Negative Outlook for American - Could IMPLODE!

[AA717driver]

Weren't you the one saying AA's great credit rating could THWART a bid by Delta or others for United's Pacific routes if they offered to sell them? Riiiight, keep thinking that....JMO.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Considering how much TWA/Icahn's bidding drove up the price of PanAm's Europe routes for Delta back in the 90's, I'd have to say...uh, yeah.

Keep on ignoring history. It'll make you feel better...for awhile. TC

 

[General Lee]

Considering how much TWA/Icahn's bidding drove up the price of PanAm's Europe routes for Delta back in the 90's, I'd have to say...uh, yeah.

Keep on ignoring history. It'll make you feel better...for awhile. TC

So we'll call your bluff, let you buy it for $billions, and we'll merge with NWA and watch you go BK as we compete against you anyway. Sounds fun. History doesn't always repeat itself. Yeah, if it makes you sleep at night, keep thinking that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[G4G5]

So we'll call your bluff, let you buy it for $billions, and we'll merge with NWA and watch you go BK as we compete against you anyway. Sounds fun. History doesn't always repeat itself. Yeah, if it makes you sleep at night, keep thinking that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah, because merger work out so well, just ask any of the ex-Pan Am folks left on the real estate, how wel the National Merger went? Or any of the NWA folks that you plan on merging with how well the green list, red list and blue list worked out.

DAL's screwing of the Pan Am pilots is the EXACT model that the APA used when they stuck it to the TWA folks (tried and tested in court).

Yep, mergers are great (ask the USAir pilots how they feel). A DAL/NWA merger would be a walk in the park with both pilot groups singing Kum By Ya around the camp fire. I have one thing for you to consider, look up how long the Republic guys were fenced off the NWA equipment. You don't have enough flying time left in your career to ever see an NWA 747.

The recovery rate and return to profitability occurs exponentialy quicker with a direct asset purchase then it does when you try to merge, pilots, mechanics, ground personal, FA's, fleet types, yada yada.

I'd sooner pay the billions any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Spooky 2]

Yeah, because merger work out so well, just ask any of the ex-Pan Am folks left on the real estate, how wel the National Merger went? Or any of the NWA folks that you plan on merging with how well the green list, red list and blue list worked out.

DAL's screwing of the Pan Am pilots is the EXACT model that the APA used when they stuck it to the TWA folks (tried and tested in court).

Yep, mergers are great (ask the USAir pilots how they feel). A DAL/NWA merger would be a walk in the park with both pilot groups singing Kum By Ya around the camp fire. I have one thing for you to consider, look up how long the Republic guys were fenced off the NWA equipment. You don't have enough flying time left in your career to ever see an NWA 747.

The recovery rate and return to profitability occurs exponentialy quicker with a direct asset purchase then it does when you try to merge, pilots, mechanics, ground personal, FA's, fleet types, yada yada.

I'd sooner pay the billions any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

G4G5 I'm not so sure you have all your facts straight regarding the PAA/DAL acquisition. I do think that most PAA pilots got the short end of the stick, but I do not think it mirrors the AA/TWA debacle. I was very senior on the DAL list and twelve PAA guys with DOH well behind mine wound up senior to me. All of these were pilots out of the PAA Dirty Thirty list. No big deal but it was not an exact AA/TWA model. The guys who really got fk'd over were the guys on the A300 or the B747 who were not even invited to come over. That did amaze me. I worked for PAA back in the mid sixties for a year or so before I realized that being a navigator was not way to see the world but then that's another story.

 

[aa73]

G4G5, I agree that mergers suck. But as spooky said, big differences bewteen AA/TWA and DL/PAA. DL only picked up the Atlantic assets and the corresponding aircraft/pilots, and incorporated those pilots accordingly. Whereas AA bought ALL the TWA assets and promised "fair and equitable" - and then proceeded to craft an integration AFTER the passage of 9/11 that forced out mostly TWA pilots/FAs. While it comes as no surprise that the acquiring carrier's union protected its own employees (as expected), the company should not have promised "fair and equitable" with that knowledge.

They were both screw jobs, but I'd venture to say that TWA folks got a much bigger screw job.

73

 

[AA717driver]

Yeah but the biggest screw job was how much Delta paid for the PAA N. Atl. routes--about a month before Europe deregulated and EVERYONE could fly there!

(Sorry, not entirely factually correct but it was creeping me out hearing AA guys talk about how TWA guys got screwed. I had to take drastic measures! ) TC

 

[aa73]

(Sorry, not entirely factually correct but it was creeping me out hearing AA guys talk about how TWA guys got screwed. I had to take drastic measures! ) TC

TC,

Give every "Native" a chance to fly out of STL and they eventually come out a couple years later "institutionalized." :blush:

P.s. I had this opinion long before I came to "Central America."

cheers, 73

 

[G4G5]

G4G5 I'm not so sure you have all your facts straight regarding the PAA/DAL acquisition. I do think that most PAA pilots got the short end of the stick, but I do not think it mirrors the AA/TWA debacle. I was very senior on the DAL list and twelve PAA guys with DOH well behind mine wound up senior to me. All of these were pilots out of the PAA Dirty Thirty list. No big deal but it was not an exact AA/TWA model. The guys who really got fk'd over were the guys on the A300 or the B747 who were not even invited to come over. That did amaze me. I worked for PAA back in the mid sixties for a year or so before I realized that being a navigator was not way to see the world but then that's another story.

