Ultra Grump
Mmmmm...beer....
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DO-82 driver
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Dspcther......I have been through a sinbgle carrier suit before and the Union side won. The evididence here is even greater. For you make make the comment you did about the Boss not wanting a single carrier for his company tells me you have no real knowledge of what is involved......Of course he doesn't, that's how you play one side against the other.
Either way, the FM's, Dispatchers, NJI and the rest of the employees in CMH really have no say in the matter.......Management and the Union will work it out...if not, the courts will.
Either way, the FM's, Dispatchers, NJI and the rest of the employees in CMH really have no say in the matter.......Management and the Union will work it out...if not, the courts will.
Family Guy--
Thank you for your reply...due to the fact that I can't seem to figure out how to view your response and type mine at the same time, this will probably be a mulit-part response....
First.....Your criteria for "job satisfaction" are good.....No arguments from me on that one. In regards to "company fit", I will say that I think an overhwelming number of us felt similar to how I first did when I got here.....When I first walked into the hangar at Bridgeway and saw the polished floors and the guy taking the "waterspots off the wings 'cause the owners don't like to see waterspots", I thought I'd found my "professional home".....and I did.....That was reinforced by the fact that customer service was a short distance behind safety. We had, what was it?, a full day on customer service during training and more customer service training during recurrent?
My point is this. The focus of NJA has changed and changed dramatically. No longer is "customer service" given as a class any more. No longer is it even mentioned in recurrent anymore since what's-his-name left a couple of years ago. The airplanes certainly do not look as good as they did a couple of years ago though I admit there has been some addressing of that issue.
When on tour up to a couple of years ago there was time to maybe sit down and have a hot meal somewhere or get a work out in a couple of times a tour which made the crews fresher and more able to take some of the longer days AND provide better customer service. Now it's 12+/- hours every day not so much to add to productivity it seems as it is to show some "crew utilization" statistics.
I could go on and on with what I perceive as negative changes here and changes that affect the "fit" from what was here before. There's even a joke out on the line that was NOT applicable a couple of years ago about "safety being #1 at Net Jets unless it intereferes with scheduling".......I could relate pages of examples of this but my point is that the culture has has changed, and not for the better for the employees nor for the owners satisfaction.
BB's philosophy of "doing more with less" is a good sound bite, but doesn't always translate well into a "frontline service" business.....and make no mistake about it, NJA doesn't sell airplanes or "fractional ownership" or anything else BUT SERVICE. That point was highly emphasized by the "service excellence" guy whom I mentioned......I have often wondered why his position was replaced and why service is no longer mentioned to the front line providers of that service.
Thank you for your reply...due to the fact that I can't seem to figure out how to view your response and type mine at the same time, this will probably be a mulit-part response....
First.....Your criteria for "job satisfaction" are good.....No arguments from me on that one. In regards to "company fit", I will say that I think an overhwelming number of us felt similar to how I first did when I got here.....When I first walked into the hangar at Bridgeway and saw the polished floors and the guy taking the "waterspots off the wings 'cause the owners don't like to see waterspots", I thought I'd found my "professional home".....and I did.....That was reinforced by the fact that customer service was a short distance behind safety. We had, what was it?, a full day on customer service during training and more customer service training during recurrent?
My point is this. The focus of NJA has changed and changed dramatically. No longer is "customer service" given as a class any more. No longer is it even mentioned in recurrent anymore since what's-his-name left a couple of years ago. The airplanes certainly do not look as good as they did a couple of years ago though I admit there has been some addressing of that issue.
When on tour up to a couple of years ago there was time to maybe sit down and have a hot meal somewhere or get a work out in a couple of times a tour which made the crews fresher and more able to take some of the longer days AND provide better customer service. Now it's 12+/- hours every day not so much to add to productivity it seems as it is to show some "crew utilization" statistics.
