Nationwide Walkout!!!!

[TWA Dude]

You don't seem to get it, Chief. It's not illegal.

Tell that to the judge.

The Airlines are going to have to manage their way out of their problems, and cutting pilot pay further isn;t an option, period. Raise fares, and manage intelligently. Stop raiding the coffers and bailing with golden parachutes.

Preaching to the choir.

What are you? Apparently, a beaten-down person who is content to just take it and take it.

Take it? Take what? I've been a Teamster, ALPA, APA, ALPA, and ALPA again. I'm also a member of a class-action lawsuit against ALPA. I vote in every election. If we strike I'll strike. A nationwide sickout will generate plenty of publicity (as intended) with the result being more wins for management.

Sure I do. Because we are all in this together- something you don't seem to get. Maybe after two more pay cuts and/or another pink slip the curtain will lift, and all will be made clear for you. Me, I see it now.

Speaking of pink slips, you're seeing things through rose-colored glasses. As others here have more eloquently stated ALPA pilots have very different interests depending on which company they fly for and how senior they are. Effective leadership might be able to trick the public into thinking there's unity but most of usl know better.

 

[Nindiri]

It doesn't matter what the union says about a "sickout". The courts would still hold ALPA responsible for any large scale sickout or mass resignation and hit it with massive fines. You think ALPA is useless now? Try no union at all.

 

[Ty Webb]

What neither of you seem to get is that there is no union to hold accountable. We're not talking ALPA here, we're talking 121 pilots making a stand that ALPA doesn't have the stomach for.

 

[Nindiri]

I understand what you're saying and if you can make it work I'm for it. The problem is that the courts don't care whether the union directly calls for it or not. They will hold it accountable for any sickout or mass resignation. Look what happened in the last few years when pilots at some of the majors tried it and the court warned ALPA that they would be heavily fined if it continued. Hell, if I understand correctly, the union nearly got in trouble at Comair during their negotiations just because the pilots acting independently of ALPA wrote up more mechanical discrepancies than usual.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Time to lead by example, buddy.

FN FAL can't. He flies a Caravan for a FedEx feeder which means he's non-union.

He won't be falling on any swords anytime soon.

HMM

 

[rvsm410]

What????

Did we just sit around when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?...........................................

I think you better go back and watch the movie or read a book...Germans???

Geez!

 

[BoilerUP]

It was an obscure Animal House reference...

 

[MedFlyer]

I'm a pilot . . A pilot with a brain, and some stones.

Judging by the contract your pilot group is working under, I wouldn't be bragging about your stones too much. Hate to tell you, but upstart LCC's whose pilots have been willing to work for far less are PART of the problem.

As for a walkout, it's a nice idea, but it wouldn't accomplish anything. It would simply turn the flying public and the government against pilots even more. Do you really think you are going to get sympathy from the average Joe?

It's kind of funny that everyone seems to think that just raising fares will solve all the problems. Well, if that's the case:

-Maybe all stores that sell clothes should raise their prices 30%, so that they can pay the sweatshop workers in Asia a decent wage?

-Maybe your grocery store should raise the price of food 30% so that the poor migrants who pick your produce can have a living wage and benefits?

-Maybe the government (state, federal, local) should raise your taxes 30% so that teachers, firefighters, police, EMT's, can get a decent wage?

-Maybe the government should raise taxes even more so that our men and women serving in the armed forces can make a decent wage? Many of the folks on the ground in Iraq make far less than the pilots on this board and are doing work that is far more dangerous and just as difficult.

Everyone on this board screams to raise prices, but I'd bet you wouldn't support the same being done in other industries. I'm not saying that fares shouldn't go up, but there are a lot of consequences that most on this board don't understand.

 

[100LL... Again!]

As I have said before, most people are greedy when times are good. Try getting them to unite for the common good when they are scared and angry.

 

[Ty Webb]

They will hold it accountable for any sickout or mass resignation. Look what happened in the last few years when pilots at some of the majors tried it and the court warned ALPA that they would be heavily fined if it continued. .

Look, guy, I don't all day to sit here and say the same thing over and over. What happened at American was one union. That is why the judge imposed the fine. I-am-not-talking-about-a-union-action. . . . . clear enough? I'm talking about pilots-in-general.

 

[Ty Webb]

double post

 

[Ty Webb]

Judging by the contract your pilot group is working under, I wouldn't be bragging about your stones too much

Oh, really? Have you read our contract? Do you have any idea how many hours I fly, or how many credit hours I get paid for? How many months I was here before upgrade? How about QOL issues?

So exactly what do you think a 737 pilot should make? And, pray tell, what airline employs a man such as yourself? Make more than I do, and have a better QOL, do you? How 'bout that commute? Got job security? How long is the upgrade at your Shangri-La? Let's hear all about it.

