Netjet billboard @ TEB

[Hogprint]

Shamtulli has said in the past that if we give him the time to get market share, then he would take care of us (pay).

He has the market share, now it's time to pay the piper.

You need look no further than the aircraft Netjets has bought with options to buy more. You can't cry poor on one hand and then out of the other make deals on 100 Hawkers (400s/800s).

Am I off base on this?

 

[dsptchrnja]

I don't know all the details because I'm not priivy to them....

You can't have a reasonable discusion without knowing the facts:

NetJets (not including NJI or NJE) has lost $6 million in the first quarter of 2005.

This is straight from the CFO's mouth - now public information... primarily caused by a major increase in sell-offs... which was caused by lack of a/c production... all caused by higher demand for NetJet's product.

Which brings up the reply to Hogprint:

"You can't cry poor on one hand and then out of the other make deals on 100 Hawkers (400s/800s). "​

NetJets doesn't go out and buy too many a/c in the hopes that owners will come along and purchase shares. They respond to the demand. The BBJ is an exception. There is a long waiting period for owners to actually get on the a/c they own - not sure how long - quite a few months - which, in turn, goes back to the amount of sell-offs - they don't make the owner wait, to my knowledge, he can fly on the existing fleet when the check clears - putting more demand on the existing fleet - creating more sell-offs.​

This is the only business I'm aware of in the world that loses money when high demand picks up suddenly. For you guys that think the company would just assume operate with vendor a/c during a strike - think again - we lose $3 for every $1 revenue on Vendor flights.

As for WB - he initially invested $$ to Netjets anticipationg/asking that it would return 7% a year - so far, 5 years I think, we never have. Last year was the closest year. This year we aren't even in the black.

If you think NetJets can afford to pay what the Pilots are demanding - think again. It is also curious that the pilot union refused the company's offer to have a third party "wage comparison" so everyone can talk about the facts instead of just drooling over WB's wallet.

 

[dsptchrnja]

I say go ahead and strike! What do you have to lose? .... Things can only get better....

I believe this is spelled s-e-l-f-i-s-h

Oh, it can get a lot worse... if this company goes south because of a strike, the pilots will have a lot of explaining to do to the other thousands of employees at NetJets who like to feed their kids and pay some bills. Remember them...? They are the ones content making 3-5% annual pay increases while the pilot force earns 7-12%. The ones who MAKE their own lunch and bring it to work!

Don't get me wrong - fair pay for crews is what everyone wants. I have flown with you guys and your the best pilots I've ever known. We want you to be content and stick around for the long run. Everyone wants NetJets to continue to be a place to grow.

But anyone who WANTS a strike has the mentality you just described... no one forced you to work here - wasn't it voluntary? Did they lie to you and tell you your schedule would never change and your food would always show up just like you ordered it or that you would never have to work a 14 hour day?

Economics 101: The Employer is the risk-taker. Employees exist to serve the needs of the company, not the other way around.

If that hurts, then either someone misled you or your expectations got distorted along the way.

 

[LR45JI]

I see you got the memo........what a fine piece of work that was - the propoganda machine is working overtime.

You may preach Econ 101 how about Union Busting 101: Whipsaw everyone against each other.

Enjoy the kool-aid.

 

[x402]

I believe this is spelled s-e-l-f-i-s-h

Oh, it can get a lot worse... if this company goes south because of a strike, the pilots will have a lot of explaining to do to the other thousands of employees at NetJets who like to feed their kids and pay some bills. Remember them...? They are the ones content making 3-5% annual pay increases while the pilot force earns 7-12%. The ones who MAKE their own lunch and bring it to work!

Don't get me wrong - fair pay for crews is what everyone wants. I have flown with you guys and your the best pilots I've ever known. We want you to be content and stick around for the long run. Everyone wants NetJets to continue to be a place to grow.

But anyone who WANTS a strike has the mentality you just described... no one forced you to work here - wasn't it voluntary? Did they lie to you and tell you your schedule would never change and your food would always show up just like you ordered it or that you would never have to work a 14 hour day?

Economics 101: The Employer is the risk-taker. Employees exist to serve the needs of the company, not the other way around.

