Netjet billboard @ TEB

[G4dude]

Kinda hard to follow the rest of your post when it starts out so incorrectly. NetJets is a cash cow. They can pay us a living wage and still rake in obscene amounts of money.

Sorry, I wasn't clear with that post. I meant when you strike, he won't be making money, and might be motivated to rid himself of all this trouble. I probably would, if I were him. He is a lot smarter than me, though, even if he did want Arnold to raise taxes.

 

[Grizz]

Ok G4, my response is just as pithy. Mr. Buffett knows that he's got this huge cash cow and finally we're in a position to force a work action. He then decides 1) To pay us more and keep his cash cow or 2) Let us strike, stop the cash flow, piss off the customers, etc. and then sell the business. Yeah, I can see why you think option 2 is the smarter business decision.

 

[I-R-DXR]

Ok G4, my response is just as pithy. Mr. Buffett knows that he's got this huge cash cow and finally we're in a position to force a work action. He then decides 1) To pay us more and keep his cash cow or 2) Let us strike, stop the cash flow, piss off the customers, etc. and then sell the business. Yeah, I can see why you think option 2 is the smarter business decision.

Grizz-

How do you know its a cash cow? Granted they cant say they are making money hand over fist - the customer would get upset. How do you (or the union) get the knowledge on how much is made? Did you get a 3rd party to audit the books?

No flame intended here Grizz - just wondering where the numbers come from.

 

[Starman]

I-R,

The money trail is easy to follow if you just look hard enough. Read some of the posts about the relationship between NetJets and Flight Safety and what we pay for sims is a good place to start.

 

[Starman]

You might want to check the price of oil in White Plains too. Coco Chanel would be proud of what they get for a quart of Pennzoil there. We generally order two if able. Another $150 bucks slides from NJA to EJM. Nice.

 

[netjetwife]

Along with the pricey oil, the NJA pilots also pay a $300 ramp fee at HPN which belongs to NetJets Inc. Don't forget that NJA also subsidizes the expansion of other NJs around the world. NJE is a good example. The profits of NJA are shuffled off to NJ Inc, whose books they refused to open--no surprise there--while holding out the NJA books. Think of the classic shell game and you'll be on your way to understanding the situation. NJ Inc gives 7% of their profits right off the top to Berkshire-Hathaway.

Additionally, the pilots see a blatant waste of resources, while on the road, on a regular basis. While dodging piles of manure, you don't actually have to see the (cash) cow to know it exists!

 

[I-R-DXR]

I agree

-but then you or the next person really doesnt know the real amounts. Its all just a guess based off what you see?

You are betting that the company can afford XXX dollars based off pricey oil or ramp fees?

My hope is that this ends with something both the union and company can live with. Lets hope

 

[Grizz]

I-R-DXR -

I don't know all the details because I'm not priivy to them but I'll point out the problem I've always had with NetJets and BH crying poor during negotiations -

If NetJets were really a problem child and causing them the problems they claim - why hang on to it? WB isn't stupid. He must be making a buck or two regardless of the numbers he reports backto us.

 

[Jolimon]

I agree

-but then you or the next person really doesnt know the real amounts. Its all just a guess based off what you see?

You are betting that the company can afford XXX dollars based off pricey oil or ramp fees?

My hope is that this ends with something both the union and company can live with. Lets hope

great post. Netjets didn't get where they are by being stupid.There is a salary they can pay and make a profit and a salary they can pay and lose money. They will not lose money you will lose your job.

 

[El Chupacabra]

great post. Netjets didn't get where they are by being stupid.There is a salary they can pay and make a profit and a salary they can pay and lose money. They will not lose money you will lose your job.

The proposed Captains payscale ( to fly Citation X, Falcon 2000 etc.) which we just turned down is exactly the same as what the Columbus Ohio Transportation Authority (COTA) pays Busdrivers. The busdrivers are UAW... did not believe me until I showed them. ie. 5th yr Citation X PIC pay = COTA 5th yr Busdriver pay... ZERO OVERNIGHTS PER YEAR!


OOPS I mean we would have matched Busdriver pay if we had accepted the raise the company offered. As it stands the busdriver makes 9K more than I do!

COTA is Hiring!​

Bus OperatorOperationsHS Dip. or GED. Have a Steady work history. No history of moving violations.Responsible for operating a Motor Coach in a safe, on-time manne



​

COTA is getting LIGHT RAIL. Pay for Light Rail is expected to be even higher!

http://www.cotafasttrax.com/

If I lose my job, I know where I can get a raise! ALL ABOARD!

