Nationwide Walkout!!!!

[Ty Webb]

Not to mention that if a national walkout ever happenned, a judge would not be hard pressed to deem that walkout illegal and also a violation of anti-trust laws. Its been done before with NLRB unions in the past. God help the RLA union that does it!

This was already thoroughly covered, about three pages back. What people are talking about is a grass-roots "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore" action. Not-a-union-sanctioned-event.

Do I need to spell it out for you letter by letter? Sheesh.

 

[Ty Webb]

A rise in pilot wages does not necessarily drive an increase in ticket prices. A forced rise in pilot wages may compel management to find new efficiencies in other areas.

Absolutely correct. Just trying to keep it simple.

If every airline was forced to pay pilots at least a national minimum pay scale, then each airline would be similarly impacted. No airline would suddenly become a bargain alternative simply because of a national, univeral pay scale. . . . I don't think any of us know to what degree and at what price points consumers today would opt to use these modes of transportation if air travel became more expensive. This is an issue that needs to be studied.

Also correct.

A National Seniority List would have some drawbacks. No denying that. But our current system is rife with drawbacks that have left us with virtually no leverage and no power to stop the erosion.

You also must be creative. For example, to address your concerns about list integration, there are a thousand ways to do it. None of them would be perfect. . . . . . And...remember, the aim is not to create a perfect world but a better world than we have today.

Ding! DIng! Ding! We have a winner.

Sorry about hacking up your post.

 

[philo beddoe]

Not to attack your idea at all, but date of ATP is probably not a great idea.
Perhaps use the date where one first came off probation at a 121 union carrier? Perhaps seniority could be started at the end of the apprentice year at your first 121 union job, and "years in service" would accrue as long as one remained at a 121 union carrier.

If you quit to fly corporate, it stops your accrual until you start again at a 121 union carrier. If you are furloughed, you continue to acquire years in service unless you resign your position (for ex. if you go to work for a part 91 job that demands you resign your furlough recall rights). Your years in service are banked forever. You never lose any, it just simply suspends accrual until you take another 121 position. This prevents you from having to make a hard choice as a furloughee. Your new company can demand that you resign your callback rights, but as long as you could get hired again, you would not lose seniority.

In my opinion, this maximizes credit for those who have put in years of work for 121. The date of ATP method could unfairly penalize a long time FO at Eagle in favor of a lower time pilot at a fast upgrade carrier. The ATP should matter less than the number of months paying union dues at a real 121 carrier.

To summarize, this could create a de facto national list. However, your position on the list could change if you leave the 121 (union) world to fly corporate for a while. You remain suspended in time, so to speak, while others who are stying in the profession accrue more years in service. If you leave involuntarily (furlough, shutdown), you continue to accrue years in service. This prevents "bad luck" from changing your position on the list. However, deliberately leaving the list, and thusly your union profession, suspends you in time until you return.

Notice my careful use of the word union. Maybe, just maybe, if this type of system was in place, it would offer so much long term potential and security that it could cause non-union carriers to unionize. They would realize that if their company ever shut down, they would go to the bottom of someone's list and have no seniority "portability".

How would military pilots be handled? I don't know. Perhaps consider them "in" starting one year after the date of their first assignment as a fully qualified crewmember. This would mimic the civilian side of the system. After leaving military service, the years in service accrual stops unless they become employed by a 121 union carrier.

I realize that this will never happen, but I am interested in others opinions on the upsides and downsides of this idea.

philo

 

[tired_pilot]

dont count the regional guys out

We're talking about the majors here overall. Its insane flying a mainline jet as capt and making under 100K +-. Whats sad and shouldnt be tolerated in this country is whats going on at some regionals. The majority of the public doesnt know how bad the regional pilots are exploited. 16 hour duty days 6 on 1 off etc etc. I did a permenant "One day" walk out from Mesa a couple years ago after one of those 6 on 1 off weeks, I got home to find my paycheck of $475 for two weeks for flying the Dash 8. I think theres enough guys at the regionals who arent 21 years old with silver spoons who would jump at the chance to help this industry and themselves if they could.

 

[pilotyip]

There will be foreign and non-union national airlines to content with; it has always been that way and will most likely be that way in the future. When all you guys get together and raise the prices, it will open a new window for a new low cost airline like the old Spirit, AirTran, AWA etc. What is wrong with $100K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a high school grad?

 

[SirFlyALot]

phil beddoe: THANK YOU! Your post is exactly the kind of creativity and imagination we need to have as pilots. I think there is a lot of merit to your ideas. Furlough Fodder also had some great ideas earlier in the thread. Seriously, this is the kind of creative thinking that we absolutely must have if we are going to advance beyond our current state.

