NDB Approaches / Holds on Mesaba interview?

[Workin'Stiff]

I love it how the topic of the thread to start is NDB approaches in the eval and now it's all "no pay / newbies for ground instructors..." That's flightinfo for ya...

 

[sf3boy]

Yes, back on topic. Know basic IFR procedures if you want to fly for Mesaba. We fly in crap weather to crap towns in crap aircraft full of passengers that crap in their pants on the plane. Please know how to fly before applying. THAT GOES FOR INSTRUCTORS, TOO!!

 

[Towelie]

Exactamundo.

Even the head training dept guys at XJ told us in my last class that they were looking to hire all outside intructors that have zero experience because they are willing to do it for way cheap.

Remember, at XJ, $afety first.

I personally know all the training managers and I can guarantee you that they are not looking to hire instructors with "zero experience." Just because someone hasn't flown the line doesn't mean they have "zero experience." You should know better than that.

Ask the Saab APD's how the quality of orals have been the last few months. They will tell you they have been the best in a long time. Better then when ex-XJ, furloughed NWA guys taught the class by a long shot. Or before 9/11 when we had an F/O teaching who was an idiot who spent more time playing stupid audio clips then teaching class. But he was "qualified."

After covering the fuel system in the Saab in less than 20 minutes one day, I asked if we were to talk about the negative g canister, hopper tanks, fuel transfer, anything that is more than the limitations in Chapter 1.......the answer was I don't think so??? Meanwhile the new hires are frantically flipping through the Saab System book looking up these new terms.

Did you ever think that maybe they don't go as deep because you don't have to know all the minutia you were force fed as a new hire? Most of us had to learn crap that we never should have had to learn. We are not trying to build the airplane.

It is, for sure, about cost for the airline why we don't have "qualified" people teaching ground schools. I would do it if they paid me, but they won't, so I won't. It is a vicious cycle.

I'm sure with your attitude the training dept. would love to have you. What makes you say someone isn't qualified to teach just because they haven't flown the line like you have? They are teaching systems, not sim. They tell you how stuff works, not how to fly it. I upgraded within the last 6 months and I thought the ground instructors did a great job. They didn't know it all but at least they found the answers.

I love how people criticize and say that the training department only cares about the money. Have you ever sat down and talked to our training managers?

Pretty easy to sit there and cast stones without all the facts, my boy.

 

[jackbo]

Please know how to fly before applying. THAT GOES FOR INSTRUCTORS, TOO!!

wow. you are cool. are you god? sounds like you know it all.

how many of the ground instructors teach in the sim? guess that's why they need to know how to fly.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yes you need to still know how to fly an NDB for the interview and during sim training even in the Avro. Maybe that wouldn't be the case if NW had sprung for the FMS that wasn't pulled out of mothballs from the stone age so we could have flown RNAV approaches instead. But then you'd have to learn how to do all that programming instead of setting one freq and following a needle. Now on the line...I don't think the Avro goes anywhere that doesn't have an ILS except Aspen and that needs special training to fly to. It's no big deal in the Avro though with the nifty drift diamond there is no thinking about wind correction.

 

[MVSW]

A NDB approach is the biggest POS!! I am so happy they are going away.

 

[MVSW]

Some Majors arent even allowed to fly NDP approaches, or do NDB holds anymore...but yes true that is a part of basic instrument flying

No its not basic instrument flying. It might have been 5 years ago. Times are changing. I think that XJET doesnt even have an ADF in any RJ.

 

[sf3boy]

Was I exaggerating some? Of course I was, but my point is that those instructors are there because they are cheaper than what it would take to pay a pilot instructor. Come to think of it, I am not sure if in recent years XJ has had a line pilot teaching systems.

As far as the good job on orals.....it could be that all the upgrades have around 4000 hours in the airplane and have done 4-7 PC's.

I'll ease off a little as I did come across very harsh.

 

[AvroJockey]

You people can't do a NDB hold?

What's wrong with you? You don't deserve to fly that jet if you can't.

Ask any mainline guy this. They probably haven't done one in decades, let alone be allowed to do one. I believe most majors are only allowed to do ILS and RNAV approaches.

BTW, The only reason XJ would be checking this is to see if you definitly have skills. I can't remember the last time I did an NDB for real, or in on a PC/RFT/Type ride. Our last couple of Jepp revisions have a lot of NDB approach deletions.

 

[AvroJockey]

Just dont make it obvious that you have the ILS frq on your Nav radio

Actually, if you don't use the LOC in this hold, it would be construed by the evaluator as poor judgment, poor use of available resources. If the evaluator wants to see a pure NDB hold they’ll put you over a NDB and not a LOM, or fail the locilizer.