As for a walkout, it's a nice idea, but it wouldn't accomplish anything. It would simply turn the flying public and the government against pilots even more. Do you really think you are going to get sympathy from the average Joe?

Did anyone say that the stated goal was to garner symapthy? It's to make a statement . . . to show some strength, to direct the spotlight on the fact that pilots are standing firm, and will not be flying 767's for LCC 717 pay.

It's kind of funny that everyone seems to think that just raising fares will solve all the problems. Well, if that's the case:

-Maybe your grocery store should raise the price of food 30% so that the poor migrants who pick your produce can have a living wage and benefits?

-Maybe the government (state, federal, local) should raise your taxes 30% so that teachers, firefighters, police, EMT's, can get a decent wage?

Apparently you have an awfully hard time getting your mind around this very simple concept:

This is America. You get what you can negotiate. If you negotiate it, they will have to raise fares. If less people are flying coast-coast for $129., that's too bad, that's reality.

What I am talking about here is not "raising prices 30% to give workers a raise", what I am talking about is saying that we are not willing to let this profession erode to the point where it is no longer worth doing, and the proposed DAL and NWA pay scales are at that point. Maybe not for you, but I am not going to do this job for a penny less. It's not worth it.

If you guys are content to sit back and work for less and less, until it's gone, so be it. I have other sources of income. I don't particulary care any more.
I came into this job with my eyes open, and I never stopped developing business interests on the outside.

As T.S. Eliot said, "This is the way the world ends . . . not with a bang, but a whimper.

Whimper on, MF.

 

[TinGoose1]

The cold hard fact is that ALPA doesn't have a backbone, period. If your waiting for Duane Woerth to lead, your going to get really bored waiting. Duane won't comment on anything really affecting our union, only things that make him look busy in Washington. I say we all walk off our jobs as well. WE are getting screwed. And until we stand up and act like men, we are going to continue to get screwed by those in management that figured that out a long time ago.

 

[jetfo]

While I am glad to see some of the regional boys starting to try and stand up for something.

I am puzzeled why they did not do it before? You know, back when UsAir was being gutted, TWA, UAL, etc...

Oh wait.....thats right, back then mgmt. was busy gutting the mainlines and buying the regional boys a whole heap o new shiny jets to play with! I see, now that your rj's are being removed out from under you by other regionals that are undercutting you, you now want a nationwide action campaign.

About 4 years ago I got bashed on another webboard for bringing this fact up, back then I told those guys that is was only a matter of time before they were the ones targeted, and if it kept up their chances of ever seeing a mainline in their career was quickly dissappearing. I believe his exact response to me was (coming from a 25 year old new RJ Capt.), "Your time is over old man, your kind is a dinosaur, get out of the way." Funny how a few years and approaching 30 years old will change a fellows point of view!


OK Rant over, At least it is nice that the regional guys are starting to see that what happens to one section of the industry affect all of us sooner or later.

"Complete integration of all regional carriers into the parent company's seniority list is the only way to solve this problem. However I think the window of oppertunity on that is far past.

"

This is absolutely correct ! Unfortunately, the opposite seems to be occurring. Mainlines are divesting themselves of wholly owned regionals that could have been integrated with the mainlines over time.

Just watch what happened to Coex, Pinnacle (Express I), the asset sale of Midatlantic "division of mainline," and now ASA.

Next is the divestiture/asset sale of Comair to Mesa, followed by the divestiture of American Eagle. The latter would have happened already if there were any potential buyer.

Other sell offs will likely follow. This may include the only other remaining wholly owned regionals like Horizon, Piedmont/Allegheny and PSA.

Outsourcing and complete elimination of scope is on the horizon. The winners will be the likes of Skywest, Republic and Mesa. The rest of us will be out of luck for the immediate future.

Longterm things will return to equilibrium. Eventually, traffic increase will outpace the available pilot pool and things will return to a semblence of normalcy.

This industry will look a lot different though. Regionals will fly everything up to the E170/190 and the new Bombardier C class 110-130 pax jet. They will take over an even larger portion of domestic short and medium range routes and there will be a realistic career with top income in the $100K to $130K range. Not unlike AirTran, JetBlue, Frontier, etc..

The legacy carriers fleet will start with aircraft the size of the A319/A320, focusing on long range transcontinental and intercontinental routes. There will be consolidation/mergers until we reach 3 to 4 legacy carriers and 3 to 4 niche carriers like AirTran, JetBlue, Frontier, and Southwest, as there should be in a mature market. Growth and income will return to this sector when they focus on markets that they serve best.