I could go on and on with what I perceive as negative changes here and changes that affect the "fit" from what was here before. There's even a joke out on the line that was NOT applicable a couple of years ago about "safety being #1 at Net Jets unless it intereferes with scheduling".......I could relate pages of examples of this but my point is that the culture has has changed, and not for the better for the employees nor for the owners satisfaction.
BB's philosophy of "doing more with less" is a good sound bite, but doesn't always translate well into a "frontline service" business.....and make no mistake about it, NJA doesn't sell airplanes or "fractional ownership" or anything else BUT SERVICE. That point was highly emphasized by the "service excellence" guy whom I mentioned......I have often wondered why his position was replaced and why service is no longer mentioned to the front line providers of that service.
Family Guy--
In regards to wages.....
OK...#1...why are you applying the inflation rate for only the last 4 years? The wages of the current contract were agreed to in 1998? So why isn't the inflation applied to 1998 to the present and beyond instead of just the last four years?
To apply the inlfation rate of just the last four years ignores the devaluation of the wage dollar during the life of the 1998 contract. So, to add your figure of 9% to adjust for the inflation of 2001-2005, you've done nothing to address that devaluation of 1998-2001.
As in my original post, a COLA application has to be applied to the life of the contract, too, or else the actual buying power of those dollars decreases over the life of the contract.
In essense, NJA has been paying 1998 wages through 2005.....That's a pretty good deal that any company would LOVE and has been the incentive to drag these negotiations out this long. Management even admitted that it dragged out the negotiations.....that's no news flash. They've saved bazillions over the last fours years by paying 1998 wages.....
So, in rough numbers to SIMPLY ADJUST FOR INLFATION WITHOUT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT NJA'S ALREADY LOW BALL PAY, you have to go back to my original post that puts the current $61,000 a year at about $77,000 a year using a modest 3% rate over 8 years......(NJA uses 3.75% for owner increases in management fees) .....now add a COLA adjustment of 3% a year for 4 years of a contract and we're well over $80K just for inflation!
If we use NJA'S 3.75%, those numbers go even higher.....and wasn't that 3.75% touted as necessary to "pay for the pilot's raises"? No doubt that it was.
In regards to wages.....
OK...#1...why are you applying the inflation rate for only the last 4 years? The wages of the current contract were agreed to in 1998? So why isn't the inflation applied to 1998 to the present and beyond instead of just the last four years?
To apply the inlfation rate of just the last four years ignores the devaluation of the wage dollar during the life of the 1998 contract. So, to add your figure of 9% to adjust for the inflation of 2001-2005, you've done nothing to address that devaluation of 1998-2001.
As in my original post, a COLA application has to be applied to the life of the contract, too, or else the actual buying power of those dollars decreases over the life of the contract.
In essense, NJA has been paying 1998 wages through 2005.....That's a pretty good deal that any company would LOVE and has been the incentive to drag these negotiations out this long. Management even admitted that it dragged out the negotiations.....that's no news flash. They've saved bazillions over the last fours years by paying 1998 wages.....
So, in rough numbers to SIMPLY ADJUST FOR INLFATION WITHOUT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT NJA'S ALREADY LOW BALL PAY, you have to go back to my original post that puts the current $61,000 a year at about $77,000 a year using a modest 3% rate over 8 years......(NJA uses 3.75% for owner increases in management fees) .....now add a COLA adjustment of 3% a year for 4 years of a contract and we're well over $80K just for inflation!
If we use NJA'S 3.75%, those numbers go even higher.....and wasn't that 3.75% touted as necessary to "pay for the pilot's raises"? No doubt that it was.
Pilot surpluses....
Agreed.....there is a surplus in the industry "out there".......Few of them are coming "here" so there IS a shortage as far as NJA is concerned if NJA cannot induce them to wlk through the door.......A resource is only "surplus" if more than enough of it is available to the party in need.
