Net Jets Offers

[Bad Monkey!]

dsptchrNJA your such a dork. Get back into your latex and get whipped.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Ok, once more for the REALLY slow:

Actually, Cost-of-Living is NOT included in the current CBA. If it were, there would be the payscale we have now (YOS = Year of Signing), and several others that are for YOS+1, YOS+2, YOS+3, which would include a Cost of Living increase. This is the way it's done at airlines, and I was floored when I got here and saw we didn't have it. Stupid in my opinion. So a pilot (any seat, any year of service) in 1998 had SIGNIFICANTLY more buying power than a pilot today with the same seat/year.

So for example, a 5th year captain in 1998 made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2001 still made $60984. A 5th year captain in 2005 makes $60984. If the 1998 pilot bought something for $1000, for the 2001 pilot to buy the same item should have cost $1088. For the 2005 pilot to buy that item, it should cost $1157 or more, since there is no data on the actual 2005 COLA. So no, there has been no COLA on our rates, and yes, ALL the time covered by the CBA is affected by Cost of Living increases.

Grump - I know there are no specific COLA increases in the contract, but my point was that this was probably taken into account in the bargaining process and the scale that was set probably included a COLA number.....much the same way you want to add COLA right now to set the base for the new contract.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Your overlooking the obvious. The same 5th year NJA Capt in 1998 who made $61,000 is now making $88,000 in 2005. I'd say that keeps up with inflation - COLA or no COLA.

But a 5th year Captain in 1998 made much more money in real dollars than a 5th year Captain now. That's the definition of COLA - not the psuedoscience you tried to come up with. Longevity raises are not the same thing as a COLA. Never have been.

A 5th year captain making $61k in 1998 would have buying power of $71,513 in today's dollars, based on the federal COLA numbers.

As dsptchrNJA pointed out, that same captain is now making $88k, simply due to the longevity raises, which represents a 23% increase over the $71k number.

 

[abenaki]

Family Guy....

Yes, but the 5th year guy today is making LESS than the 5th guy guy of 1998........That's the bottom line.....So, "my" fifth year pay" today does not offer me the same buying power as teh 5th year guy in 1998. That's the issue at hand.

The fact that the 5th year guy is now making 80K is irrelevant to the fact that his pay NOW offers HIm less buying power that that level of pay in 1998.

There is no way that $61K in 1998 is the same as $61K now.....and that's what 5th people are making today......1998 5th year dollars.....So, we ARE going backwards no matter how you slice it....

My point is that thus far, the company has offered nothing but regressive pay scales thus far......And as I have pointed out, at the end of say, a four-year contract going out to '09, the $61K of 1998 has to be in the ballpark of over $81k TO SIMPLY KEEP THE PAY AT THE SAME BUYING-POWER LEVEL OF 61K IN 1998. ANYTHING SHORT OF THAT IS A REGRESSIVE CONTRACT AND OES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT WE ARE STILL UNDERPAID FOR THE INDUSTRY..

So, going back to "bargaining in good faith"...in 4 years, the company has failed to offer anything that is not badly regressive.

There is no way this pilot group will sign something that represents LESS money.

 

[igneousy2]

pilot shortage

You're right...their is no pilot shortage. However, nobody with any kind of experience will work for the wages that NJ is offering. I was about to apply but decided against it. I like the gateway airport concept but the pay...

I would have worked for the pay the gulfstream guys make but the minimums are ridicules.

I have 6000+tt, 1000+jet, 4000+ turbine, 500+ 121 turbine pic...but I can't be an FO on a G-IV...give me a break. Let's see...Gulfstreams got wings, push to go down, pull to go up... WTF!

And the irony is that if I go to the non gulfstream side I will never be qualified to go to the gulfstream side as I will never get that 500 hours of gulfstream time...ridicules

I wish you guys luck...united you bargain...divided you beg!

Later

 

[Ultra Grump]

Your overlooking the obvious. The same 5th year NJA Capt in 1998 who made $61,000 is now making $88,000 in 2005. I'd say that keeps up with inflation - COLA or no COLA.

No, I'm not overlooking anything. If you really want to be dense and look at the same person's pay from 1998 to today, and say that the money he makes now covers COLA, it does not allow for any increase for longevity (= experience). So it'd be ok with you to only get raises equal to COLA for the rest of your time at NJA? You wouldn't mind just "keeping up with inflation?" If it's not ok for you, why should it be for us?

 

[Ultra Grump]

A 5th year captain making $61k in 1998 would have buying power of $71,513 in today's dollars, based on the federal COLA numbers.

Boy do you need to go back to school and take some more math classes. And stay awake this time. Your numbers mean absolutely nothing. A 5th year captain making $61k in 1998 has no bearing on his buying power today. However, if this CBA had included a COLA (YOS+X), a 5th year captain today SHOULD be paid $71,494, based solely on actual COLA figures.

As dsptchrNJA pointed out, that same captain is now making $88k, simply due to the longevity raises, which represents a 23% increase over the $71k number.

