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NetJets Application/Interview ?
- Thread starter RJFlyer
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Publishers,
You have distorted your own perceptions of reality by comparing Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo of being victims of a given situation. You have paid enormous disrespect to the military. You seem to feel that pilots should work for less money than a dog groomer, and be worked twice as long. Are there any other pearls of wisdom- oh great one!
Sir, with due respect, you obviously don't have a clue!
Frank Lorenzo was ordered by the DOT to never serve on the board of any airline, ever again. His reprehensible and criminal behavior stole precious savings from every investor he ever dealt with. He shut down a perfectly good airline and failed to abide by the laws of the land in doing so. Don't believe me? Sir, go visit your local library.
I, too am from a military family. Marines and Army. May I give you a pearl of wisdom? NEVER and I mean NEVER NEVER NEVER disrespect your military, especially in a time of war and national emergency!
Comparing flying around Navajos kept together with speed tape at some rag tag operation, served by pilots with nothing but student flight time and debt on their resumes CANNOT be compared to the long and arduous task of being a competent fighter pillot for the greatest military known to the history of mankind!
Just one more little piece of advice. GO AWAY! In about a month or so, come back with an apology and we just....might, just might, let you post here again and offer you a respectful reply.
It's arm chair warriors like you that we don't need in here. Go away and let us fix this industry the likes of you have screwed up for us!!
You have distorted your own perceptions of reality by comparing Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo of being victims of a given situation. You have paid enormous disrespect to the military. You seem to feel that pilots should work for less money than a dog groomer, and be worked twice as long. Are there any other pearls of wisdom- oh great one!
Sir, with due respect, you obviously don't have a clue!
Frank Lorenzo was ordered by the DOT to never serve on the board of any airline, ever again. His reprehensible and criminal behavior stole precious savings from every investor he ever dealt with. He shut down a perfectly good airline and failed to abide by the laws of the land in doing so. Don't believe me? Sir, go visit your local library.
I, too am from a military family. Marines and Army. May I give you a pearl of wisdom? NEVER and I mean NEVER NEVER NEVER disrespect your military, especially in a time of war and national emergency!
Comparing flying around Navajos kept together with speed tape at some rag tag operation, served by pilots with nothing but student flight time and debt on their resumes CANNOT be compared to the long and arduous task of being a competent fighter pillot for the greatest military known to the history of mankind!
Just one more little piece of advice. GO AWAY! In about a month or so, come back with an apology and we just....might, just might, let you post here again and offer you a respectful reply.
It's arm chair warriors like you that we don't need in here. Go away and let us fix this industry the likes of you have screwed up for us!!
Publishers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,736
It is extremely difficult due to the system and program that Netjets has as a service offering. Previously I commented on the cost of crew per occupied hour and why that is important.
The Netjets program is a high utilization one due to the positioning flights and random flights.
Let's say for argument sake, it takes 8 crewmen to do the 750 hours of flight. We will pay them all $100k per year. Total Cost $800,000 plus benefits and taxes.
Ok, we have corporation A who wants to fly the same hours. It is possible that they would do this with 3 full time and one or two contract pilots. Maybe 5 full time. You do the math.
The odds in the corporation flying that the 750 hours are predominantly occupied. I do not know the Netjets percentage.
This is complicated and needs very sophisticated scheduling department to be efficient. It needs a matching contract. The flying everyone around to meet planes and days off schedules has to be a killer in this operation.
The Netjets program is a high utilization one due to the positioning flights and random flights.
Let's say for argument sake, it takes 8 crewmen to do the 750 hours of flight. We will pay them all $100k per year. Total Cost $800,000 plus benefits and taxes.
Ok, we have corporation A who wants to fly the same hours. It is possible that they would do this with 3 full time and one or two contract pilots. Maybe 5 full time. You do the math.
The odds in the corporation flying that the 750 hours are predominantly occupied. I do not know the Netjets percentage.
This is complicated and needs very sophisticated scheduling department to be efficient. It needs a matching contract. The flying everyone around to meet planes and days off schedules has to be a killer in this operation.