Are NJA pilots telling others not to come here? Yes! Are the pilots who are asking about NJA robots who can't make their own decisions once they see the pay scales, the possible upgrade times off of FO pay, the working conditions, the state of labor relations, etc? NO. These are professional pilots who KNOW the industry and what they want and do not want in an employment situation. These aren't kids all wild-eyed about flying jets.....These are EDUCATED AND INFORMED PROFESSIONALS FULLY CAPABLE OF MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS. Once they see the state of things here through their own investigations
Please, Family Guy, give them at least a LITTLE credit for being adult enough to make their own decisions. Some retired or furloughed DAL pilot is pretty sharp and certainly sharp enough to make his/her own decision. hey can do reserach on their own and talk with the recruiters here......
I have personally written two letters of recommendation for pilots wanting to apply here in the last 6 months.....The first one was accepted and later declined the class after making his OWN decision......Hey, I even HELPED him with getting in and he STILL turned it down. #2 is pending upon completion of another employment obligation.
Agreed.....there is a surplus in the industry "out there".......Few of them are coming "here" so there IS a shortage as far as NJA is concerned if NJA cannot induce them to wlk through the door.......A resource is only "surplus" if more than enough of it is available to the party in need.
Are NJA pilots telling others not to come here? Yes! Are the pilots who are asking about NJA robots who can't make their own decisions once they see the pay scales, the possible upgrade times off of FO pay, the working conditions, the state of labor relations, etc? NO. These are professional pilots who KNOW the industry and what they want and do not want in an employment situation. These aren't kids all wild-eyed about flying jets.....These are EDUCATED AND INFORMED PROFESSIONALS FULLY CAPABLE OF MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS. Once they see the state of things here through their own investigations
Please, Family Guy, give them at least a LITTLE credit for being adult enough to make their own decisions. Some retired or furloughed DAL pilot is pretty sharp and certainly sharp enough to make his/her own decision. hey can do reserach on their own and talk with the recruiters here......
I have personally written two letters of recommendation for pilots wanting to apply here in the last 6 months.....The first one was accepted and later declined the class after making his OWN decision......Hey, I even HELPED him with getting in and he STILL turned it down. #2 is pending upon completion of another employment obligation.
Family Guy--
"Yeah...they are called extortion, blackmail, arm-twisting, etc....
How else would you characterize people that deliberately under-perform, sabotage, and undermine the company's performance and publicly state that things will return to normal when our demands are met?"
The first couple of these are illegal and no doubt the lawyers would be all over them in court if, indeed, they were being carried out by any member of the union.
Arm twisting? Please, Family Guy, you and I can go on and on and on and on about "tit-for-tat" tactics in this process......don't sit there and pretend that hiring a law firm SPECIFICALLY for it's union busting expertise doesn't involved "arm-twisting" and tactics paralell to ones that you accuse us of. CONFESSIONS OF A UNION BUSTER outlines the tactics that BB and his staff have been playing....it's all right out of the book.....so please, don't play the "we're lilly white" in this process......
This process is INHERENTLY nasty. The provisions of the RLA make so. Personally, I DESPISE this process but it's the one we're stuck with.
"Yeah...they are called extortion, blackmail, arm-twisting, etc....
How else would you characterize people that deliberately under-perform, sabotage, and undermine the company's performance and publicly state that things will return to normal when our demands are met?"
The first couple of these are illegal and no doubt the lawyers would be all over them in court if, indeed, they were being carried out by any member of the union.
Arm twisting? Please, Family Guy, you and I can go on and on and on and on about "tit-for-tat" tactics in this process......don't sit there and pretend that hiring a law firm SPECIFICALLY for it's union busting expertise doesn't involved "arm-twisting" and tactics paralell to ones that you accuse us of. CONFESSIONS OF A UNION BUSTER outlines the tactics that BB and his staff have been playing....it's all right out of the book.....so please, don't play the "we're lilly white" in this process......
