Netjets Globals

[acaTerry]

Acaterry,

You're wasting your breath. These guys have been told over and over again that staffing is done by the number of aircraft, not the number of duty days. Some simply refuse to listen to it. It is your contractual right to bid the 18 day. It wouldn't matter if all of us went on the 15 day, there would still be no recalls until after the CBA is signed.

Sorry guys, but that is the simple truth of it.

Prince Harry can't be gone soon enough. And then hopefully these guys will get their recall, to a better NJA than the one they had before.
In the meantime, I'll just have to accept that being on the 18 day makes me a bad guy despite my participation in the voluntary measures and the donations in both cash and Atlantic Bucks to the furloughee's Christmas Fund each year.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Prince Harry can't be gone soon enough. And then hopefully these guys will get their recall, to a better NJA than the one they had before.
In the meantime, I'll just have to accept that being on the 18 day makes me a bad guy despite my participation in the voluntary measures and the donations in both cash and Atlantic Bucks to the furloughees.

I think myself and most of the other outcasts realize that airframes will dictate when we come back(amongst other things). From my highly scientific analysis on the dark side of the union page, is that the majority are worried about not being sold down the river with modifications to the existing recall rights language in a new contract. As long as that portion doesn't get jammed up our arse, then by all means fly the 18 day schedule and provide a wage you bargained for years back. It doesn't matter what I say or what anyone else on here says, you guys gotta do what you gotta do, whether I like it or not. The unity or lack therof thing for furloughed guys and gals is laughable, but I'm not gonna hold the 18 day thing against you. Extended days are another story...........

 

[OPECJet]

So much of that post reeks of "pay your dues, kid".

No one asked for an explanation of why you were working the 18 day. No one here knew you were on it. No one here really cared one way or another. YOU decided to come on here and say you were. You gained the negative replies you were seeking and you're lashing out. Feel better? I hope so. You obviously needed an outlet.

Fisch, you're right about staffing. To a point. We know the company would operate as close to 5 pilots per frame as they possibly can. Those 5 pilots per frame translate into certain number of available work days. When the number of available work days required is above what is available, recalls would be required. The 18 day schedule increases the number of available work days with fewer pilots required. This is likely built into the 5 per frame requirement, but I think even the company knows it needs 6 plus per frame. In that respect 18 day participants ABSOLUTELY effect the overall number of furloughed pilots. NJASAP has repeatedly stated to us (semi-privately) they will not address the active group on the issue for fear of being sued.

 

[fischman]

So much of that post reeks of "pay your dues, kid".

No one asked for an explanation of why you were working the 18 day. No one here knew you were on it. No one here really cared one way or another. YOU decided to come on here and say you were. You gained the negative replies you were seeking and you're lashing out. Feel better? I hope so. You obviously needed an outlet.

Fisch, you're right about staffing. To a point. We know the company would operate as close to 5 pilots per frame as they possibly can. Those 5 pilots per frame translate into certain number of available work days. When the number of available work days required is above what is available, recalls would be required. The 18 day schedule increases the number of available work days with fewer pilots required. This is likely built into the 5 per frame requirement, but I think even the company knows it needs 6 plus per frame. In that respect 18 day participants ABSOLUTELY effect the overall number of furloughed pilots. NJASAP has repeatedly stated to us (semi-privately) they will not address the active group on the issue for fear of being sued.

Again, days aren't the deciding staffing level. Let me be perfectly clear... The staffing is dependants on airframes, not days. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SCHEDULE A PERSON BIDS. More planes=more pilots. Less planes=less pilots. No CBA=no recalls.

The CBA isn't going to be signed for years. YEARS.

These are facts. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[acaTerry]

So much of that post reeks of "pay your dues, kid".

No one asked for an explanation of why you were working the 18 day. No one here knew you were on it. No one here really cared one way or another. YOU decided to come on here and say you were. You gained the negative replies you were seeking and you're lashing out. Feel better? I hope so. You obviously needed an outlet.