 

[Hogprint]

Shamtulli has said in the past that if we give him the time to get market share, then he would take care of us (pay).

He has the market share, now it's time to pay the piper.

You need look no further than the aircraft Netjets has bought with options to buy more. You can't cry poor on one hand and then out of the other make deals on 100 Hawkers (400s/800s).

Am I off base on this?

 

[dsptchrnja]

I don't know all the details because I'm not priivy to them....

You can't have a reasonable discusion without knowing the facts:

NetJets (not including NJI or NJE) has lost $6 million in the first quarter of 2005.

This is straight from the CFO's mouth - now public information... primarily caused by a major increase in sell-offs... which was caused by lack of a/c production... all caused by higher demand for NetJet's product.

Which brings up the reply to Hogprint:

"You can't cry poor on one hand and then out of the other make deals on 100 Hawkers (400s/800s). "​

NetJets doesn't go out and buy too many a/c in the hopes that owners will come along and purchase shares. They respond to the demand. The BBJ is an exception. There is a long waiting period for owners to actually get on the a/c they own - not sure how long - quite a few months - which, in turn, goes back to the amount of sell-offs - they don't make the owner wait, to my knowledge, he can fly on the existing fleet when the check clears - putting more demand on the existing fleet - creating more sell-offs.​

This is the only business I'm aware of in the world that loses money when high demand picks up suddenly. For you guys that think the company would just assume operate with vendor a/c during a strike - think again - we lose $3 for every $1 revenue on Vendor flights.

As for WB - he initially invested $$ to Netjets anticipationg/asking that it would return 7% a year - so far, 5 years I think, we never have. Last year was the closest year. This year we aren't even in the black.

If you think NetJets can afford to pay what the Pilots are demanding - think again. It is also curious that the pilot union refused the company's offer to have a third party "wage comparison" so everyone can talk about the facts instead of just drooling over WB's wallet.

 

[dsptchrnja]

I say go ahead and strike! What do you have to lose? .... Things can only get better....

I believe this is spelled s-e-l-f-i-s-h

Oh, it can get a lot worse... if this company goes south because of a strike, the pilots will have a lot of explaining to do to the other thousands of employees at NetJets who like to feed their kids and pay some bills. Remember them...? They are the ones content making 3-5% annual pay increases while the pilot force earns 7-12%. The ones who MAKE their own lunch and bring it to work!

Don't get me wrong - fair pay for crews is what everyone wants. I have flown with you guys and your the best pilots I've ever known. We want you to be content and stick around for the long run. Everyone wants NetJets to continue to be a place to grow.

But anyone who WANTS a strike has the mentality you just described... no one forced you to work here - wasn't it voluntary? Did they lie to you and tell you your schedule would never change and your food would always show up just like you ordered it or that you would never have to work a 14 hour day?

Economics 101: The Employer is the risk-taker. Employees exist to serve the needs of the company, not the other way around.

If that hurts, then either someone misled you or your expectations got distorted along the way.

 

[LR45JI]

I see you got the memo........what a fine piece of work that was - the propoganda machine is working overtime.

You may preach Econ 101 how about Union Busting 101: Whipsaw everyone against each other.

Enjoy the kool-aid.

 

[x402]

I believe this is spelled s-e-l-f-i-s-h

Oh, it can get a lot worse... if this company goes south because of a strike, the pilots will have a lot of explaining to do to the other thousands of employees at NetJets who like to feed their kids and pay some bills. Remember them...? They are the ones content making 3-5% annual pay increases while the pilot force earns 7-12%. The ones who MAKE their own lunch and bring it to work!

Don't get me wrong - fair pay for crews is what everyone wants. I have flown with you guys and your the best pilots I've ever known. We want you to be content and stick around for the long run. Everyone wants NetJets to continue to be a place to grow.

But anyone who WANTS a strike has the mentality you just described... no one forced you to work here - wasn't it voluntary? Did they lie to you and tell you your schedule would never change and your food would always show up just like you ordered it or that you would never have to work a 14 hour day?

Economics 101: The Employer is the risk-taker. Employees exist to serve the needs of the company, not the other way around.

If that hurts, then either someone misled you or your expectations got distorted along the way.

The company has already promised that there will be NO lay offs if there is strike. Having trouble believing that statement? I wonder why?

Yes, the company has lied many times, interviewers, owners services and schedulers for a few in my case, and I'm not alone.

My raise this year is < 4%, I have know idea why you believe mgt when they tell you this stuff, and 4% of nothing is still nothing.