There will be foreign and non-union national airlines to content with; it has always been that way and will most likely be that way in the future. When all you guys get together and raise the prices, it will open a new window for a new low cost airline like the old Spirit, AirTran, AWA etc.

The issue you raise here is the problem of scabs. It is a very serious issue. Without a doubt, if a national union was created, an attempt would eventually be made to subvert it with scabs. If the authority of a national union is circumvented by 1) management creating a non-union pilot group, 2) a pilot group creating their own independent union, 3) management bringing in replacement workers during a union action, or 4) management outsourcing flying to a foreign carrier or foreign pilots, then a national union will be rendered impotent.

Once again, creativity, vision, research, and thought will be required to devise methods for handling the scab problem. Scabs, in whatever form they take, must not be allowed to be successful. We must vigorously go after scabs to the limits of the law. We must make their lives as miserable as the law allows. The repercussions for scabbing must be so severe and so persistent that the price of scabbing is just not worth it. Those who do scab must be made examples of (legally). I'm sure there are many ways to go about this.

What is wrong with $100K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a high school grad?

I don't know what to make of this statement. I honestly am not sure what point you're trying to make. For one thing, flying for a major 121 carrier generally requires a college degree. I guess you disagree witht that requirement.

Let me ask you these questions:
What is wrong with $80K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
What is wrong with $60K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
What is wrong with $40K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
What is wrong with $20K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
How do you answer those pilotyip? Where do you draw the line?

 

[Mr Hat]

I don't know what to make of this statement. I honestly am not sure what point you're trying to make. For one thing, flying for a major 121 carrier generally requires a college degree. I guess you disagree witht that requirement.

Bollocks. There are plenty of us out there who have been flying the 121 system for years without a degree and without killing anyone. Flying requires a particular aptitude, personality, training and experience it does not require a college degree. Most of the 121 airlines 'prefer' a degree but hire without one with proper experience. I disagree with your requirement and being that airlines hire without a degree they must disagree with you as well.

Regardless of all that, pay shouldn't be predicated on how many hoops you had to jump through to get to a 121 job, it should reflect the heavy responsibility that pilots have but be reasonable enough that the company can thrive. Thats where airline compensation had been hovering up and down before 9/11....post 9/11 the responsibility part of the equation has been given far less consideration as airline managements panic in crisis. This thing will come to a head sooner or later.

The other thing here is why do we want to start a national union? We have one already. The infastructure is in place. All that needs to be done is to vote people into your MEC who feel the same way you do and get rid of the career ALPA politicians! Cut the fat and bring it back to the pilots.

 

[SirFlyALot]

Mr Hat: Settle down. I said that most major 121 carriers generally require a college degree. For example:
SWA-"Graduation from accredited, four-year college preferred"
Continental-"A Bachelor's degree is highly desired"
JetBlue-"College Degree preferred"
FedEx-"College Degree from an accredited college or university"
Alaska:"Four year degree given preference"
I didn't say that I thought people without a college degree were incapable or lacked the aptitude for piloting or commanding an aircraft. And yes, I realize that there are folks working for major 121 carriers who don't have a college degree. More power to them!
In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there with an elementary school education or less who would make perfectly decent pilots. However, many airlines have decided, for whatever reason, that they like to have their pilots with four-year degrees.
And by the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again: we are not paid based on what we think we are worth, we are paid based on what we negotiate for ourselves.
We should create a new national union because ALPA, as is widely acknowledged, sucks. They have no credibility and to attempt to accomplish anything meaningful on their coattails would be a set-up for failure.

 

[Ty Webb]

Guys- the idea is to be the most inclusive . . . . bring all 121 pilots into the fold. Membership would be open to anyone, all they have to do is pledge to never work for a 121 airline that did not exclusively employ Guild members. Any presently employed or furloughed airline pilot is eligible. The individual airline can screen applicants, but only Guild members.

Initially, you need to bring all the people presently working or furloughed on board, with no restrictions, and then you must grandfather them in. That's the only fair and reasonable way to do it, as I see it. After that, you can create entry requirements that will maintain the standards and wages, but not at the onset.

If you ever go to work for a non-Guild airline . . . you are not eligible for future employment at a Guild airline. That is future and final. Work for Guild wages, at Guild airlines. Each airline has their own CBA, but can't pay less than Guild wages and can't hire non-Guild members,

 

[Freight Dog]

Fellas...

There are some nice ideas being thrown around here. The problem is that they are too radical, and would never happen. Here's what NEEDS to happen:

Concessions - put an end to them. Take chances with the judge in bankruptcy. Should the company seek 1113(c) and judge approve it, that should be grounds for immediate self-help i.e. strike, and screw it.

