National Seniority Protocol

[C180drvr]

Simply the BEST idea to come from ALPA since deregulation and the best solution to industry problems.

Pilots seem to be the only group where we match the lowest paid - the norm is for management to exploit these differences. Oil had an extraordinary rise over the past year, but the airlines paid the cost. Nationalization would result in another commodity (pilots) and end this exploitation of seeking cuts against other pilots and using seniority as a deterrent from changing carriers. We're unique in our inability to move to highest bidder, like any other profession.

The pilot group also seems to measure 'success' by other pilot groups - stupid, because if the industry is in the toilet, so is the benchmark. If I make $2 more an hour than the next pilot group, but less than the Costco greeter, there's a problem. We need to compare to other professions and realize what a joke the industry and career outlook has become.

The national list would also hedge risk in the industry - the fact I can go to work at a strong company and have absolutely ZERO expectation at retirement and/or to see a pension is ridiculous and unique to our industry. We're not paid any premium for this uncertainty risk factor.

Hopefully pilots will realize some short term restructuring has the potential to realize much greater long term returns. We need to stop subsidizing cheap tickets for the world and invest in the long term.

 

[AvroJockey]

What stops airline A from not hiring a pilot from airline B because he has been around longer and will cost more than just hiring some newb straight out of flightschool? Also not every airline is alpa so will non-alpa pilots get hired first because they have no longevity elsewhere to carry over? Fill me in

More than likely age discrimination laws will stop this from happening. It won't completely because seniority doesn't exactly old, but most of the time it does.

You're second point is something that needs to be hashed out before implementing nationwide seniority , however, a non-alpa carrier could become ALPA. these are the issues that ALPA leaders deal with when something big like this happens. this is why you vote for said leaders.

For all the naysayers out there, do you want to continue down the same road your union is going? It will only yield the same fruit. This should have been done years ago.

Odds are this will have no effect on me because I start at NetJets monday, but I always thought this was a great idea. The simple fact is that professional organizations like the American Medical Association and the American Dental Association have more power over their labor force than APLA does. It it comes down to economics. Didn't you guys take microeconomics in college?

BTW...this is the other thing ALPA should be doing: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=48321

 

[Poahi]

The simple fact is that professional organizations like the American Medical Association and the American Dental Association have more power over their labor force than APLA does. It it comes down to economics. Didn't you guys take microeconomics in college?
BTW...this is the other thing ALPA should be doing: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=48321

ALPA doesn't certify airline pilots. ALPA is actually opposed to higher training standards. And with the way the airlines are run these days, for good reason.

A doctor is an individual who offers a service directly from himself to the patient (or at least he has that capability). A pilot must be an employee of an airline. As a pilot, you can't distinguish yourself and you certianly can't offer your services to the public.

Think about it: The next time you want to fly to Europe, do you ask other travelers who flew their flight? "Yeah, I went to Spain last year and Captain xxx flew me. He did a great job, had great plane side manner and didn't leave a scar. And he took my insurance."

It isn't going to happen.

This proposal is so bad, I'd bet several regionals will decertify ALPA if it passes.

I'll say it again, until ALPA gets control of the training and certification process, it is peeing in to the wind.

 

[DoinTime]

Yeah, but who would it include? 135? 91? How do you determine senority? Commercial checkride? ATP? PIC Type? First 61/141 job? First job outside of 61/141? What about professional CFI's? These seem to be the questions that nobody wants to address and nobody can answer. Now, should it include ALL professional pilots and not just 121ies, then it becomes fair and easier to support. Otherwise, it seems as if 121 pilots are trying to demand more than they're worth. Sorry, but isn't the purpose of this movement to artificially inflate the price of pilot labor? On the other hand it would be great to see you RJ pilots say, "F**K YOU, PAY ME!" to management.

What happens when the airlines refuse to hire pilots from SuperUnion? There will still be pilots who see the value in NOT being part of this union. Then SuperUnion will be as usless as any current organization.

Can anyone else see where I'm coming from or am I alone on this?