You know it really depends on the type of trips you are flying. If you have a coporate aircraft that is always occupied and a schedule that can be covered with a single crew. And you never need more than one airplane at a time. And it never has unscheduled maintanence. And scheduled maintenance can be completed at times the plane isn't needed... then there is certainly no reason to use a fractional company.
In reality many corporate outfits make difficult calls on whether to leave the plane out sitting someplace for 3 days and cover other trips with charter vs ferrying the plane back and forth empty. This is the very problem that fractional programs are designed to help with.
Then there is the problem of needing to do a trip with an airplane thats not well suited for it. Maybe you need to get into a short runway. Or maybe you need to have longer range. With fractional you can pick and choose the airplane for the mission with upgrades and downgrades.
Again it depends on the type of flying a company needs to get done. If they are always doing the same trip to the same place with the same number of people then that makes the likelyhood of needing to go fractional that much less. They can buy an airplane perfectly suited for that mission and thats great if thats all they need it for.
I really don't think you have a grasp of how business and charter type aircraft are utilized... sorry dude.
In reality many corporate outfits make difficult calls on whether to leave the plane out sitting someplace for 3 days and cover other trips with charter vs ferrying the plane back and forth empty. This is the very problem that fractional programs are designed to help with.
Then there is the problem of needing to do a trip with an airplane thats not well suited for it. Maybe you need to get into a short runway. Or maybe you need to have longer range. With fractional you can pick and choose the airplane for the mission with upgrades and downgrades.
Again it depends on the type of flying a company needs to get done. If they are always doing the same trip to the same place with the same number of people then that makes the likelyhood of needing to go fractional that much less. They can buy an airplane perfectly suited for that mission and thats great if thats all they need it for.
I really don't think you have a grasp of how business and charter type aircraft are utilized... sorry dude.
gunfyter
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2002
- Posts
- 3,785
I did 750 hours my first yr... with two 100 hr months. Ok not all occupied. Over 6 yrs only averaging 600... in the X its mostly occupied becase you ferry a .5 and then have a 3 to 5 hr leg. Also a lot af 2 or 3 occupied trips in a row because coast to coast flights tend to be to high utilization airports. SFO-IAD-SJC. The Ultra had a lot of middle of nowhere drops and pickups which then required ferry.
Publishers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,736
Sctt, I agree with what you said. When I started our 135, we took the position that we would have 3 classes of aircraft so we could handle 3 different type missions. We also eliminated "wait time" and did not guarantee the aircraft would wait. You said when you wanted to go and when you wanted picked up and that is what you got. All full time pilots had to fly all aircraft although only assigned trips in two.
You could charter an Aztec to go to Indiannapolis and be picked up in a King Air if it was convenient for us. We flew check runs from CMH to CLT and let people charter a seat.
Many of the aspects are the same as Netjets but there is a difference from the owner perspective. He is paying a full time cost and a management fee, and, I believe an occupied fee. A friend sent me his agreement when I was doing a fractional consulting job and it was quite a bit to look at and figure out what it was going to cost per hour. I believe to some extent you are right to think that Netjets pays on the lower end of the scale. In teh old days, they only wanted ex Military who were retired to fly and they figured they could pay them less. This was Lassiter and LeMay who came up with that.
What is that level today, I do not know. I do know that it has dragged along much longer than need be and there is not a solution in sight.
Lastly, I did not disrespect the military nor did I say that Frank Lorenzo was a victim of anything. He failed to realize that airlines were different than other companies as they are controlled by DOT and that he could not do what he wanted to. I said he was a scavenger, looking for under valued assets he could take cheap. That is not a victim.
I remain somewhat facinated by the Netjets model and want to see how this plays out, not only from the labor aspect, but, also how the residual value concepts hold up as these aircraft hit the market and the sale of new fractions becomes mature. All the card share programs have taken the fractions to smaller and smaller pieces. While Citation Shares has a program, they cannot get too much going because they do not want to irratate Netjets who I think is their largest customer.
I would really like to see their numbers on pilots per aircraft and occupied crew time. I never really understood why the pilots would be with the Teamsters in the first place although I am sure someone told me along the way.
By the way Hawk, I respect not only the military but the guys flying the Navajo with the speed tape. We were flying Aztec's and 402's on check runs to CLT through CRW from CMH and the winter night flying was always something to keep your proficiency up. I flew them just to stay current.