Hi Spooky,

Nope, I am pretty sure that I have it right. My old man was a Pan Am A310 pilot who transfered over to DAL with the Atlantic routes.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=999359


"The starting point for the integration was the position held by the most senior Delta pilot of whatever aircraft was deemed to be most nearly equivalent to the A-310. Delta deemed its Boeing 767ER ("B-767ER") to be most equivalent to the A-310 because both were long-haul twin-engine aircraft, although the B-767ER was not cleared for over-ocean voyages. Delta's most senior B-767ER pilot occupied spot #590. Thereafter, the methodology separately integrated the Pan Am captains, first officers and flight engineers, according to a ratio based on the number of comparable positions expected to exist at Delta, in the absence of the APA, as of the end of 1992.2 Thus, the formula called for dividing the number of Delta captain positions (at B-767ER captain level and below) anticipated to exist as of the end of 1992 - that is, 3,360 - by the number of Pan Am captains eventually hired by Delta - 286. This resulted in a ratio of approximately twelve to one. Thus, one Pan Am captain was integrated after every twelve spots beneath #590 - at #603, #616, #629, #641 and so on. After all the Pan Am captains had been integrated, the Delta first officers and flight engineers were then ratioed with their acquired Pan Am counterparts, resulting in one Pan Am position being created after each ten or eleven Delta positions throughout the remainder of the seniority list.
While the modified status ratio methodology gave the acquired Pan Am pilots enhanced bidding seniority vis-a-vis new hires, it also resulted in placing many former Pan Am pilots in spots below Delta pilots with less cockpit experience. Thus, once they moved over to Delta, several Pan Am pilots were relegated to cockpit positions, aircraft, and routes less desirable than those they had flown at Pan Am. For example, some 55-year-old Pan Am pilots found themselves flying in positions junior to 35-year-old pilots who had been with Delta their entire career. However, the Pan Am pilots were integrated in seniority order - that is, within the integrated seniority list, and thus, Pan Am pilots maintained their seniority relative to other Pan Am pilots."

Pan Am pilots were fenced off the L1011's and the 767's. They were never allowed to fly them, even though Pan Am had 747's. Because DAL was not taking any 747's and by weight the A310 was a smaller aircraft then the 767. Subsequently the Pan Am pilots seniority started below the 767 captains. Once the fence came down my old mans 1965 DOH equated to a 1977 DAL DOH, at which point, he could no longer hold the Atlantic routes that he came over with.

This is where the APA devised the A300 and 777 fence for the TWA pilots, "you didn't bring any over so you don't get to fly them, who cares if you guys still have 747's and L1011's on your certificate". The APA didn't think up the TWA screwing all on their own, they were smart enough to go through ALPA merger history and borrow the screwing that worked the best for them.

This is where the APA came up with the seniority intergration ratio, taken directly from the one used by DAL with the Pan Am pilots. Why, because as you can see from the link above, the DAL pilots were able to win the case in court. So, the APA knew going in that if they modeled their intergration after the ALPA/ALPA, DAL/Pan Am, intergration metholdolgy, they had proven case history on their side and the TWA pilots wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Which as time as shown has proven to be the case.

 

[G4G5]

Spooky,

I do give you Kudo's for even knowing who the "Dirty 30" are. Most pilots have never even heard of the 30 biggest scum bags to put on a uniform. Yes they were placed ahead of most of the Pan Am pilots on the merger list, which placed them above many senior Delta pilots.

Forgive me if I don't have the facts 100% but it's late. The Dirty 30 were a group of Pan Am ALPA MEC members who got wind of the DAL merger. They were in charge of the defending the Pan Am pilots during the intergration process.

Once they got wind of what DAL wanted(only the Shuttle 727's and the A310's) they locked the seniority list and would not let anyone bid off of their current equipment. They voted to except the terms of the DAL ALPA MEC, WITHOUT telling the membership that Delta was no going to take the 747's or any of the senior pilots

They became know as the dirtly thirty because they were the ONLY pilots allowed to bid and train onto the 727 (Shuttle) and the A310. They did this OUT OF SENIORITY! Leaving behind HUNDREDS of SENIOR pilots who wanted to do the same thing. In essence they F'ed over everyone on the seniority list.

What ticks me off is that today, they collect a Delta Pilot pension. The DAL pilots and their MEC were fully aware of this and let it happen. They were too busy salivating over the screwing over the carcus to condem the 30 pilots who served it up to them on an plate.

 

[G4G5]

G4G5, I agree that mergers suck. But as spooky said, big differences bewteen AA/TWA and DL/PAA. DL only picked up the Atlantic assets and the corresponding aircraft/pilots, and incorporated those pilots accordingly. Whereas AA bought ALL the TWA assets and promised "fair and equitable" - and then proceeded to craft an integration AFTER the passage of 9/11 that forced out mostly TWA pilots/FAs. While it comes as no surprise that the acquiring carrier's union protected its own employees (as expected), the company should not have promised "fair and equitable" with that knowledge.

They were both screw jobs, but I'd venture to say that TWA folks got a much bigger screw job.

73

Do you honestly think that the APA was smart enought to come up with the TWA intergration on their own? Or could it be that they were advised by their lawyers to use the very same metholds That Delta had used on Pan Am just 10 years prior?

Look off's for larger equipment, seniority intergration based upon the equipment brought over, pilot base lock in. These were all things devised by the Delta pilots, tried and tested in court and had worked in an APLA/ALPA seniority list intergration.

Don't lose touch with the facts, TWA was an asset purchase, just like Pan Am was. That's why the APA knew that their intergration would work.

Care to guess where Sup C came from? I'll give you a hint. Pan AM a310 pilots were locked into the JFK base ONLY and could not bid out. If they chose to bid ATL 727 or LAX 727 or any other bid status, they lost they relative Pan AM seniority and had to use their new Delta Seniority. Delta pilots were locked off of JFK A310, which didn't matter because DAL had no intension of keeping the A310's (they were gone with in 3 years) and were replaced with the 767's.

Or did you think that the APA came up with Sup C all on their own?