Some of the new large regionals (really nationals), may possibly be merger candidates with some of the niche carriers, or even the legacy carriers. And we will have come full circle.

The outcome will be far preferable to the present state of industry instability and chaos marked by management-labor infighting while the ship is sinking. Scope may be gone, but it may also have been part of the problem leading to irrational aircraft utilization.

Just look at the CRJ440/200 and the Avro85. We are flying aircraft around that are inefficient to begin with and then we take seats out to make sure that this is a losing proposition to meet scope requirements.

Let's not kid ourselves. Just look at IAH. It is not a Continental hub, it's an ExpressJet hub. More and more of the regionals have nearly as many or more aircraft then the mainlines and many more departures. In reality, these are majors by industry standards. We can thank mainline ALPA for this absurd result.

We will not be able to get the cat back into the bag. Nor should we try. The industry has fundamentally changed and we have to adjust. Scope has done nothing to benefit the majors. This has not protected pilot jobs at the majors, but instead has jeopardized them.

Let's stop the arguing between major and regional pilots. We all fly aircraft that are increasingly of similar size and sophistication, and unfortunately increasingly for similar pay. We should all endeaver to advance this profession and the industry as a whole.

A rising tide lifts all ships. Who cares if a large regional flies the E190, if we get a lot more 777's and 787's at the legacies. I for one would rather fly a 787 to CDG, than fly a F100 to PIT. And, I'll bet I'll be better compensated.

 

[jetfo]

We got this all wrong. We don't need a national seniority list, that would cause more problems than it would solve. I do think that way before that should happen the unions should push for single lists among certain brands. Example, CAL/XJET one list, DAL and everyone that feeds them one list, NWA, AAL, UAL, USAir and their respective regionals, one list.

The true problem here is the RJ. I am an RJ captain however, I can see where the problem lies. Now some might say that if the problem is the RJ, then the RJ pilots are to blams....wrong. The real people who dropped the ball are the pilots at the majors who ALLOWED those "Turbo props without props" to be operated by the regionals in the first place. I can totally see why they made that decision though, managments of the US airlines lulled everyone into a false sense of security. "It's only an RJ, it's just a turbo prop without props, it's not a threat to your jobs besides who wants to go back to flying a turbo-prop without props anyway" SOOOOOO the Major airline pilots of America said "Okay fine, you can operate those airplanes at the regionals" with varying rules.

These RJ's came online with their turbo prop pay and did "regional" type flying. But a few years later, as they proved themselves those airplanes started to replace DC9 routes, then 737 routes and now there is a glut of RJ's and all bets are off. They fly the same routes as the mainline aircraft but are still being paid turbo prop pay.

Now here's the clincher. The major airline pilots and ALPA national never gave much thought to regional pilot pay....."Pay your dues kid! I did!" was the phrase. The problem is that all airline pilots are connected on these issues, hence the reason for ALPA national in the first place. It took some time but eventually management realized that if these RJ pilots will work for X, so will the 737 guys and so on.

One of the negotiating issues we had at XJet in 2000 was that we wanted our pay to be in line with CAL. Meaning that we wanted to use the same method of paying CAL aircraft applied to the RJ instead of the ATR method.
We fell short of what we thought was "in-line" with CAL pay in 2000 but then CAL took concessions and guess what, We are now paid in line with CAL but they came down to us, not us up to them.

The same thing has happened all over the industry, the RJ pilots aren't so severly underpaid anymore because the majors have all taken concessions and come down to our level. Interpolate from the 737 down and the RJ's should be in line with major airline pay.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame the pilots of the major airlines in the 90's who allowed RJ's at the regionals. There was no way to know that this would happen....in fact if you went back in time and told them, they wouldn't believe you. Conversly you can't blame the RJ pilots, we are all pawns in the same game.
The RJ paved the way to water down pilot compensation levels. 9/11 accelerated that watering down and gas prices are now pushing it further. Soon, RJ's will start to go away but replacing those RJs will be E190's which will further degrade the industry pay because a precident has already been made by paying those pilots flying anything Embraer at turbo prop rates....(Don't believe me? The E190 and E170 are comparable to a 737 and DC 9 respectivly....look at the difference in pay!)

What ALPA national needs to do is set minimum equipment rates and refuse to sign any contract that violates those rates. Its the only way to stop people from trying to cut their brothers heads off in "Pilot pay fare wars"

Just my opinion.

Mr. Hat:

This is a great idea that should be pursued. Finally, we could quit the pilot infighting and focus on fair compensation.

A minimum equipment rate, perhaps based on seats, weight or aircraft type would benefit all pilots. And, to a certain extent, limit the mainline vs regional, as well as scope issues.