OPEC,
You can see it all over the Frac forum threads that people are casting blame on those on the 18 day schedule for the furloughs. And if you go back a few pages, you will see that these two posters in particular had it coming from me by their personal attacks. This stemmed from where I simply implied, after reading yet another post that the pilots on the 18 day schedule are the reason for the furloughees not getting called back, that there are pilots on that schedule by necessity. Then they got like little kids throwing sand. And they got from my post what they asked for: a well deserved chewing out.
I'm not a "pay your dues, kid" kind of guy by any stretch. But what I can not stand is someone who gets a bump in the road and blames everyone else.
Hell, I feel pretty bad having written letters and recommended so many guys that are now furloughed. And you can ask them (I'll even PM you a way to contact some of them) yourself, I am FAR from the kind of guy to say "tough sh1t, pay your dues".
I just can't stand guys like those particular two posters setting on personal attacks on someone who they know nothing about, nor have any reason to be mad at. I challenge you to go back to page 18 or 19, which is where I entered the thread, and find ANYTHING that lashes out before these two asked for it. By nature, I'm not someone to jump on someones case. But if they ask for it, they get it.

 

[imacdog]

Personal attack? No - just pointing out that you aren't the only person that gets the pleasure of dealing with life's issues. A lot of anger from you there Terry, maybe going back to the Encore would be beneficial to your well-being?

But hey, 40% of the pilot group on the 18-day schedule, apparentely everyone's working their butt off, of course that doesn't affect furloughs. Sounds like new math to me, but it is certainly one's contractual right to do so. And extend.

 

[hopalong]

OPEC,
You can see it all over the Frac forum threads that people are casting blame on those on the 18 day schedule for the furloughs. And if you go back a few pages, you will see that these two posters in particular had it coming from me by their personal attacks. This stemmed from where I simply implied, after reading yet another post that the pilots on the 18 day schedule are the reason for the furloughees not getting called back, that there are pilots on that schedule by necessity. Then they got like little kids throwing sand. And they got from my post what they asked for: a well deserved chewing out.
I'm not a "pay your dues, kid" kind of guy by any stretch. But what I can not stand is someone who gets a bump in the road and blames everyone else.
Hell, I feel pretty bad having written letters and recommended so many guys that are now furloughed. And you can ask them (I'll even PM you a way to contact some of them) yourself, I am FAR from the kind of guy to say "tough sh1t, pay your dues".


I just can't stand guys like those particular two posters setting on personal attacks on someone who they know nothing about, nor have any reason to be mad at. I challenge you to go back to page 18 or 19, which is where I entered the thread, and find ANYTHING that lashes out before these two asked for it. By nature, I'm not someone to jump on someones case. But if they ask for it, they get it.

acaterry,

Wow! You have your plate full! God bless you for helping your family and providing for your extended family. I only wish that the furloughed knew how united we are becoming and how we are fighting for the contract of our lives, and the future for them if they decide to return.

 

[acaTerry]

Personal attack? No - just pointing out that you aren't the only person that gets the pleasure of dealing with life's issues.

Yes, personal attack. "Said the guy is who is not furloughed" sounds pretty personal.

A lot of anger from you there Terry, maybe going back to the Encore would be beneficial to your well-being?

No anger. Simply showing you that people do what they have to do. You are way out of line blaming your fellow pilots for things that the company has done. And even though I've only been in the Gulfstream 7 months, I'm quite happy in it and am no hurry to return to the Encore.

But hey, 40% of the pilot group on the 18-day schedule, apparentely everyone's working their butt off, of course that doesn't affect furloughs. Sounds like new math to me, but it is certainly one's contractual right to do so. And extend.

No new math. It's the company formula of airframes and pilots. Period. Fisch made that pretty clear (not bad for a Red Sox fan).

My replies are above in red. Whatever, I give up. Stay mad at the world if it makes you feel better. Your enemy is the EMT, not us.

 

[acaTerry]

acaterry,

Wow! You have your plate full! God bless you for helping your family and providing for your extended family. I only wish that the furloughed knew how united we are becoming and how we are fighting for the contract of our lives, and the future for them if they decide to return.

God has blessed me. It just took me too long to realize it. A lot has happened in the past 6 months that changed my POV on a lot of things.
And I will say that nothing will get a "yes" vote from me until it makes a better job for those guys to come back to...whenever that is. I wish they knew that we DO care.

 

[OPECJet]

Again, days aren't the deciding staffing level. Let me be perfectly clear... The staffing is dependants on airframes, not days. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SCHEDULE A PERSON BIDS. More planes=more pilots. Less planes=less pilots. No CBA=no recalls.

The CBA isn't going to be signed for years. YEARS.

These are facts. Don't shoot the messenger.

No messenger shooting. You're partially right. Common sense says that staffing per frame is only part of the equation. Absolute staffing is driven by pilots per frame, available work days, and owner demand. If this weren't true, the company would not have been begging for scope relief.

