Net Jets

[Schrode]

Dispatcher - It pains me that you are one of the guys that I spoke to last week. I treat all of you with nothing but respect, is this how you are when I walk out of the room? Do you have a problem with me making a living working at NJA as a pilot? The proposal did not meet my standard. BB even recognizes that it was not up to standard (at least that's what he told me last week in recurrent, unless he lied to me - why don't you ask him?). We are not discussing your paycheck (because we could ya know) - that is none of my business - and my paycheck is none of yours. So stay out of mine, and I'll stay out of yours.

You are right, after all - as far as discussing FO pay. We all know how much THAT sucks! Although, it doesn't suck as much as say, first year Dispactch pay does it ($35,000/year in CMH)? Or first year Flight Attendant pay - does it? or should we discuss that guy emptying your trash can? Can you name ANYONE at NetJets that makes LESS than a first year Pilot? I can't. Think about it. What kind of company are we anyway - how do we make money here?

Sadly, my profession has not rewarded me as much as I thought it would. I have put in a few years, some harder than others (21 to be exact), and I still earn less than $60,000 a year - not bad you say? My mortage is $25,000 per year (interest only mind you). If you are any good at math, you will quickly realize $60,000 from my viewpoint is not very much money. Do I deserve more? Um, YES. Will NetJets pay me more - WATCH. Bash the Union all you want - but it isn't about the union. It's about 2000 pilots that all agree, and are committed to getting a fair salary. Maybe all you dispatchers should get together and ask for a little more pay - course, the'll just fire you for asking and I'll have to do all the work again (still have to watch everything you give me anyway) - but that would free up some cash . . . Maybe that's what you're afraid of - the pilots doing YOUR job, getting YOUR paycheck . . . I'd vote for that - I can punch numbers into the software as good as you. Let me put that little note in the ole suggestion box.

You are either with me, or you are against me. Pick a side and live with it.

Sorry, guys - I guess he got to me. Off my soap box.

 

[Majik]

Furthermore, interesting how folks would rather make NJA out to be the "bad guy" when they are the ones wanting and asking to increase FO salaries and the pilot union rejected this proposal. The proposal was made independent of current bargaining...free and clear. Can't have happy FO's now can we pilot union? That perceivingly might mess up what's in it for you wouldn't it?
Who's looking out for who?

Let's see if you really want to understand, or if you are just pushing your agenda...
Company needs to attract new hires. They are unable to meet hiring quotas because prospective newhires say the starting pay is too little.
Company goes to Union and says, "we want to modify a portion of the contract to help us get out of a jam." Union says, "We want you to modify the entire contract to help us get out of a jam." Company says, "No, we just want to address the part that helps us out." Union says, "Come back and see us when you are ready to help all of the pilots, not just the few that will help alleviate your current problem."

So this proposal WAS NOT made independent of current bargaining. It is a part of negotiations. The union finally held back something the company wanted in an effort to gain something for the majority of pilots, not just a select few.

To answer your question, "Who's looking out for who?" The union is looking out for the majority of the membership. Good decision!

 

[dsptchrnja]

Schrode, I don't know where to begin. You are making a lot of false assumptions. If, in fact, we met last week - I know for certain we did not talk about anything close to pilot contracts. Because if you had asked my opinion you would not get anything different from what you get from me on this board. At work I treat every pilot with the utmost of respect, professionalism, and dignity. I make no attempt to figure out if they are the small minority of troublemakers - but even if I knew for certain they are I would treat them with the same professionalism. Most of my time on this board is spent addressing the 5% of the lame-brains - not the 95% of pilots patiently waiting for the negotiations to complete its course.

Go back and read my post - all of my posts. You will see I am FOR our pilots - and a pay increase. I am AGAINST the small minority who choose get on this board and misrepresent or attempt to slander the reputation of a company that I take pride in so they can push their own personal agenda. Some throw in just enough truth to make it sound good. Some are downright malicious. But rarely are any objective.

If you are not part of that small minority (and I suspect that you are not) than you should not be offended. The posts concerning FO pay are simply less than objective when you consider the entire truth (which has yet to be revealed). I'm not saying the Union does not have it's reasons or motives for declining the company's offer, we all know they do.

99% of your post did not even address the issue that was raised in my post so I'm not going to go off on a tangent with you on this. You want to debate fair pay - been there - done that - you said it - none of my business. Let's just let the company and union do their thing and we will do what we do best while they sort out this mess.

What's this business of picking sides? Thought we were all on the same team (minus 5% or so).

I am tempted to comment on your mortgage and your current salary but will say this instead since you are my senior in this industry: I admire you for your 21 years of hard work. I am certain you have earned every penny.

As GH says: Glad to be on your team. (ARRGGH, now you've got me quoting GH!).

 

[dsptchrnja]

Let's see if you really want to understand, or if you are just pushing your agenda...
Company needs to attract new hires. They are unable to meet hiring quotas because prospective newhires say the starting pay is too little.
Company goes to Union and says, "we want to modify a portion of the contract to help us get out of a jam." Union says, "We want you to modify the entire contract to help us get out of a jam." Company says, "No, we just want to address the part that helps us out." Union says, "Come back and see us when you are ready to help all of the pilots, not just the few that will help alleviate your current problem."

