Netjets Globals

[G4dude]

Only have an hour or two, so I will keep it brief.

The lame joke was cut and pasted as received. It wasn’t good enough to share with my right (of Attila the Hun) leaning friends.

Only speak for myself…don’t know the others real feelings. Personally, I only recall one serial poster who was obviously very anti-union and a bit melodramatic.

Nothing against “Collective Bargaining”. While I prefer making my own career decisions, that doesn’t mean I think unions are bad. Bad acting by certain union members (see below) require responses which lead others to believe that my opinion of unions are overly negative. One extreme has to be balance by another.

Could be wrong, but it appears the union is made up of three groups of members…the first are those that don’t like unions but have to belong, the second could care less…just give me my check and leave me alone, and the third group made up of malcontents who never belonged to anything in their life and feel empowered because they now carry a union card. The first and last groups are in the minority and most members are good, decent, hardworking folks who do their professions very well.

The third group are the ones that get indigestion and go apecrap anytime someone posts anything slightly contrary to their union views…which causes hilarious (my opinion), although boring to many, debate and chain pulling. They take things a little too personally and are way too serious.

Union debates will never end, nor should they. Outlandish comments always deserve rebuttal.



Better topics to discuss-

Gutshot just mentioned Globals…very interesting topic and still don’t know why mgmt decided to make this, and other, changes in aircraft manufacturers.
Future of the fractional industry? Many challenges not only for the frac’s, but private aviation in general. Talk back in 2008 is that we would recover in 6 months; we are now in the 5th year of no growth and no light at the end of the tunnel.
Who are the leaders of private aviation that will lead us from this mess? A good cowboy or two leading the herd would be good right now. NetJets use to fill this role, but now is out of sight which isn't good for the company or the industry. The guy running EJM is a good soldier, but quiet, don't know anything about the guy at the helm of the mothership.​

Great post! You could start several new threads with your ideas for conversation. Might I add another one or two? What do we think will happen to the economy AND biz aviation in the next 4 years? Do y'all agree with me that we are probably going to repeat 2008-2009 and go into a deep recession? Are there more layoffs or early buyouts coming to NJA?
Regarding the union question and discussions about it, most union fans are very nice people who can have good conversations without vituperation. If all the union people were like that we would all post on a non anonymous board. But people like me don't want to risk flying with a vindictive overzealous union crazy who is angry with me when all I want to do is fly, have fun and eat good food and smile a lot. And moan about all the time zones and how hard it is to sleep in New Delhi.
By the way, I recently flew Hansell and got to work with him during a challenging event with the plane. He seemed to be sharp, calm, and a nice guy. I enjoyed the experience, especially when we were able to get the plane going.

 

[acaTerry]

