National ALPA Skywest=SCABS

[~~~^~~~]

The SkyWest pilots are not scabs, they are opportunists and some are defensive about continuing to take ASA's aircraft, but they are not scabs.

The ASA pilots were in a tough spot and made their decision to back ALPA based on a genuine desire to hold the line on concessionary bargaining - to stop the erosion of our profession. They have made this decision before when pitted against Comair pilots. Now that decision is tremendously difficult as ASA downgrades and seven year Captains like myself find ourselves on reserve. (For 5 of my 7 years at ASA)

SkyWest pilots should not pat themselves on the back and thank Adam Smith's unseen hand in their fortuity. This is not divine providence, it is ugly old union busting and once the ASA pilots are beaten and ALPA is discredited, the SkyWest pilots will be next in the barrel without scope, or any other protections.

The only reason why a SkyWest pilot would want to join ALPA is to try to stop the erosion of this profession. New hire SkyWest First Officers have nearly 1,200 pilots ahead of them before they upgrade. That is 218 jets - more than ASA has even if the entire 50 jets in Delta's alleged RFP show up and no E120's or -200's go out of service. This means that mathmatically it is likely that upgrade times will get very long at SkyWest and eventually they will see stabilization around industry norms. Probably then, they will want ALPA.

Right now they see a "fire sale" on RJ flying and they are grabbing all they can. Maybe ASA should have done the same thing, but for ASA pilots, they saw it as a matter of integrity.

Probably nothing will make it easy for the ASA pilots to accept their fate. Perhaps they should undercut the SkyWest pilots (and they probably will Mesaba style once things get desperate enough)

SkyWest pilots should vote ALPA to try to improve and enhance the profession. Not voting ALPA does not make SkyWest pilots scabs, but it does put the ASA pilots under more pressure to under bid the SkyWest guys, which is just what Jerry Atkin wants.

In the mean time, SkyWest guys should consider being patient with their ASA counterparts. ASA is dying because they took a stand.

 

[txpilot1974]

Vote no on union rep. and keep taking airplanes from a unionized airline, I hope national ALPA puts out a new LIST...Just a warning !!!

Hope you skywest pilots looked at St. George last week when CAL,FEDEX,DAL,ASA,Comair,United pilots showed up to picket

But you can fly at jetblue or airtran or AA.....

Yeah..sure..I'm alot closer to voting for ALPA now.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In the mean time, SkyWest guys should consider being patient with their ASA counterparts. ASA is dying because they took a stand.

Like a Hollywood B movie. The ASA pilots are getting tortured for standing up. The favored Skywest pilots need to decide if they really consider the ASA their fellow pilots or just a group of unlucky SOBs that happen to fly CRJ's too.

Are the SW pilots going to forgo the little luxuries given to them for not helping the ASA pilots?

Who decides who is lucky?

I'd rather be tortured than take managements little luxuries...

 

[Tomct]

TOMCT,

You still did not answer the question I asked? Again, I hope your right, I just want to know why your so sure? I have not seen any facts to back up what you say.

Medeco

Med, talked with a CP who said that by April, we would be flying that much out of SLC. Most likely coming from ATL and LAX! We still have ship 703 and I don't think it will go anywhere. Either way, we are going to grow out of LAX and we are the only ones that can do that flying. Talked with our hotel person who is getting the hotels and he says that he is checking into getting rooms all up and down the west coast. Only time will tell! Relax and be patient!

 

[Prop2Jet]

Colgan is going to take all of your little rjs and rip the engines off them and put props on them! That will stop your bickery.

 

[Thunder]

Vote no on union rep. and keep taking airplanes from a unionized airline, I hope national ALPA puts out a new LIST...Just a warning !!!

Hope you skywest pilots looked at St. George last week when CAL,FEDEX,DAL,ASA,Comair,United pilots showed up to picket

But you can fly at jetblue or airtran or AA.....

dude you need throwing the word scab. hell, these days unions aren't strong enough to ever strike so there are never really any scabs out there because when is the last time a PILOT GROUP was actually on strike? i can't remember...burr duhhh.....

BTW if skywest becomes ALPA, alpa will probably shrink their profits and growth so fast there heads will spin.....

Don't do it skywest!!! ALPA sucks at the regional level!!!!!!!!

 

[sweptback]

BTW if skywest becomes ALPA, alpa will probably shrink their profits and growth so fast there heads will spin.....

Exactly how would ALPA do this?

 

[SkyNation]

sweptback,

I hate to answer your question with a question, but nonetheless:

why do you think SkyWest management wants to keep a union off property?

 

[copcar1988]

sweptback,

I hate to answer your question with a question, but nonetheless:

why do you think SkyWest management wants to keep a union off property?

My uneducated guess would either be a scope protection (i.e. gojets), or to prevent a sympathy strike from happening if ASA ever gets released.

 

[Thunder]

if ASA ever gets released.

which they won't, this country and its current courts and lawmakers are anti-union, get a clue. its sad to say.