If that hurts, then either someone misled you or your expectations got distorted along the way.

The company has already promised that there will be NO lay offs if there is strike. Having trouble believing that statement? I wonder why?

Yes, the company has lied many times, interviewers, owners services and schedulers for a few in my case, and I'm not alone.

My raise this year is < 4%, I have know idea why you believe mgt when they tell you this stuff, and 4% of nothing is still nothing.

Don't close your eyes and start drinking the company kool aid, they'll be coming for you next.

 

[x402]

This is straight from the CFO's mouth - now public information... primarily caused by a major increase in sell-offs... which was caused by lack of a/c production... all caused by higher demand for NetJet's product.


Maybe they shouldn't have sold off half the core fleet.
How can you use their numbers and not include the most glaring mistake they have made since the last 'white knight' arrived on the property?
Do you consider the over selling of Marquis cards to be a contributor to the problem?
How about failure to steamline MEL procedures or better scheduling of MX?
These don't even begin to take into account the fee structure for EJM. FSI and NJA Sales, that is moving money as fast as we (NJA)can make it for BH.
Econ 101? Maybe you should have taken some advance courses, I know BB and RTS have.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Grasshopper,

"One is lead to believe a LIE, when one sees not through the eye," -- The Rubayat of Omar Khayam



​

1. The company loses money on selloffs? That is very interesting.


There are JetCard companies that charge LESS THAN WE DO that are basically charter brokers. They make a profit. Now how is it that we charge more than the charterbrokers (and when we do a selloff we basically are a charter broker) and lose money?

The reason is the profits from the Charter (selloff) go to EJM Charter.

Also we are losing mioney on Operations they claim... how much did they make SELLING the airplanes that they do not have on the property? See NetJets Sales is a different company. Are the profits from NJS included in the company's claims? Are the profits from Marquis included?

2. Payraises.

First this is a Lie and I have the spreadsheet all worked out to prove it. But lets for the moment entertain this ridiculous claim. First I'll tell a story.

While campaigning for President, Ross Perot commented on the claim that Governor Bill Clinton had DOUBLED the Economy of Arkansas. Mr Perot said, "When all you have is a Penny it only takes another penny to double it."


​

This claim by the company only goes to demonstrate how low the Pilot pay is. If they can give annual payraises that large yet even after that large raise , the average Captains pay at NJA would need to be RAISED an additional 33% just to equal the STARTING pay at one of our competitors Citation Shares.


Thats right. Add up all the monies paid to Captains at NJA for pilots with 1 to 14 yrs with the Company ... divide by the number of Captains and you would need to increase that number by 33% to match new Captain pay at CS. When all you have is a Penny it only takes another penny to double it

Put another way. After 6 yrs on the X... I have made $120,000 less in wages than I would have if I instead flew at CS in a CJ.

This company has been operating with a 33 to 50% discount on Pilot labor costs in comparison some of the competition. FACT FACT FACT!

And we can't make money? This is a LIE or an incompetent management who should all be FIRED.

We can't make money while paying Pilots flying 20 million dollar Jets less than COTA busdrivers? A LOT LESS! As a COTA busdriver I would have earned $60K more than I have over the last 6 yrs as a NJA Captain.

Please... Step away from the Kool Aid.

 

[semperfido]

as long as there are people lined up at the employment door willing to take that job management probably has a hard time seeing the need to pay more.

 

[I-R-DXR]

I think (maybe wrong here) the Company said its taking steps to correct the core fleet issue.

Company propoganda? maybe

6S's propoganda? maybe

Goes both ways. The common worker seems to be stuck in the middle. As for the payraise what does your ammendable contract say you get every year? Has your pay frozen since the contract was ammendable?

I believe the Marquis card program is what helped us stay afloat during tough times - no data just personal opinion. As for the mx cntrl outfit Ive seen far worse in my day. They may need some tweaking just like every department. They have a huge task of dealing with a slew of different types of aircraft. No small task to be sure.

Oh, it can get a lot worse... if this company goes south because of a strike, the pilots will have a lot of explaining to do to the other thousands of employees at NetJets who like to feed their kids and pay some bills.

That is my worst fear. It goes far beyond the pilots pay here folks. Remember that.