Until pilots at all airlines, major or regional, realize that this will be a never-ending cycle until they stand up to the management with teeth, it will continue, you will continue to see pay cuts, pensions and benefits lost, work rules gone, etc.

Finally, this really may be the wave of the future. Our managements have managed to Walmartize our airlines. Everyone wants to be a low-cost airline. What's that tell you? How do the rich people fly these days? Fractionals or corporate. If you were a multi-millionaire, would you want to push and shove through the security line next to some smelly NASCAR fans only to have a TSA gorilla tell you to take off your shoes, belt, etc. and then poke you in the a$$ with his metal detector after you set it off? I know I wouldn't. I'd pay premium to fly on my own jet in true luxury i.e. no lines, no TSA, no screaming kids, no NASCAR fans, no nonrevs, and I leave at the time of MY choosing etc.

Just my .02 cents

 

[pilotyip]

sirfly aren't we being a little liberal is the definition of SCAB? As a former ALPA and Teamster member I have always thought a scab is someone who crosses a picket line to fly struck work. If a pilot goes to work for a new airline that is not union, I have ever though about that being a scab. As far a the bottom goes, when you are unemployed at age 53 $4OK per year looks ok, $60K looks great, 20K was too low I could not work for that, so I turned down Atlantic Coast Airlines in 1996, but it turns out I would have made Captain in 4 months. It is part of starting over and many on this board have done the same. Again nothing against the college degree, my feeling it just gets in the way of starting a flying career. BTW great airlines like JB, SWA, CAL,. AirTran do not let the absence of a degree stand in the way of hiring the right pilot.

 

[CUZ]

Fractionals or corporate. If you were a multi-millionaire, would you want to push and shove through the security line next to some smelly NASCAR fans only to have a TSA gorilla tell you to take off your shoes, belt, etc. and then poke you in the a$$ with his metal detector after you set it off? I know I wouldn't. I'd pay premium to fly on my own jet in true luxury i.e. no lines, no TSA, no screaming kids, no NASCAR fans, no nonrevs, and I leave at the time of MY choosing etc. (posted by freight dog)

Dog, dat last paragraph was pretty damn funny. Not trying to millify the point, just thought everyone should no CUZ got quite a giggle.

 

[HalinTexas]

I'm going to take some credit for redirecting this thread. I wanted to see if I can start some discussion outside of the box.

Congratulations, we got it.

My point is the industry and the "systems" within it are flawed and need to be re-examined. The "traditional" airline pilot is gone, thanks to deregulation as well as other factors. Do I want to go back? No. That was a worse situation for everyone, but the owners with clout and those priveleged few pilots that were able to get hired.

New thinking is on the horizon. With automation, we may see single pilot operations with a majority of the systems of flight automated and the "pilot" is there for backup. And to feed the monkey. Laugh now, but it's coming. Engineers, navigators and radio operators are almost all gone now, but they were necessary in times past.

Continue the discussion. Please. Some of it is really good, but all is welcome. Keep thinking outside the box.

 

[Ty Webb]

Great post, and I would agree with you about 95%.

I would say, though, that it certainly is not impossible to make something like this happen, although we may not be there quite yet.

Can you imagine someone saying in early 2001 that Delta, NWA, USAir and United would be bankrupt, and that AirTran and JetBlue would be major airlines?

Never say never. If a nationwide guild doesn't happen, though, there is a fair chance of this career coming to an end for a lot of us.

 

[banned username 1]

Just a time out...

What a great bunch of posts on this thread. This is how this board ought to be most of the time. Bravo.

Great work guys. Enjoy the rest of the weekend!

-78

 

[TurboJetCpt]

What's that old expression about judging others lest ye be judged? AA717Driver has been in this business a lot longer than you or I and since I've flown with him I can vouch for the fact that he is not at all self-serving in his evaluation; he just sees things more clearly than you do.

A national walk-out day? Great idea; that'll show 'em.
-- It's illegal. Expect consequences from the courts.
-- If you haven't noticed our government is anti-union. Expect consequences. (think about what Senator McCain says)
-- The public isn't sympathetic. Times are tough for many sectors of the economy.

In other words, a national walk-out would not have the desired effect. Management is beating the unions today because it's losing so much money. ALPA is effed-up and needs a real leader but even that wouldn't be enough to cure our ills.

I think you misread his response. AA717 was only making a commentary on the current state of ALPO. I am sure he would support the idea IF it was endorsed nationwide but, as all of us current and former ALPO members KNOW, this would NEVER happen due to the immediate cessation of INCOME for that F'ing BALLBAG DUANE WORTHLESS !

 

[Mooseflyer]

A question from someone new to the industry...... I've seen much bashing of ALPA in general and Duane Worth in particular on this board. If he's doing such a bad job, why can't he be voted out? Surely there are annual or periodical elections? Is there someone else in mind for the job? What qualities are we/you looking for?