A 5th year captain in 2005 has buying power of $60,984. Not $71,000 and not $88,000. He gets the same $60984 that a 5th year captain got 7 years ago. The 5th year captain of 1998 is now a 12th year captain. He is being paid $87,996. A 12th year captain in 1998 was being paid $87,996. Where is that COLA again? Or is a 12th year pilot worth less in real dollars today than in 1998?

Here's something else to think about: the average COLA since 1975 is 4.5%. So when looking forward and trying to come up with a reasonable cost of living adjustment, using the average of the last 7 years of the contract (2.3%) is pretty short-sighted. Especially considering the cost of housing and oil these days. I don't expect you'll be seeing many sub-3% COLAs in the years to come.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Boy do you need to go back to school and take some more math classes. And stay awake this time. Your numbers mean absolutely nothing. A 5th year captain making $61k in 1998 has no bearing on his buying power today. However, if this CBA had included a COLA (YOS+X), a 5th year captain today SHOULD be paid $71,494, based solely on actual COLA figures.

You need to go back to school and take some more english courses. If you did then you would probably realize that our posts made the exact same point.

Here's something else to think about: the average COLA since 1975 is 4.5%. So when looking forward and trying to come up with a reasonable cost of living adjustment, using the average of the last 7 years of the contract (2.3%) is pretty short-sighted. Especially considering the cost of housing and oil these days. I don't expect you'll be seeing many sub-3% COLAs in the years to come.

Yes, inflation has averaged 4.5% over the last 30 years.

But are you going to enter into a 30 year contract or a 5 year contract?

If you are going to enter into a 5 year contract, then the more recent history is more appropriate.

 

[dukeofdub]

Boy do you need to go back to school and take some more math classes. And stay awake this time. Your numbers mean absolutely nothing. A 5th year captain making $61k in 1998 has no bearing on his buying power today. However, if this CBA had included a COLA (YOS+X), a 5th year captain today SHOULD be paid $71,494, based solely on actual COLA figures.

A 5th year captain in 2005 has buying power of $60,984. Not $71,000 and not $88,000. He gets the same $60984 that a 5th year captain got 7 years ago. The 5th year captain of 1998 is now a 12th year captain. He is being paid $87,996. A 12th year captain in 1998 was being paid $87,996. Where is that COLA again? Or is a 12th year pilot worth less in real dollars today than in 1998?

Here's something else to think about: the average COLA since 1975 is 4.5%. So when looking forward and trying to come up with a reasonable cost of living adjustment, using the average of the last 7 years of the contract (2.3%) is pretty short-sighted. Especially considering the cost of housing and oil these days. I don't expect you'll be seeing many sub-3% COLAs in the years to come.

What cost $61000 (the wage of a 5 year Captain in 1998) would cost $70685.03 in 2005. That same pilot who is now on the 12th year of pay and makes $88,000 has outpaced inflation and realized a net gain in true yearly income of over $18,000 over the past seven years.



These figures are easy to understand by going to the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site and use the CPI (Consume Price Index) inflation calculator. As for your estimation of Cola at 4.5%, I have only reviewed the numbers since 1998 and they are listed below. (Taken from the Social Security government web site as COLA.) They are the relevant numbers since they directly relate to the duration of the current contract.



1998 1.3%, 1999 2.5%, 2000 3.5%, 2001 2.6%, 2002 1.4%, 2003 2.1%, 2004 2.7%



You do have a solid argument that the base numbers do not have a COLA built in, and that a 5 year Captain is still making the same amount as a 5 year captain made 7 years ago. Using the inflation index calculator, 61,000 (in 2005) would be the same as if the pilot base salary was 51,000 in 1998. Yes, there does need to be some adjustment to meet a COLA environment. By this reasoning, a 5th year pilot should make 71,000 just to cover COLA, if all things are equal and there is no increase other than just inflation.

Everyone agrees that there needs to be change and adjustment. I see and understand your point and I understand FG's point. Basically they are pretty close. What is left is what should be included above COLA for merit increase (sorry, that was a slip for those people who are paid for their performance,) or adjustment for some other reason. There is the rub, and the difference of opinion, and what the negotiation is all about. How much more are pilots worth today, than they were worth 7 years ago? And are you comparing apples to apples. Is it the same number of days for that amount of pay?

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

Let me ask a question, if the IBT said the last TA was the richest in aviation history, and said this is a great deal. (the leaders against the last TA were the SU guys).

The leaders against the last POSTA were the pilots!!!! Thank God 1108 was formed by this pilot group! Thank the lord you guys are to stupid to realize you created 1108. You blew a big chance with that first TA, a very big chance!



Was the IBT national aviation guys lying to you then?

Lying may be too harsh a word- only giving you part of the story?



No just doing what 284 instructed. That's the reason 1108 was born! Not to mention the tactical mistake you guys made. You guys have dug your hole so deep it’s filling with water....



How do you know they are not only giving you part of the story now?