You could charter an Aztec to go to Indiannapolis and be picked up in a King Air if it was convenient for us. We flew check runs from CMH to CLT and let people charter a seat.
Many of the aspects are the same as Netjets but there is a difference from the owner perspective. He is paying a full time cost and a management fee, and, I believe an occupied fee. A friend sent me his agreement when I was doing a fractional consulting job and it was quite a bit to look at and figure out what it was going to cost per hour. I believe to some extent you are right to think that Netjets pays on the lower end of the scale. In teh old days, they only wanted ex Military who were retired to fly and they figured they could pay them less. This was Lassiter and LeMay who came up with that.
What is that level today, I do not know. I do know that it has dragged along much longer than need be and there is not a solution in sight.
Lastly, I did not disrespect the military nor did I say that Frank Lorenzo was a victim of anything. He failed to realize that airlines were different than other companies as they are controlled by DOT and that he could not do what he wanted to. I said he was a scavenger, looking for under valued assets he could take cheap. That is not a victim.
I remain somewhat facinated by the Netjets model and want to see how this plays out, not only from the labor aspect, but, also how the residual value concepts hold up as these aircraft hit the market and the sale of new fractions becomes mature. All the card share programs have taken the fractions to smaller and smaller pieces. While Citation Shares has a program, they cannot get too much going because they do not want to irratate Netjets who I think is their largest customer.
I would really like to see their numbers on pilots per aircraft and occupied crew time. I never really understood why the pilots would be with the Teamsters in the first place although I am sure someone told me along the way.
By the way Hawk, I respect not only the military but the guys flying the Navajo with the speed tape. We were flying Aztec's and 402's on check runs to CLT through CRW from CMH and the winter night flying was always something to keep your proficiency up. I flew them just to stay current.
G550Driver
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Posts
- 42
G550
We can know nothing of the validity of your argument without being offered figures. What do you make now? For how how many days off per/month? Hard days off or "promised"? Retirement? Match on 401K? Do you assume other duties than flying? Stability is this a true Fortune 100, or another dot-bom?
Publishers
We are aware of the demands of non-scheduled freight. I'm not sure if the FAA was asleep at the switch to alllow aircraft like those described fly in icing conditions and some without working radar in convective areas of weather. Sometimes, I feel that it is an irrational desire to not rock the boat that sees us in this millenium with worse standards than when most of those aircraft were new in the late 1970s.
I can scarcely believe it is still allowed in such a litigious society. How many planes have been lost and how many young hopefuls had their lives lost under the guise of "pilot error"?
I really wonder why anyone would engage you seriously on these boards. Your standards show enormous inconcistencies in your demonstration of a thirst for notoriety and the holy dollar.
We can know nothing of the validity of your argument without being offered figures. What do you make now? For how how many days off per/month? Hard days off or "promised"? Retirement? Match on 401K? Do you assume other duties than flying? Stability is this a true Fortune 100, or another dot-bom?
Publishers
We are aware of the demands of non-scheduled freight. I'm not sure if the FAA was asleep at the switch to alllow aircraft like those described fly in icing conditions and some without working radar in convective areas of weather. Sometimes, I feel that it is an irrational desire to not rock the boat that sees us in this millenium with worse standards than when most of those aircraft were new in the late 1970s.
I can scarcely believe it is still allowed in such a litigious society. How many planes have been lost and how many young hopefuls had their lives lost under the guise of "pilot error"?
I really wonder why anyone would engage you seriously on these boards. Your standards show enormous inconcistencies in your demonstration of a thirst for notoriety and the holy dollar.
G550Driver
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Posts
- 42
Coming to NutJets is the worst descision anyone could make.
This place is a sh!t whole and anyone will realize this simple fact as soon as they get here.
Do yourself a favor and dont make the same mistake the other 1800 and something have made.
If you dont believe me then find a fellow gold tie guy in an FBO and ask them.
85-90% of the pilots will tell you the same thing.
Go to a commuter, stay where you are or go work at home depot.
This place is a sh!t whole and anyone will realize this simple fact as soon as they get here.
Do yourself a favor and dont make the same mistake the other 1800 and something have made.