 

[NJA Capt]

You can't have a reasonable discusion without knowing the facts:

Which you don't have.

- we lose $3 for every $1 revenue on Vendor flights.

While our pilots, with an operating aircraft, sit idle in an FBO for 6-10 hours.

It is also curious that the pilot union refused the company's offer to have a third party "wage comparison" ...

The person you referred to was rejected because he has no background in fractional or corporate operations. He is an airline pilot who has professed a coming pilot shortage for the last 15 years. Ah...forget it, just Google him...you'll see what I mean. He sent a letter to the pilots admitting his "limited understanding" of fractional operations. Wonder what was wrong with the NBAA and fractional industry salary info they already had?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hey El Chup:


If you could have made 120K more at Citation Shares or 60K more as a bus driver why did you sign up at Netjets?


....

 

[El Chupacabra]

I have an idea. Lets everybody (VPs to office folks) work for NJA SIC pay. So Uncle Scrooge and Mr Marley can make their 7% profit.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Hey El Chup:


If you could have made 120K more at Citation Shares or 60K more as a bus driver why did you sign up at Netjets?


....

If I knew it would take this long to get the contract done I would have left. We have always seemed to be 6 months away from "Kick ass" pay for years now. Yes I could have made the $120K at CS I turned down the offer over 5 years ago. So only now that I make almost as much as their starting pay it does not make sense to go there. I am one month away from exceeding that pay by a couple thousand.

 

[I-R-DXR]

This claim by the company only goes to demonstrate how low the Pilot pay is. If they can give annual payraises that large yet even after that large raise , the average Captains pay at NJA would need to be RAISED an additional 33% just to equal the STARTING pay at one of our competitors Citation Shares.

Remember he said:

Don't get me wrong - fair pay for crews is what everyone wants.

The statement in question was how much year was the payraise you get? Did your pay raise stop when the contract became ammendable?


Also his statement:

Economics 101: The Employer is the risk-taker. Employees exist to serve the needs of the company, not the other way around.

If that hurts, then either someone misled you or your expectations got distorted along the way.

I took my job because they made me an offer I could accept and support my family with. You MUST had done the same. This whole union-pilot-strike ordeal seems as if you took a job that paid a low wage then with your union as a tool are now forcing the company to pay a wage it does not want to. (or maybe cant)

I understand you folks want more pay - I want a happy crew to work with (believe me I do).

Am I the only one who sees it in this way or am I wrong?

If all the crews on NJ would quit tomorrow would a slew of crews take the job for the same pay? Honest question here guys cause if the answer is yes - That is where your trouble lies.

 

[I-R-DXR]

El Chup-

Sorry for your loss but its seems you took a chance and took the job based off promises.

 

[I-R-DXR]

NJA CPT

Wonder what was wrong with the NBAA and fractional industry salary info they already had?

Can you please enlighten me.

By saying NBAA pay does that mean the same as Corporate Flight Department pay?

Thanks

 

[h25b]

If I knew it would take this long to get the contract done I would have left. We have always seemed to be 6 months away from "Kick ass" pay for years now. Yes I could have made the $120K at CS I turned down the offer over 5 years ago. So only now that I make almost as much as their starting pay it does not make sense to go there. I am one month away from exceeding that pay by a couple thousand.

This is the most common mistake made by pilots in terms of career planning. A wise man told me once NEVER to stick it out somewhere hoping things will change for the better. I fell victim to this one and stayed somewhere way to long while turning down other offers. No such thing as loyalty anymore (either way)...

Do what is best FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, don't dilute yourself in to thinking that things are going to improve that dramatically even after you get your contract. Typically the chest thumping ultra-pro-union types like "Chup" will be just as militant after the contract as they were just before. It'll just be about some other issue. Doesn't matter anyway, he'll probably never go anywhere else anyway.

 

[x402]

As long as we're throwing out flame bait.


Where's my release?

Sorry, dispatch is busy surfing the web.

 

[I-R-DXR]

As long as we're throwing out flame bait.


Where's my release?

Sorry, dispatch is busy surfing the web.

LOL

Sorry guys but the flightinfo board has the "Red Screen of Death". Nogo at NJ.