Considering that this is solely an ALPA initiative you can expect anyone that isn't ALPA to not be considered. That being the case I'm sure ALPA would sign up anyone that was interested joining the collective instead of risking it alone out in an independent union or non-union shop. Support from anyone outside ALPA is irrelevant to make this happen.

New positions that the airlines would normally have to hire for would first be made available to anyone on the master seniority list. If nobody bid the position the airline would have to hire a new pilot on to the seniority list. The airline would not have a choice on whether or not to bring in someone from another ALPA carrier.

The purpose of this initiative, as stated earlier, is to stabilize the profession. If this ends up being used as a lever to super inflate pilot wages and benefits it will likely lead to the permanent demise of ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA is actually opposed to higher training standards.

This is incorrect.

 

[PCL_128]

Considering that this is solely an ALPA initiative you can expect anyone that isn't ALPA to not be considered. That being the case I'm sure ALPA would sign up anyone that was interested joining the collective instead of risking it alone out in an independent union or non-union shop. Support from anyone outside ALPA is irrelevant to make this happen.

I agree, but you need to be careful about how you set this up to make sure that it doesn't kill further organizing efforts. The UAL resolution included "seniority benchmarks" that would credit non-ALPA and non-union pilots on the national list. If this isn't done, then you'll never organize another non-ALPA group again. Non-ALPA pilots can't be concerned about losing their seniority if they join ALPA. A universal standard needs to be set that would place non-ALPA pilots in the proper place on the list if they decide to join ALPA. You can't just staple them if they join after the list is implemented.

 

[xjhawk]

The talk continues about a National Seniority list. I have given it a lot of thought. A way, not the only way to get this started is to establish a National List for ALPA date of hire, starting with your first ALPA membership. What would this list do for you?

First, you would retain your seniority at your company and your company would retain the rights of hire. You would not lose your position/pay quality of life at your current position because a very senior person at a different airline was hired after you at your company but had a higher National number.

Your national number would first cover such things as:

vacation accural and usage (transfered from one airline to another.

Sick time/personal time, same concept as vacation

And I think the most important, your retirement. ALPA would take the best systems out there, accounting for match percentages and wage rates to transfere your retirement with you to your new job if you should move jobs.

The benefits would be something that all pilots could take advantage of.

 

[Poahi]

The talk continues about a National Seniority list.

That's an understatement. Mesa's got a new approach I've never seen before: Selling seniority.

Mesa is now offering their qualified pilots the option of flying for KunPeng (an airline they are divesting themselves of), under different conditions than those employed directly by KunPeng now or in the future. In exchange for a pay differential, you can keep your seniority and longevity at Mesa and return under cryptic terms after 2 years. The pay differential works out to about $80,000 over the 2 year period.

 

[CEO silly sap]

If you guys could pull this off and the airlines somehow signed off on it, it would be great for America. You will basically have turned all your airlines into one massive airline that will be much easier for new up and coming airlines to compete with. Real competition will come in and hopefully wipe out all of the old dinosaurs that are sitting around. Southwest will probably become a national since it won't have to put up with your labor BS that you will be putting on your airlines. I will definitely try to invest in a new airline since you guys will have tied the hands of your airlines so much that it will be easy to undercut them.

Sadly, the airlines would never accept such lunacy as their labor telling them who they have to hire. But, it would be nice to see some real change in the industry.

Not since the UAW have I seen a group of people so intent on organizing themselves out of jobs. But, I'm sure it's just the evil management in Detroit that is forcing Americans to not buy their cars just to screw the auto workers just like the evil management in the airlines is trying to screw all of its pilots every day.

I remember the UAW signing off on the bonus for managment. I also recall the UAW sitting in on the auto makers business planning sessions. But the biggest error the UAW did was setting the price for the autos. It was so sad to see labor think they could run a business, it should be left up to those with college degrees and mba/s. Maybe someday soon these Unions will know that they need to stick with wrench turning and seat placement. Stay out of the boardroom and away from the budgeting and spreadsheet modifications.

 

[CEO silly sap]

If I could make a small suggestion;

If you are an alpa pilot, then contact your rep and find out how to get this ball moving. Ask them questions, because posting here wont do anything but waste time on this issue.

One last thing, what if alpa did all the training and supplied pilots to the airlines?