Don't close your eyes and start drinking the company kool aid, they'll be coming for you next.

 

[x402]

This is straight from the CFO's mouth - now public information... primarily caused by a major increase in sell-offs... which was caused by lack of a/c production... all caused by higher demand for NetJet's product.


Maybe they shouldn't have sold off half the core fleet.
How can you use their numbers and not include the most glaring mistake they have made since the last 'white knight' arrived on the property?
Do you consider the over selling of Marquis cards to be a contributor to the problem?
How about failure to steamline MEL procedures or better scheduling of MX?
These don't even begin to take into account the fee structure for EJM. FSI and NJA Sales, that is moving money as fast as we (NJA)can make it for BH.
Econ 101? Maybe you should have taken some advance courses, I know BB and RTS have.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Grasshopper,

"One is lead to believe a LIE, when one sees not through the eye," -- The Rubayat of Omar Khayam



​

1. The company loses money on selloffs? That is very interesting.


There are JetCard companies that charge LESS THAN WE DO that are basically charter brokers. They make a profit. Now how is it that we charge more than the charterbrokers (and when we do a selloff we basically are a charter broker) and lose money?

The reason is the profits from the Charter (selloff) go to EJM Charter.

Also we are losing mioney on Operations they claim... how much did they make SELLING the airplanes that they do not have on the property? See NetJets Sales is a different company. Are the profits from NJS included in the company's claims? Are the profits from Marquis included?

2. Payraises.

First this is a Lie and I have the spreadsheet all worked out to prove it. But lets for the moment entertain this ridiculous claim. First I'll tell a story.

While campaigning for President, Ross Perot commented on the claim that Governor Bill Clinton had DOUBLED the Economy of Arkansas. Mr Perot said, "When all you have is a Penny it only takes another penny to double it."


​

This claim by the company only goes to demonstrate how low the Pilot pay is. If they can give annual payraises that large yet even after that large raise , the average Captains pay at NJA would need to be RAISED an additional 33% just to equal the STARTING pay at one of our competitors Citation Shares.


Thats right. Add up all the monies paid to Captains at NJA for pilots with 1 to 14 yrs with the Company ... divide by the number of Captains and you would need to increase that number by 33% to match new Captain pay at CS. When all you have is a Penny it only takes another penny to double it

Put another way. After 6 yrs on the X... I have made $120,000 less in wages than I would have if I instead flew at CS in a CJ.

This company has been operating with a 33 to 50% discount on Pilot labor costs in comparison some of the competition. FACT FACT FACT!

And we can't make money? This is a LIE or an incompetent management who should all be FIRED.

We can't make money while paying Pilots flying 20 million dollar Jets less than COTA busdrivers? A LOT LESS! As a COTA busdriver I would have earned $60K more than I have over the last 6 yrs as a NJA Captain.

Please... Step away from the Kool Aid.

 

[semperfido]

as long as there are people lined up at the employment door willing to take that job management probably has a hard time seeing the need to pay more.

 

[I-R-DXR]

I think (maybe wrong here) the Company said its taking steps to correct the core fleet issue.

Company propoganda? maybe

6S's propoganda? maybe

Goes both ways. The common worker seems to be stuck in the middle. As for the payraise what does your ammendable contract say you get every year? Has your pay frozen since the contract was ammendable?

I believe the Marquis card program is what helped us stay afloat during tough times - no data just personal opinion. As for the mx cntrl outfit Ive seen far worse in my day. They may need some tweaking just like every department. They have a huge task of dealing with a slew of different types of aircraft. No small task to be sure.

Oh, it can get a lot worse... if this company goes south because of a strike, the pilots will have a lot of explaining to do to the other thousands of employees at NetJets who like to feed their kids and pay some bills.

That is my worst fear. It goes far beyond the pilots pay here folks. Remember that.

 

[NJA Capt]

You can't have a reasonable discusion without knowing the facts:

Which you don't have.

- we lose $3 for every $1 revenue on Vendor flights.

While our pilots, with an operating aircraft, sit idle in an FBO for 6-10 hours.

It is also curious that the pilot union refused the company's offer to have a third party "wage comparison" ...

The person you referred to was rejected because he has no background in fractional or corporate operations. He is an airline pilot who has professed a coming pilot shortage for the last 15 years. Ah...forget it, just Google him...you'll see what I mean. He sent a letter to the pilots admitting his "limited understanding" of fractional operations. Wonder what was wrong with the NBAA and fractional industry salary info they already had?