Well I just read the whole whole darned 14 pages. G4 has not been screwed by an employer yet, from what I gather.
When I was a CFI at a small to medium sized FBO, I had a great boss / owner. I was under the impression that the whole aviation world worked like that. Between that and my military background - I was enlisted, not a pilot- I hated unions and thought them to be collective groups of crybabies.
My next job, I found that there are just some places and trades that need a union, or you WILL be f*cked by your employer. After several airlines and corporate flying jobs, my opinion on unions is, by and large, fairly negative. But in aviation, they are needed. But unfortunately, things go awry. For example, at my "big ab-initio" school IAMAW was truly worthless in every sense of the word when it came to contract enforcement. I watched people get fired for refusing to take up planes that had failed engines twice in the same day. No recourse. At ACA, ALPO took 2% of my pay and told me that if I didn't vote for John Kerry that I was a bad guy. At Trash States Teamsters took 2% of my pay and basically told us that truck drivers are the backbone and pilots don't matter. Hostess....they make Twinkies. Dangerous? No. Backbreaking? No. Unionization is getting like that tip jar that pops up everywhere. Not necessary in all places, but good to have at some. But look at the aviation employers with no or weak unions...one thing has always occurred: the employees get screwed.
On the flip side, there are things I hate about it. A certain incident about a CA and FO and a BJ at 4000' during IMC at one of my employers comes to mind. The CA got his job back through "due process". How I love my dues being spent on things like that.
All in all, my opinion of unions comes to this: they are only as good as the group being represented. I do not think that every person who goes to work needs a union. Nor do I think that a good employer should fear one.
G4, I think, is just poorly educated on the subject. I have heard so many Gulfstream pilots blame the union and the contract for things the company is doing. They are getting the treatment we have been getting for years, but think somehow that the union, not the company, is the problem.
Example: training policy. "We used to be able to train people as long as it took to pass a checkride. If it took 6 or 7 checkrides, we could do that. Now because of your union contract we have only so many chances".
I have 2 very big problems here with that.
1) The contract clearly states that the company may allow as much training as it takes to pass a checkride. It's right there in black and white. Perhaps they can read the contract instead of just taking the company's version of everything.
2) Contrary to G4's statement about union pilots being sucky, it appears that some of the original Gulfstream pilots can be sucky too. And I do not want any part of flying with anyone who can not pass 4 attempts at the same checkride. Anyone can have a bad day, or two. Maybe even three, but FOUR?
All in all, I think as time goes on these guys will wake up. I feel bad for them, they had a good thing at NJI. They lost a lot in the integration, but they need to know that the company, not the union, is the limiter. G4 and those like-minded need to get something drilled into their heads: CMH is not Oakatie, and Hansell is not Santulli. CMH has a whole different culture. The Sokol / Hansell culture is not the result of NJASAP. Solol came in swinging the axe from day 1. Hell, he wanted to furlough out of seniority. So how would you feel if you were furloughed from your G4 and an SIC 7 years behind you was upgraded to your position so the company can save money? Or how would you like to have your pay slashed so that WB can get 5% instead of 4% return? All the while, the EMT gets raise after raise for cutting workers? Look how well the cost savings have helped our pilots: we have pilots under FAA enforcement for not being familiar enough with the iPad procedures...why? Because it was cheap to send us a little folder with the iPad instead of actually training us on them.
NJASAP is not your enemy, and by screwing us, you only will screw yourselves harder. Remember, NJASAP wasn't the one with ants in their pants to hurry this integration, it was the EMT. We are not against you, and you should not be against us. And, G4, concerning JH being nice...remember that the rapist is often someone well known and liked by the victim.

 

[Helmsalee]

Well said Terry.
Helm

 

[CA1900]

I recently flew Hansell and got to work with him during a challenging event with the plane. He seemed to be sharp, calm, and a nice guy.

A nice guy doesn't say to his employees, at dinner, "If this doesn't work out for me, I can go do something else, but I can't say the same for everybody here."

 

[G4dude]