OPEC,
You can see it all over the Frac forum threads that people are casting blame on those on the 18 day schedule for the furloughs. And if you go back a few pages, you will see that these two posters in particular had it coming from me by their personal attacks. This stemmed from where I simply implied, after reading yet another post that the pilots on the 18 day schedule are the reason for the furloughees not getting called back, that there are pilots on that schedule by necessity. Then they got like little kids throwing sand. And they got from my post what they asked for: a well deserved chewing out.
I'm not a "pay your dues, kid" kind of guy by any stretch. But what I can not stand is someone who gets a bump in the road and blames everyone else.
Hell, I feel pretty bad having written letters and recommended so many guys that are now furloughed. And you can ask them (I'll even PM you a way to contact some of them) yourself, I am FAR from the kind of guy to say "tough sh1t, pay your dues".
I just can't stand guys like those particular two posters setting on personal attacks on someone who they know nothing about, nor have any reason to be mad at. I challenge you to go back to page 18 or 19, which is where I entered the thread, and find ANYTHING that lashes out before these two asked for it. By nature, I'm not someone to jump on someones case. But if they ask for it, they get it.

I'll buy that. I've seen plenty of posts from you that reflect what I quoted.

I can understand your sentiment of the 18 day attack. Believe me when I tell you the anger is directed toward voluntary extended days, EBoard members on the 18 day, and the lack of comms from the union. Those are always the hot topics on the banished board since NJASAP decided to drive a wedge.

acaterry,

Wow! You have your plate full! God bless you for helping your family and providing for your extended family. I only wish that the furloughed knew how united we are becoming and how we are fighting for the contract of our lives, and the future for them if they decide to return.

Amen. I wish you the best.

Hopalong, we'll never get the message. We have no way of receiving it unless we run across a NJA pilot courtesy of our "union". I rarely see an airport these days but have run across four NJA pilots, all with encouraging things to say. Other furloughed guys have run across NJA pilots who didn't even realize there were guys on furlough. One of us was in a van with a crusty bastard complaining there weren't enough extended days available.

Until the union addresses the wedge between active and furloughed more of this garbage will happen. I figure LOTS of it will happen when / if we come back for a little while anyway. Thank NJASAP for it.

 

[acaTerry]

Any of you furloughees feel free to PM me anytime with questions or whatever. It may take me a few days to get back to you, but I will get back to you.
Remember the eBoard decisions don't necessarily reflect what we'd like to see happening (such as being locked up "outside").
And that goes for imacdog and RJBum. I don't hold anything against you guys. Frustration can cloud anyone.

 

[fischman]

No messenger shooting. You're partially right.

If by "partially right" you mean "well informed and knowing what I'm talking about" then, I agree.

Perhaps I wasn't clear???

Staffing is completely dependant on airframes, not duty days. That is the fact. It isn't partial. It is truth. Recalls WILL NOT HAPPEN until we increase the number of airframes and the CBA is signed. Bottom line. IT WOULD NOT MATTER IF EVERY PILOT WAS ON THE 15 DAY or the 18 day. It doesn't matter. There will not be recalls until the CBA is signed and we increase airframes.

Am I communicating?

 

[Xcorporate]

And while everybody is debating the staffing calculus Netjets has become irrelevant and an undesirable place to work.

I don't fault anybody for capitalizing and making what they can when they can. The tough love BS and salt in the wound lessons on staffing are getting boring.

Sorry but that's the simple truth, don't shoot the messenger.......

 

[imacdog]

So undesirable that attrition has spiked to 1.5% in the last year.

 

[BentOver]

Where they gonna go right now? Hiring hasn't exactly gone through the roof at legacy carriers.

I'd bet that the resumes will be at least going out when the time comes. Getting hired is a whole other story. Competition will be stiff.

 

[acaTerry]

Where they gonna go right now? Hiring hasn't exactly gone through the roof at legacy carriers.

I'd bet that the resumes will be at least going out when the time comes. Getting hired is a whole other story. Competition will be stiff.

You're very right about that. However, the opportunities are finally happening again. And as long as it isn't upped to 75 y/o, there will be a looooootttt of openings and opportunities.

 

[OPECJet]

If by "partially right" you mean "well informed and knowing what I'm talking about" then, I agree.

Perhaps I wasn't clear???