So this proposal WAS NOT made independent of current bargaining. It is a part of negotiations. The union finally held back something the company wanted in an effort to gain something for the majority of pilots, not just a select few.

To answer your question, "Who's looking out for who?" The union is looking out for the majority of the membership. Good decision!

Point well taken. I knew you would say that.. you've said it before. But in order for you to make your opinion here you have to assume the company's motives are exactly as you detailed.

So let's assume, for argument's sake, that it has happened exactly as you suggested. Well then, I guess all the original accusations and blame placed entirely on the company can be thrown out the window. Sounds like they would be both equally responsible for low FO pay.

We can both agree on the moral of the story... let's just get the dang contract over with.

 

[Some Dude]

5% trouble makers? Ha, I can't believe you people believe whatever management tells you. My company announcement about the trouble makers didn't even have a signature of WHO SENT THE MESSAGE. The message was baseless, factless and that is why the coward didn't even sign his or her name. Show me any proof that there are 5% of the pilots causing "trouble." I think the all of the pilots are just following the rules, MEMOS, and the FOM. There is no proof of any conspiracy by these so called 5%ers.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Dude, do you really want to play this game?

 

[hydrarkt]

I do... he's right. There is probably 75% participation in flying the contract to the letter. That is the company's problem. They are finding less and less pilots to do them favors. Why? Because they don't appreciate any of it. How do I know this? Because, in the past, when I did fly over 14 hours or do a quick turn to help scheduling or wait to write something up, I was subsequently abused by the same people I helped. Now I do NO favors... I mean, how many times do you have to get plugged in the ass before you stop bending over to pick up the soap?
Now I want to be compensated and treated as the professional I am. Until that time, I will only do the minimum. And believe me... there is a LOT more than 5% with this attitude!!

 

[Diesel]

Plugged in the ass picking up the soap?

Now that's an image.

Hydrarkt is right. The sad part is every day this drags on is another day that a pilot becomes more frustrated.

It's amazing that the pilots have gone this long while upholding their professionalism and safety record.

Hydrkt- Phone was in my pocket i missed the call. Tia's was jumpin

 

[squonk]

Majik posted:

So this proposal WAS NOT made independent of current bargaining. It is a part of negotiations. The union finally held back something the company wanted in an effort to gain something for the majority of pilots, not just a select few.

The company is slowly learning. We are NOT giving them relief at every turn. We are demanding something in return. Like a equitable contract for ALL pilots and like you posted, not just a select few.

They are slowly learning....

 

[Some Dude]

Dispatcher, I'm not playing any games. I don't know what you are referring too. Could you be more specific? We just fly and due our jobs according to the FARs, FOM, company memos, and the contract. What games?

 

[dsptchrnja]

If your DNIF rate the last few months has not significantly increased (less any unforseen illness you may have suffered), and the rate at which you write up your aircraft has not significantly increased, or you are not doing these things with the intent to get more of the company's attention on your dissatisfaction, all the while shrugging your shoulders and excusing yourself by giving us the horse-hooey "what do you mean? I'm not breaking any rules, I just don't want to do the company any favors any more, what are you talking about?"..... then I guess your not playing any games.


The minority that are doing this apparently don't have enough faith in the union to negotiate a successful contract without their "help".

 

[dsptchrnja]

I will only do the minimum.

Spoken like the true 5th percentile. Meanwhile the rest of us will continue to bust our a$$ to make up for it.

 

[Starman]

Let me know when you get your ATP dispatch, until then you're just self-loading cargo. Your hump busting don't make the trains run on itme.

 

[Some Dude]

I just call in my times. I do NOT speak to the company about anything. I have been told a thousand times by the company that I and the rest of the pilots do NOT have the big picture. So, now when I see the companys mistakes and how screwed up things are going to be I just let them happen. I don't worry if Fort Fumble dropped the ball again. I just let it lie there until I'm told what to do. I will never offer any suggestions to fix things because I'm sure a screen reader 3000 miles away has a better picture of what is going on than I do. At least thats what the company tells me.

 

[ManChild]

Sorry to interrupt, but back to the original topic.....if they aren't meeting their hiring goals, are the current mins still standing? Also what are the medical benefits like?

 

[Majik]

Point well taken. I knew you would say that.. you've said it before. But in order for you to make your opinion here you have to assume the company's motives are exactly as you detailed.

So let's assume, for argument's sake, that it has happened exactly as you suggested. Well then, I guess all the original accusations and blame placed entirely on the company can be thrown out the window. Sounds like they would be both equally responsible for low FO pay.

We can both agree on the moral of the story... let's just get the dang contract over with.

Let's see, I think the company wanted to raise FO pay for two primary reasons:
1 - To try to entice applicants to apply so they meet their hiring requirements.
2 - So the new-hire salarys wouldn't look so low when they are made public in the media.
What do you think the company's motives were when they attempted to unilaterally raise FO pay only?