 

[SirFlyALot]

sirfly aren't we being a little liberal is the definition of SCAB? As a former ALPA and Teamster member I have always thought a scab is someone who crosses a picket line to fly struck work. If a pilot goes to work for a new airline that is not union, I have ever though about that being a scab. As far a the bottom goes, when you are unemployed at age 53 $4OK per year looks ok, $60K looks great, 20K was too low I could not work for that, so I turned down Atlantic Coast Airlines in 1996, but it turns out I would have made Captain in 4 months. It is part of starting over and many on this board have done the same. Again nothing against the college degree, my feeling it just gets in the way of starting a flying career. BTW great airlines like JB, SWA, CAL,. AirTran do not let the absence of a degree stand in the way of hiring the right pilot.

No, I don't think I'm being liberal in my definition of a scab. The only caveat I will add is that the definition would only fit AFTER we transitioned to a national union. I am not blasting the present members of indepedent unions like those that exist at SWA and AirTran or the non-union pilots at JB. Once again, here's my definition of a scab: 1) management creating a non-union pilot group, 2) a pilot group creating their own independent union, 3) management bringing in replacement workers during a union action, or 4) management outsourcing flying to a foreign carrier or foreign pilots. These all fit the definition of scabbing because they would all undermine the power of a national union and ultimately, our ability to support our families and make a living.

Regarding bottom pay, my point is that we have all conditioned ourselves to different thresholds at which a certain level of pay is too low. For you it sounds like it's about $30K. I can guarantee you for others it's a lot higher. For some, it's even lower than $30K. We should condition pilots to expect a salary at a major 121 carrier that is at least able to comfortably support an average-sized family living in a nice area of a major metropolitan area. Virtually any pilot at a major 121 carrier has worked long and hard to get to that point and we should negotiate compensation that is in line with the work it took to get there and the demands/responsibilities of the job.

Regarding starting over, perhaps in the days of yore, when regulation reigned and a few dominant airlines ruled the skies, the seniority system we have created for ourselves was an effective way of protecting ourselves. It's not anymore. You are absolutely right in that starting over has become an all-too familiar aspect of this job for too many of us. The seniority system must adapt to reflect that. It no longer looks out for the interests of most of us. In fact, it hurts far more of us than it helps. Just look around.

 

[AA717driver]

A question from someone new to the industry...... I've seen much bashing of ALPA in general and Duane Worth in particular on this board. If he's doing such a bad job, why can't he be voted out? Surely there are annual or periodical elections? Is there someone else in mind for the job? What qualities are we/you looking for?

Moose--Good question. That would be equivalent to voting out the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and some squadron puke running for the job.

ALPA National is the holy grail for those among us who would rather work in an office than fly. It takes incredible political skills (not the good kind--better get your claws sharpened) much a$$-kissing and deal-making. By the time you get to Herndon, you've lost any loyalty to your own pilot group.

To actually make it to the ALPA BOD, you will have had to dispatch many of your competitors and exchange blood, spit and other bodily fluids which shall go unnamed with the other BOD members to get that coveted position. More blood will be shed and other fluids exchanged to get to one of the top three spots at ALPA National. THEN you have made it to the top. That's when the gravy starts rolling in.

This takes years of plott...er, excuse me, planning to execute. By the time Hank Duffy became President of ALPA, Delta (his airline) wasn't even flying the type of plane he was last qualified on--the DC-8.

Anyway, it bears no resemblance to a democratic process. The Russian people had more say in electing Khrushchev than we had in electing Woerth.TC

 

[Captain Overs]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHO!!! Boy, xjet, that's a good one.

Now that the ALPA Golden Boys are in deep $h!t, you want everyone to sit up and take notice. Sorry, that train pulled out of the station in 1983 and kept picking up speed until ALPA stabbed the TWA pilots in the back in 2001.

Let me refresh your memory:

No nationwide walkout when Lorenzo stole the CAL pensions.

No nationwide walkout when random drug testing was implemented.

No nationwide walkout when pilots were forced to go through security screening with the pax.

No nationwide walkout when Lorenzo was stealing EAL blind prior to shutting them down.

No nationwide walkout when the Delta pilots screwed the PanAm pilots.

No nationwide walkout when ALPA carrier Reno got stapled by non-ALPA carrier AA.

No nationwide walkout when Emery pilots got hosed.

No nationwide walkout when ALPA carrier TWA was advised to abandon its SCOPE clause by ALPA attorneys then the majority of its pilots were stapled by non-ALPA carrier AA.

Too little, too late dog...TC

I'm sure you sat and watched it happen without opening your mouth.