 

[I-R-DXR]

Or what about my standard answer:



"Have you checked the fax machine for paper sir"


.

 

[IFlyOU]

Or what about my standard answer:



"Have you checked the fax machine for paper sir"


.

yeah, sometimes CS will send brief sheets and dispatch will send the release at the same time and it'll screw up the fax machine.

CS can tell you if the dispatch release is there. a lot of times, the release is there waiting or on its way (unless it's an hour or two before the flight). this accounts for about 50% or more of all of the calls to dispatch (just an estimate)

 

[x402]

It's amazing the FBO's don't surcharge us for all the paper we use.

 

[I-R-DXR]

We kill many trees

 

[dsptchrnja]

The company has already promised that there will be NO lay offs if there is strike. Having trouble believing that statement? I wonder why?

I can trust the company to keep their end of the deal - they have a proven track record. They have never threatened my job - I can't say the same for pilots anymore. There is no telling how far you will go to get your demands... that is the real threat to this company.

Your not only biting THE hand that feeds you - your biting all the hands that feed you. In everyone of your examples it's interesting you always use STARTING pay. Wonder why. Is it you've been here long enough to realized when you put your time in the rewards will eventually come? Isn't that how our parents did it? Not until our generation did anyone expect to live like their parents curent level during our first 10 years of career. We are the "got to have it NOW!" generation - "or else I'll make you give it to me". Nice - let's teach our kids that and see where it gets them.

Again - fair pay is good. Good pay is better. Threatening the existence of the company you work for - is bad. Don't play the victim - it's not working. You work for a company that has unique challenges and don't forget - they are STILL new at this - we're still learning to walk. You expected what? Southwest? Delta? COTA? Don't bother getting a job there - you will still be miserable.

 

[ProFracPilot]

It's amazing the FBO's don't surcharge us for all the paper we use.

Oh, I dunno. I think the $400+ "ramp" fee @ Signature - MIA (just to name one) pretty much covers 10 or 20 sheets of paper.

 

[dsptchrnja]

There are JetCard companies that charge LESS THAN WE DO that are basically charter brokers. They make a profit. .

I can't speak for anyone else...

Let me spell it out:

Sell-off's are bad and used only to fulfill the company's contractual obligation to the owner. This is just common sense. Available crews never sit idly by while NetJets flights get sold off. Owners don't like it. Company loses money every time and there is no incentive for them ever to do it, monetarily speaking.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Wonder what was wrong with the NBAA and fractional industry salary info they already had?

We aren't talking Salary - we are talking company profits. You have no idea where the company stands financially (either do I other than what I stated earlier) because for some reason your union won't allow a third-party to analyze it. Are you afriad of what you might find out? If it would only better your case - than your union would have jumped all over it. Last I heard NetJets still has that offer on the table.

 

[x402]

Let me spell it out:

Sell-off's are bad and used only to fulfill the company's contractual obligation to the owner. This is just common sense. Available crews never sit idly by while NetJets flights get sold off. Owners don't like it. Company loses money every time and there is no incentive for them ever to do it, monetarily speaking.

You can get a charter any day of the week for less than Marquis cardholders pay per hour. So to say the company has NO incentive to sell off is not true. Owners don't like vendors, they like the guys with the silly ties, that's the problem.

 

[Some Dude]

It was reported in Aviation International News that Netjets made 191 MILLION dollars last year. That was 80 MILLION more than the previous year. Check the the Berkshire Hathaway reports we made a boat load of money. Why DispatcherNJA decides to believe Boisture and not the actual reports filed by Berkshire Hathaway to their shareholders is a mystery.Maybe the dispatcher should get off the internet and get my flight plan filed to a closed airport with minimum fuel through level five and six thunderstorms with an alternate that has notams with nav aids decommissioned. That is a pretty typical of a release.

When you get done with that then go back on the internet at your desk and read the Berkshire Hathaway financial reports. Educate yourself about how much money this place is really making and stop believing the lies being told to you why you can't get a raise.

 

[NJA Capt]

Available crews never sit idly by while NetJets flights get sold off.

Sorry, we see this personally every day. Hot stby while vendors depart with our pax.