Staffing is completely dependant on airframes, not duty days. That is the fact. It isn't partial. It is truth. Recalls WILL NOT HAPPEN until we increase the number of airframes and the CBA is signed. Bottom line. IT WOULD NOT MATTER IF EVERY PILOT WAS ON THE 15 DAY or the 18 day. It doesn't matter. There will not be recalls until the CBA is signed and we increase airframes.

Am I communicating?

You're communicating, and you're only half right. If you're 100% correct, explain to me why 1.) the company hasn't furloughed down to 5 pilots per frame, and 2.) why the company wanted scope relief? Could it be owner demand and pilot availability DOES have something to do with overall pilot staffing?

No argument that recalls will only happen if and when airframes are added. You're dead wrong on staffing being completely driven by airframes, however.

Am I communicating?

 

[hopalong]

Amen. I wish you the best.

Hopalong, we'll never get the message. We have no way of receiving it unless we run across a NJA pilot courtesy of our "union". I rarely see an airport these days but have run across four NJA pilots, all with encouraging things to say. Other furloughed guys have run across NJA pilots who didn't even realize there were guys on furlough. One of us was in a van with a crusty bastard complaining there weren't enough extended days available.

Until the union addresses the wedge between active and furloughed more of this garbage will happen. I figure LOTS of it will happen when / if we come back for a little while anyway. Thank NJASAP for it.[/QUOTE]



OPECJET,

I understand all of your frustrations. When the talks of furloughs first happened I was just as nervous as you. I am not far from the bottom of the list and still worry at times if I will be right along side you.

Let me shed some light as to what we have been experiencing at njasap these days. We are fully engaging our pilot group with an education campaign in regards to our worth as aviators on our message boards and on the road.
And regrettably, some are not aware of our worth. We continue to educate our fellow brothers and sisters on the road and truly believe this will come to fruition. The good news for you is that the company wants this contract signed quickly. This sense of urgency speaks volumes to me. I think sales will increase dramatically very quickly and at a steady pace. I do not want to give anyone of you false hope because we can not predict the future. But if I were a betting man, I would think that recalls would start happening once the CBA is signed.

When you all were employed here, there was a PIC vs SIC mentality. This is no longer the case. We are more united in our solidarity and our anger has been at the EMT and not with each other. We will not sell each other out. I have complete confidence that our PICs will only vote for what is best for the SICs and we will do the same for them. Please know that we have that same regard for you, our fellow brothers that have had the misfortune of bad timing. You have struggled and shouldered the financial burden, the disappointments, the frustration, and the heart ache. We take notice and please know we are with you, not against you. We will stand and fight for you!

Please tell us what we can do to advocate for you. Please tell us if you are still seeking employment and what we can do to help. As aviators, we are a small community and we need to look out for one another. Many prayers go out to you and your families and we wish and are excited for the days that you will return...

 

[jetlag7]

You're communicating, and you're only half right. If you're 100% correct, explain to me why 1.) the company hasn't furloughed down to 5 pilots per frame, and 2.) why the company wanted scope relief? Could it be owner demand and pilot availability DOES have something to do with overall pilot staffing?

No argument that recalls will only happen if and when airframes are added. You're dead wrong on staffing being completely driven by airframes, however.

Am I communicating?

1. 5 pilots per airframe is the contractual minimum we negotiated in our CBA -- it's an arbitrary number -- they've never taken staffing down to this level because the actual number to maintain the operation is much higher...

2. If you recall, the request for scope relief happened back in 2010 before we started flying like
gang-busters again. (Remember the infamous March 31st deadline DS gave us before his "fall from grace?")

To me, this indicates their desire for scope relief has never been motivated by demand.....

From where I'm sitting, both of you are 100% correct ....

Demand drives the need for more airframes which in turn, require additional pilots to operate.

Presently however, neither is happening at a rate sufficient to keep up with demand.... We are literally flying the doors off of the jets at the moment, retirement schedules for older airframes have been delayed, the "shadow" group of displacement pilots who were getting paid to sit at home are ALL back to work, yet pilots are having to fatigue with greater and greater frequency due to the higher workload....

The wheels are coming off the bus and we aren't even in the busy season yet....

Because of this, I do have to disagree with both of you on one major point -- regardless of how it may weaken the company bargaining position, I don't believe recalls will wait until a successor CBA is ratified.

 

[acaTerry]

Oh wow, I meant 67 not 75.