I give the company part of the responsibility for current FO pay. The remainder lies with the pilot group that ratified the 1998 contract and said it was good enough. I congratulate our leadership for not allowing the company to wiggle out of a position that they may be ashamed of publically.

 

[FL450]

If your DNIF rate the last few months has not significantly increased (less any unforseen illness you may have suffered), and the rate at which you write up your aircraft has not significantly increased, or you are not doing these things with the intent to get more of the company's attention on your dissatisfaction, all the while shrugging your shoulders and excusing yourself by giving us the horse-hooey "what do you mean? I'm not breaking any rules, I just don't want to do the company any favors any more, what are you talking about?"..... then I guess your not playing any games.


The minority that are doing this apparently don't have enough faith in the union to negotiate a successful contract without their "help".

Let's look at the 4 years of negotiations. Tiddly winks. Funny how the company is now motivated to negotiate at a more progressive pace, even without the presence of a mediator. Kind of equates to a person being more motivated to buy a car if the one he/she has isn't running, wouldn't you agree.

I guess there are still those of you that don't see the Company's responsibility for parking this jalopy on the side of the road. It's a shame. It's also going to take a good sized tow truck!

 

[Bad Monkey!]

Just stick a rag in the gas hole, light a match and watch it burn! Oh yea that's right, we don't have to do that because management is doing that right now!

Complete MORONS from the Frank Lorenzo school of management!

 

[dsptchrnja]

What do you think the company's motives were when they attempted to unilaterally raise FO pay only?

As I indicated before, I would guess that the prusumptions you made earlier are probably not that far out of line.

My whole point in entering this discussion was to show that it is pointless to get on these boards and make FO pay a public spectacle since the company can't raise it even when they want to (until the union agrees to a contract). Not to mention how very few pilots at NJA actually make this pay.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Funny how the company is now motivated to negotiate at a more progressive pace, even without the presence of a mediator. Kind of equates to a person being more motivated to buy a car if the one he/she has isn't running, wouldn't you agree.

Not sure what you mean by more progressive. They have been actively engaged the entire time, no more so today than 3 years ago. In fact it would have been in the company's best interest if they had settled a contract long before now - they knew that then.

 

[CE750Driver]

Dispatcher, if you truly believe it is 5% doing the min, you are so far off base you cant be helped. I would guess it is between 70 - 80 percent. I think you are like most of management. Turning a blind eye to the solidarity of the pilots and bleeding of money that is going on. I just hope that you and management realize this before the company is mortaly wounded.

But, if I had to guess, I think NJA will bleed to death first. BB's ego is that big.

 

[dsptchrnja]

I'm curious what makes you think your guess is accurate. Perhaps 70-80% of your friends or other pilots you talk to? Has the union published this statistic? How did you come up with it?

The exact number isn't exactly the point anyway. But I digress...I see every line of every crew 4 days a week and I can assure you that about 5% of all crews per day are doing the "minimum" as you say, or being downright dishonest (that is not for me to know or judge). Any objective person can also figure out that it could be much more than 5% of crews but they are not doing it 100% of the time. That is likely where yours and my numbers differ the most if truth be told.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Sorry to interrupt, but back to the original topic.....if they aren't meeting their hiring goals, are the current mins still standing? Also what are the medical benefits like?

As far as I know, still sticking to the mins. Medical is pretty good, several plans to choose from (HMO, EPO, PPO, etc).

Not sure what you mean by more progressive. They have been actively engaged the entire time, no more so today than 3 years ago.

Just found out that the company wants to meet every weekday til Sept 15th or an agreement is reached. Sounds more progressive to me. I wonder why?

 

[dukeofdub]

Funny

Just stick a rag in the gas hole, light a match and watch it burn! Oh yea that's right, we don't have to do that because management is doing that right now!

Complete MORONS from the Frank Lorenzo school of management!

BM you are TOOO funny. And you don't seem to get it and understand the logic. Both sides are motivated, or it appears that the COmpany is working to get the Union out of the hole they dug. Now isn't it about time for the MEC toget on with reviewing the books so we can get out of Abeyance and into real bargaining and release? I guess the MEC dcoesn't really want to negociate or they would be moving faster.

 

[Starman]

duke - you're an idiot and a company hack.

 

[CMHTroll]

Duke, there is no use trying to talk logic to Bad Monkey or Starman. They are Union Robots and don’t think for themselves. Either that or they are afraid to speak up and ask why it has taken the MEC since May to get an accountant, or they are part of the Union political machine. The only reason to drag out the accountant is for their political positioning. It has nothing with moving the process forward. Give up on these guys, they are not thinking logically. It looks to me like they are the Union hacks.

 

[Starman]

yawn - another company hack chimes in. How are the sell-offs going?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Holidays are right around the corner.

 

[Diesel]

I can't wait for the holidays. Actually i can't wait till another month or so.

 

[Diesel]

ahhh i see the company wants to meet every day till this thing is done or september rolls around.

Hmmmmmm I wonder why that is.