If you dont believe me then find a fellow gold tie guy in an FBO and ask them.
85-90% of the pilots will tell you the same thing.
Go to a commuter, stay where you are or go work at home depot.
How do you know Home Depot would even hire you? With an attitude like that I wouldn't even feed you, let alone pay you to work for me.
Don't like it- leave!
Leave the job for those who like it here and look forward to an even brighter future.
Tell me- another great freight mistake or one of the golden children from our many broken down 121 major airlines?
Don't like it- leave!
Leave the job for those who like it here and look forward to an even brighter future.
Tell me- another great freight mistake or one of the golden children from our many broken down 121 major airlines?
netjetwife
1 of many w/an opinion
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2004
- Posts
- 2,741
Seeing both sides.....
I must say, Fracster, that you sound rather bitter and burned-out. That is understandable; you NJ pilots are working way too hard for much too little. All those 14 hr days are taking their toll on everybody.
Whispering to Hawkered...maybe he was lured here by those false promises..a lot of the new guys were, you know....and he's probably still working off his 2 yr training contract and CAN'T LEAVE!
Fracster, I do understand the situation looks pretty grim right now. And I can't say for sure that my husband would have still taken the job had they not painted such a rosy picture. BUT, he does like the JOB--just not the pay. It has a lot of potential to be a good place to work, and a lot of people are working hard to try to make that happen.
Appealing to both, explaining to others: NJA is at a cross-roads right now. It could go either way. Fracster, it will get much better under SU. Hawkered, if the company won't pay fair wages I think a lot of pilots WILL leave, my husband included, and that will be sad...
It is very tough on the bottom payscale and even the Captains aren't paid right. I know waiting is hard after those 3 wasted years, but if we can all hang on til Xmas we'll be getting a nice present--SU. We are hopeful, that after a winter of hard work, they will bring us a fresh start (new contract) in the Spring.
Note: My advice to those looking at NJA remains the same. Take a very close look, ask lots of questions and base your decision on things as they ARE not as you hope they will be, (whispering...so you don't wind up like Fracster). Should you still choose NJ, please be prepared to help do your part for a good contract so that ALL pilots can be happy working there. NJW
I must say, Fracster, that you sound rather bitter and burned-out. That is understandable; you NJ pilots are working way too hard for much too little. All those 14 hr days are taking their toll on everybody.
Whispering to Hawkered...maybe he was lured here by those false promises..a lot of the new guys were, you know....and he's probably still working off his 2 yr training contract and CAN'T LEAVE!
Fracster, I do understand the situation looks pretty grim right now. And I can't say for sure that my husband would have still taken the job had they not painted such a rosy picture. BUT, he does like the JOB--just not the pay. It has a lot of potential to be a good place to work, and a lot of people are working hard to try to make that happen.
Appealing to both, explaining to others: NJA is at a cross-roads right now. It could go either way. Fracster, it will get much better under SU. Hawkered, if the company won't pay fair wages I think a lot of pilots WILL leave, my husband included, and that will be sad...
It is very tough on the bottom payscale and even the Captains aren't paid right. I know waiting is hard after those 3 wasted years, but if we can all hang on til Xmas we'll be getting a nice present--SU. We are hopeful, that after a winter of hard work, they will bring us a fresh start (new contract) in the Spring.Note: My advice to those looking at NJA remains the same. Take a very close look, ask lots of questions and base your decision on things as they ARE not as you hope they will be, (whispering...so you don't wind up like Fracster). Should you still choose NJ, please be prepared to help do your part for a good contract so that ALL pilots can be happy working there. NJW
Netjets has a good 401K. They match up to half of 15%. Not a bad deal at all.
Dental and Medical are reasonable plans too.
Time off particular during Vacation periods rocks. If you are on the 7 and 7 schedule you will get 21 days off for a 7 day vacation period. Not too shabby.
Even better yet >> You get to work with Netjetwife's Hubby!!!
Dental and Medical are reasonable plans too.
Time off particular during Vacation periods rocks. If you are on the 7 and 7 schedule you will get 21 days off for a 7 day vacation period. Not too shabby.
Even better yet >> You get to work with Netjetwife's Hubby!!!
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