Well I just read the whole whole darned 14 pages. G4 has not been screwed by an employer yet, from what I gather.
When I was a CFI at a small to medium sized FBO, I had a great boss / owner. I was under the impression that the whole aviation world worked like that. Between that and my military background - I was enlisted, not a pilot- I hated unions and thought them to be collective groups of crybabies.
My next job, I found that there are just some places and trades that need a union, or you WILL be f*cked by your employer. After several airlines and corporate flying jobs, my opinion on unions is, by and large, fairly negative. But in aviation, they are needed. But unfortunately, things go awry. For example, at my "big ab-initio" school IAMAW was truly worthless in every sense of the word when it came to contract enforcement. I watched people get fired for refusing to take up planes that had failed engines twice in the same day. No recourse. At ACA, ALPO took 2% of my pay and told me that if I didn't vote for John Kerry that I was a bad guy. At Trash States Teamsters took 2% of my pay and basically told us that truck drivers are the backbone and pilots don't matter. Hostess....they make Twinkies. Dangerous? No. Backbreaking? No. Unionization is getting like that tip jar that pops up everywhere. Not necessary in all places, but good to have at some. But look at the aviation employers with no or weak unions...one thing has always occurred: the employees get screwed.
On the flip side, there are things I hate about it. A certain incident about a CA and FO and a BJ at 4000' during IMC at one of my employers comes to mind. The CA got his job back through "due process". How I love my dues being spent on things like that.
All in all, my opinion of unions comes to this: they are only as good as the group being represented. I do not think that every person who goes to work needs a union. Nor do I think that a good employer should fear one.
G4, I think, is just poorly educated on the subject. I have heard so many Gulfstream pilots blame the union and the contract for things the company is doing. They are getting the treatment we have been getting for years, but think somehow that the union, not the company, is the problem.
Example: training policy. "We used to be able to train people as long as it took to pass a checkride. If it took 6 or 7 checkrides, we could do that. Now because of your union contract we have only so many chances".
I have 2 very big problems here with that.
1) The contract clearly states that the company may allow as much training as it takes to pass a checkride. It's right there in black and white. Perhaps they can read the contract instead of just taking the company's version of everything.
2) Contrary to G4's statement about union pilots being sucky, it appears that some of the original Gulfstream pilots can be sucky too. And I do not want any part of flying with anyone who can not pass 4 attempts at the same checkride. Anyone can have a bad day, or two. Maybe even three, but FOUR?
All in all, I think as time goes on these guys will wake up. I feel bad for them, they had a good thing at NJI. They lost a lot in the integration, but they need to know that the company, not the union, is the limiter. G4 and those like-minded need to get something drilled into their heads: CMH is not Oakatie, and Hansell is not Santulli. CMH has a whole different culture. The Sokol / Hansell culture is not the result of NJASAP. Solol came in swinging the axe from day 1. Hell, he wanted to furlough out of seniority. So how would you feel if you were furloughed from your G4 and an SIC 7 years behind you was upgraded to your position so the company can save money? Or how would you like to have your pay slashed so that WB can get 5% instead of 4% return? All the while, the EMT gets raise after raise for cutting workers? Look how well the cost savings have helped our pilots: we have pilots under FAA enforcement for not being familiar enough with the iPad procedures...why? Because it was cheap to send us a little folder with the iPad instead of actually training us on them.
NJASAP is not your enemy, and by screwing us, you only will screw yourselves harder. Remember, NJASAP wasn't the one with ants in their pants to hurry this integration, it was the EMT. We are not against you, and you should not be against us. And, G4, concerning JH being nice...remember that the rapist is often someone well known and liked by the victim.

Now THIS is good conversation! However, I never said union pilots are sucky. Most are just as good as anybody else. There are some lousy non union pilots, although they don't have the union protections, so they run a greater risk of losing their jobs...
I am not against you, I just disagree with you about some things. Instead of collective bargaining, I believe in individual bargaining. In an extreme case, if the union strikes, I would disagree. But I would not confront or yell at you or defecate in your luggage because you struck, even though I feel a strike would endanger my job by jeapardizing the survival of my employer. But some union guys would do those things to me for going to work. See the difference? Union people can post pro union opinions on a non anonymous board without fear of reprisals from fellow pilots, but I can't post anti union opinions with the same protections. See the difference?
I even think NJA should have the right to get rid of me regardless of seniority. The job belongs to the company, not to me. I would HATE it, but it is their money, the investors'. If we don't make maximum profit, the stock will drop in value, reflecting investors' willingness to take their dollars elsewhere. If the stock drops enough, we all lose our jobs, and I don't want that to happen to me or anybody else. I care about my fellow pilots just as much as you do, but we disagree as to how to secure the best pay and security and the rest of it.
If a union is inevitable, as is the case at NJA, then an in house one is much better than a national one like the Teamsters. The one we have seems to do a very good job, ESPECIALLY since we forced Luthi out. What a cancer HE was. By the way, the union guys and gals I have flown with here have taught me some things, mainly how bad the job was a few years ago and how hard the crews of the smaller planes work. I'm glad I know those things now.
Anyway, thanks for the good post, and the respectful tone. May everybody enjoy their jobs as much as I do, and Merry Christmas!

 

[G4dude]

A nice guy doesn't say to his employees, at dinner, "If this doesn't work out for me, I can go do something else, but I can't say the same for everybody here."

That was an unusual thing to say. What was he talking about?

 

[LAZYB]

That was an unusual thing to say. What was he talking about?

Probably talking about being a trust "baby"...

 

[CA1900]

That was an unusual thing to say. What was he talking about?

He was talking about our company and its employees at one of these propaganda dinners.

 

[rajflyboy]

ACA Terry is right on

 

[G4dude]

ACA Terry is right on

And civilized about it, which is good.