Because of the lies you and your bud cmhtroll spread every day on this board, day in day out. You must have been a MI geek in the Army because your psych-ops is old and stale.... Very transparent indeed.

 

[Lear70]

You're right...their is no pilot shortage. However, nobody with any kind of experience will work for the wages that NJ is offering. I was about to apply but decided against it. I like the gateway airport concept but the pay...

BINGO!

There's no way any self-respecting pilot of decent experience will bow to first (or second) year wages at NJA. I looked into it a while back when it became obvious that, at my regional, the QOL for a guy in the top 1/3 of the seniority list was 10-12 days off a month. In a nutshell, it took 30 seconds of looking at pay rates to realize there's simply no way to justify a move to NJA for ANY pilot with any real experience.

I would have worked for the pay the gulfstream guys make but the minimums are ridicules.

I have 6000+tt, 1000+jet, 4000+ turbine, 500+ 121 turbine pic...but I can't be an FO on a G-IV...give me a break. Let's see...Gulfstreams got wings, push to go down, pull to go up... WTF!

And the irony is that if I go to the non gulfstream side I will never be qualified to go to the gulfstream side as I will never get that 500 hours of gulfstream time...ridicules

Yeah, pretty stupid stuff... but it seems to be the norm for ANY Gulfstream gig, be it corporate or charter or NJI. You have to have the time to get the time... makes me wonder how anyone breaks into those gigs without inside connections (they probably don't).

God forbid they ever DO integrate the two companies - can you say "hostile work environment"? Deja vu a la' TWA and AA...

I wish you guys luck...united you bargain...divided you beg!

Better believe it brutha'!

 

[Ultra Grump]

You need to go back to school and take some more english courses. If you did then you would probably realize that our posts made the exact same point.

I guess some of us are just better at getting our point across then, huh?

Yes, inflation has averaged 4.5% over the last 30 years.

But are you going to enter into a 30 year contract or a 5 year contract?

If you are going to enter into a 5 year contract, then the more recent history is more appropriate.

Well, considering we're getting into year 8 of this contract...

 

[Ultra Grump]

That same pilot who is now on the 12th year of pay and makes $88,000 has outpaced inflation and realized a net gain in true yearly income of over $18,000 over the past seven years.

I agree with most of what you've said. However, you do realize that a gain of $18,000 over 7 years equates to $2500 per year? Or, at $88000, 2.9%. How much of a raise do you get per year? I sure hope it's more than that.

As for your estimation of Cola at 4.5%, I have only reviewed the numbers since 1998 and they are listed below. (Taken from the Social Security government web site as COLA.) They are the relevant numbers since they directly relate to the duration of the current contract.

Here you go: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/colaseries.html

Actually, the numbers since 1998 are only relevant in hindsight. When negotiating the 1998 contract, they did not have those numbers to use, obviously. So they would have been better served using a historical average, which should over time absorb any up- and down-swings in CPI. Thus 4.5%.

How much more are pilots worth today, than they were worth 7 years ago?

That's half the question. The other half is how underpaid were they to begin with?

 

[FAcFriend]

I agree with most of what you've said. However, you do realize that a gain of $18,000 over 7 years equates to $2500 per year? Or, at $88000, 2.9%. How much of a raise do you get per year? I sure hope it's more than that.[/font][/size]


Actually, the numbers since 1998 are only relevant in hindsight. When negotiating the 1998 contract, they did not have those numbers to use, obviously. So they would have been better served using a historical average, which should over time absorb any up- and down-swings in CPI. Thus 4.5%.

That's half the question. The other half is how underpaid were they to begin with?

UG- how much has the NBAA salary scale changed for the same time period. How much has the pay scale for other pilots changed during the same period.

I dont know-does anyone?

Plus using 4.5% cpi only works when the CPI is under 4.5%- if it was over 4>%% and you had negotiatd 4.5 you would be trying to go back to the table for more because it wasnt acurate. Good strategy but very transparent.

Lots of people are underpaid...or think they are..the true test of whether or not you are underpaid is to go look for another job. You dont have to take it, but if you look and dont get any offers for better jobs, then you are probably not underpaid.

 

[Bad Monkey!]

FAcFriend
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 208


Aircraft Experience: friends and family
Flight Experience: both
Ratings: none

One of my friends just left NutJets and starting pay is $120,000 yr. they bought his old house and paid him to move, paying for training, and paid him a nice signing bonus.

Yes, NutJets pays the least, because we suck the least.

I have better job offers that I have turned down, why? because it's personal now. I'm taking a stand for every pilot out there. If our pay goes up, which it will, it will raise the bar. After 20 years of the Frank Lorenzo's, Carl Ichon's, and Robert Crandall's destroying our profession it's now time to fight the fight and make management realize that the professional pilots will not tolerate anymore bullsh!t.

It's happing in every industry right now. Your job at McDonald's will be farmed out. When you pull up to the drive-up menu you will be connected to a worker in Banglagore.

Would you like flys with dat?

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm talking to a management mole with no experience.

Loser!