What would you do in real life? You wouldn't be whipping out your instrument flying handbook because haven't done a NDB hold in 10 years, you would be tuning in that LOC in short order.

 

[AvroJockey]

Was I exaggerating some? Of course I was, but my point is that those instructors are there because they are cheaper than what it would take to pay a pilot instructor.

They're cheaper for now, however, after 2 years they get a seniority number and are given a choice to go to the line or stay in the training dept. If they stay a FTI, they get 100hrs of Captain pay in whatever they're teaching. Not so cheap, but by that time I'm sure they know the airplane better than any line pilot. There is a place for line experience, but it's more in the sim than during ground.

Believe me, I had the same conserns that you did, until I when in the training dept. The green guys are GREEN, and those with a couple of months teach are very good. The chick everyone was bitching about a few months back is the same girl everyone is requesting now.

The good thing is that at least they are qualified pilots, unlike some institutions that let ramp agents teach thier ground schools.

Come to think of it, I am not sure if in recent years XJ has had a line pilot teaching systems.

Mike Bierscheid is a qualified line guy that only does ground instruction; one of best instructors I've ever had.

 

[Napoleon TNT]

Sounds like the 'boy' is the type that finds something to complain about in any environment.

If if sucks so bad, why stick around? Don't give any BS about "I have too much invested..." that the candy way out.

Why make everyone else's sunny skies dark? Why brings others down with your gloom?

Even the head training dept guys at XJ told us in my last class that they were looking to hire all outside intructors that have zero experience because they are willing to do it for way cheap.

Remember, at XJ, $afety first.

OK, so 'boy', making decisions based solely on money is an evil thing that ONLY management will do? Right?

I would do it if they paid me, but they won't, so I won't.

I stand corrected.

Just let complainers keep on complaining,with other complainers, and they will complain their way out of a complaining contest...and complain about it.

Now THAT is a vicious cycle.

 

[wmudriver]

This true? If so, have to hit the sim ASAP.

Be up on your IFR procedures before you interview, it will be obvious if your're not.

If you get hired, the best thing that you could do is be up to snuff on your IFR flying skills. It will make your training so much easier. The instructors won't take much time to teach you that kind of stuff, they will assume you know how to already. That way you can concentrate on all of the procedures, callouts and profiles. Good luck.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

UPDATE: the very first approach on my checkride was the full NDB 31 at RST. Too bad the update that deletes this thing doesn't take effect til the 29th.
KNOW HOW TO FLY AN NDB

 

[othello]

I just fliped through my daily logg Oct 04 - yesterday. I am DTW SF-340 FO at Mesaba and flew 12 NDB approaches in the last 10 month while flying the line, 4 where in one week at up at CIU it is the only approach when the wind is out of the north or when the LOC is out of service. Avr over 1 a month

So to answer any questions yes you had better be comfortable flying NDB holds and approaches. Not just for the sake of the interview.

 

[MVSW]

I just fliped through my daily logg Oct 04 - yesterday. I am DTW SF-340 FO at Mesaba and flew 12 NDB approaches in the last 10 month while flying the line, 4 where in one week at up at CIU it is the only approach when the wind is out of the north or when the LOC is out of service. Avr over 1 a month

So to answer any questions yes you had better be comfortable flying NDB holds and approaches. Not just for the sake of the interview.

Must suck to fly NDB's. LOL

 

[desnapper]

I agree Othello. Until they are all gone, or we are no longer authorized, the NDB approach for XJ is more than an interview obstacle. For all you CFI's out there, do yourself and your students a favor and shoot a few NDB approaches to minimums.

 

[saab pilot]

When I was hired back in 1999, Mesaba didn't even ask about NDB's, nor did they wanted to see it done in the sim. Before I left Mesaba, we couldn't do the NDB in either CIU or MQT. Can't remember which city. I think it was CIU. Is that still unauthorized? Is Scott Keoppl still there?

 

[Monster Buck]

Scott is still here, and the NDB in CIU was back on after a couple of months that is was off due to accuracy problems. Still just as inaccurate but authorized. Just fyi, if you tune in the loc for 16 when shooting ndb 34 and use it for EXTRA info. it makes the ndb appr. much more accurate. DEAD on for 34 as a matter of fact.

 

[BoDEAN]

I noticed quite a few NDB approaches being pulled from our last Jepps revision as well. Still doing them in the sim for PCs and RFTs however.

MM

Noticed that too. KAZO got rid of the NDB