are willing to give back to the company to merge the two companies the pilot groups and aircraft.

Mesa merged operations but had three separate pilot groups. CCair, Mesa and Freedom. Freedom was eliminated after major concessions by the pilot group during contract negotiations.

re. the screwing the other pilot group, I was referring to those who wanted the planes, the seats and a staple with no reference to fences.

 

[Majik]

I was asking what you are willing to give back to the company to merge the two companies the pilot groups and aircraft.

NOTHING!!! The question is, "What is the company willing to give NJA pilots to prevent us from pursuing legal remedies that would force the merger of the two subsidiaries."
Look, if a court decides that NJI and NJA are similar operations, operated by the same company, then it will rule that the two should combine. That would be a win for NJA pilots.
If Santulli decides he doesn't want his NJI operations combined with NJA, then he may want to play "Let's Make A Deal." We will definitely consider his offer. Either way, NJA pilots benefit. So to answer your question - We Don't Have To Give Up Anything and I'm surprised that you would think that we would or should.

 

[da90drivr]

NOTHING!!! The question is, "What is the company willing to give NJA pilots to prevent us from pursuing legal remedies that would force the merger of the two subsidiaries."
Look, if a court decides that NJI and NJA are similar operations, operated by the same company, then it will rule that the two should combine. That would be a win for NJA pilots.
If Santulli decides he doesn't want his NJI operations combined with NJA, then he may want to play "Let's Make A Deal." We will definitely consider his offer. Either way, NJA pilots benefit. So to answer your question - We Don't Have To Give Up Anything and I'm surprised that you would think that we would or should.

What is the plan if the court decides your operations are different?
You seem to have alot of confidence in the court ruling in your favor. With this threat looming over managements head why are they not at the table trying to make a deal?
You have very little bargining power under the RLA until you are released for "self help".

In a perfect world pilots would not have to give up anything for decent work rules, pay and benefits. I do hope you get an industry leading contract. It gives the next group in line a better jumping off point.

 

[NJA Capt]

The hotel rates your hotel committee arranged benefit the company not the other pilot group.

Mesa merged operations but had three separate pilot groups. CCair, Mesa and Freedom. Freedom was eliminated after major concessions by the pilot group during contract negotiations.

True, rates benefit the company, what I was refering to is the type hotel (Embassy, Hilton, Hyatt), free movies, breakfast, internet, exclusive transportation for NetJet Crews etc.

I'm not real sure what you mean by your Mesa analogy.....Everybody Mesa touches is eliminated. Look at it the other way, Mesa was not allowed to continue operating CCA, Florida Gulf, etc seperately. They had to combine under a common ticket....that's what we want.