This process is INHERENTLY nasty. The provisions of the RLA make so. Personally, I DESPISE this process but it's the one we're stuck with.
FAMILY GUY--
"Since I dont work in the pilot ops side, its hard for me to comment on contract violations when I dont have the details. Can you share them? What were the violations and what were the awards?
Absent the details, it sounds like the process is working and people are being held accountable if a contract provision is violated.
Now, are you going to support the company firing people that sabotage the operation or are you going to support using your dues to defend them and their behavior?"
The contract violations are som many and so rampant that it would be impossible for me to outline them for you as they reflect, as I said, something over $12 million thus far this year with LOADS more to come. The include violations of show times after vacations, violations of the number of two-day turns in a month, violations of show times after two-day turns, violations of "crew rot" provisions in the LOA, violations of after-midnight returns, and MANY more.......
Yes, they are being rectified but NOT the system that induces them......they continue and continue and continue......Is anyone at CMH being held accountable for these losses? I don't know?
Am I going to support the company in firing people who sabotage the operation? Thus far, the company hasn't fired anyone for those actions, so I assume that they haven't found anyone doing that for I am certain that if they had, they WOULD have fired them.....that's all part of the game too....see the book I referred you to in the section on "hostage taking".......
In general the pilots are fulfilling their duties under the contract, company policies and FAR's......if not, no doubt the company would be firing left and right. They aren't and that is evidence that the group is fulfilling it's obligations. They may be doing it to the extent needed to make this place work, but, hey, 4 years is a long time to wait.....
By the way, the failed TA was a failure....it was a pay cut for most of us and most of us chose to work under the current TA as it is better than that pile of junk. It wasn't "sabotaged" by the current union.....again, please give me and my brethren SOME credit for being able to think on our own. We ARE the union and WE voted it down for VERY good reasons.
"Since I dont work in the pilot ops side, its hard for me to comment on contract violations when I dont have the details. Can you share them? What were the violations and what were the awards?
Absent the details, it sounds like the process is working and people are being held accountable if a contract provision is violated.
Now, are you going to support the company firing people that sabotage the operation or are you going to support using your dues to defend them and their behavior?"
The contract violations are som many and so rampant that it would be impossible for me to outline them for you as they reflect, as I said, something over $12 million thus far this year with LOADS more to come. The include violations of show times after vacations, violations of the number of two-day turns in a month, violations of show times after two-day turns, violations of "crew rot" provisions in the LOA, violations of after-midnight returns, and MANY more.......
Yes, they are being rectified but NOT the system that induces them......they continue and continue and continue......Is anyone at CMH being held accountable for these losses? I don't know?
Am I going to support the company in firing people who sabotage the operation? Thus far, the company hasn't fired anyone for those actions, so I assume that they haven't found anyone doing that for I am certain that if they had, they WOULD have fired them.....that's all part of the game too....see the book I referred you to in the section on "hostage taking".......
In general the pilots are fulfilling their duties under the contract, company policies and FAR's......if not, no doubt the company would be firing left and right. They aren't and that is evidence that the group is fulfilling it's obligations. They may be doing it to the extent needed to make this place work, but, hey, 4 years is a long time to wait.....
By the way, the failed TA was a failure....it was a pay cut for most of us and most of us chose to work under the current TA as it is better than that pile of junk. It wasn't "sabotaged" by the current union.....again, please give me and my brethren SOME credit for being able to think on our own. We ARE the union and WE voted it down for VERY good reasons.
Semore Butts
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2002
- Posts
- 670
abenaki said:
Have you read this book? It is such a nothing book - it is more about the author's alcoholism than anything else. The book was obviously part of the authors 12 steps.
Union rumors have been flying about the "professional union busters" that NJa has hired....lawyers, bridgeway bob, etc. This term has been overused on this board and elsewhere. Borderline ridiculous at this point, imho.
Of course, the union has hired lawyers, the guy from united airlines, etc. Should we call them "professional management busters"?
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