 

[Bluto]

My uneducated guess would either be a scope protection (i.e. gojets), or to prevent a sympathy strike from happening if ASA ever gets released.

Dude, no offense, but uneducated is right. Sympathy strike? Just not going to happen in this industry. It's difficult enough for an airline to get released themselves for negotiating purposes, much less for solidarity. Most regionals have little or no scope protection so, that's probably not very likely either.

The reasons SGU doesn't want a union should be pretty obvious. They're the same reasons many of the pilots want one. A binding contract wouldn't allow "pen-stroke policy changes", toothless negotiating tactics, etc.

 

[legalalien]

Med, talked with a CP who said that by April, we would be flying that much out of SLC. Most likely coming from ATL and LAX! We still have ship 703 and I don't think it will go anywhere. Either way, we are going to grow out of LAX and we are the only ones that can do that flying. Talked with our hotel person who is getting the hotels and he says that he is checking into getting rooms all up and down the west coast. Only time will tell! Relax and be patient!

You might have checked the daily report on ourasa before making that bold statement. Look at the bottom of the report for OCT 30 - 4 flights canx because 703 was transferred to Skywest.

 

[SkyNation]

The reasons SGU doesn't want a union should be pretty obvious.

Bluto,

do you believe that it is purely an issue of pride on the part of BH, JA, RR, et al? or do you suppose that it might just be possible that they feel that it would negatively affect the company bottom line (which, or course, negatively affects all employees)?

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Not even worth as rebuttal.

 

[BigLebowski]

Wrong! Skywest is taking a couple of planes right now, two 700s. Delta and SKYW Inc decide where the planes go, while pilots fly them. ALPA has no control over that. If that were true, beings ASA is cheaper on the 200s, SKYW would transfer all the 200s to ASA right?

VOTED IN FAVOR!

Last time I checked...SkyWest bought ASA from Delta. Therefore we own ASA and their assets. So sir, please help me overcome my ignorance and explain to me how we're "taking" a couple of your planes.

 

[BigLebowski]

I have a question...it was mentioned that SkyWest pilots are scabs and will not be able to be hired elsewhere because they are not ALPA. Can you ALPA kool-aid drinkers ask me this then???

How come we have an a$$load of United furloughs here that are being recalled in the next few months. If they are scabs wouldn't United not bring them back. Also how come I personally know many people here that are going to Continental, FedEx, etc. Their ALPA...what's the deal.

Also how come every ALPA carrier pickets, yet I came from an ALPA carrier to come to SkyWest and have been happy ever since. My QOL here at SkyWest is better than any other regional out there right now.

 

[dnkt]

Im in the union and it sucks.

 

[SSDD]

TOMCT,

You might want to read Wing's post about cancellations and aircraft transfers, it appears that 703 has been transferred.

Guess the CP was blowing smoke, or doesn't know squat.

 

[embdrvr]

Last time I checked...SkyWest bought ASA from Delta. Therefore we own ASA and their assets. So sir, please help me overcome my ignorance and explain to me how we're "taking" a couple of your planes.

You don't "own" squat.
The parent company of SkyWest Airlines owns ASA.
The two airlines are simply two subsidiaries of the same company. Some back office operations are combined at SGU while operations are controlled separately.

Hopefully that helps you overcome your ignorance.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Last time I checked...SkyWest bought ASA from Delta. Therefore we own ASA and their assets. So sir, please help me overcome my ignorance and explain to me how we're "taking" a couple of your planes.

You own nothing. You feel good about yourself now because your chances for upgrade and progression have been improved due to the fact we are losing aiplanes and jobs at ASA. I can tell you now that ASA pilots and the Association wouldn't allow it if the situation were reversed. Thats the difference between you and me. Feel good about it if you must.

 

[HelloNewman]

You own nothing. You feel good about yourself now because your chances for upgrade and progression have been improved due to the fact we are losing aiplanes and jobs at ASA. I can tell you now that ASA pilots and the Association wouldn't allow it if the situation were reversed. Thats the difference between you and me. Feel good about it if you must.

I doubt anyone would really turn down growth and upgrades out of "principal". Everyone says the planes are going to go where they need to anyway. You might as well take advantage when things work out in your favor. I have yet to see anyone turn down an upgrade out of principal.

 

[ohplease!]

You own nothing. You feel good about yourself now because your chances for upgrade and progression have been improved due to the fact we are losing aiplanes and jobs at ASA. I can tell you now that ASA pilots and the Association wouldn't allow it if the situation were reversed. Thats the difference between you and me. Feel good about it if you must.

it already happened and we did take the planes/jobs and the association did allow it. Ask the folks at Comair.

 

[SkyWstman]

As far as scabs go, since many are saying that since Skywest pilots are flying ASA planes on ASA routes they are scabs, does that mean American pilots are scabs too for flying TWA planes on TWA routes?

 

[Firehoser]

I just laugh

I just laugh at some of the posts on this board. Does ALPA really think they can define the labor market? Ok, lets run with that - assume that ALPA can somehow engineer a national seniority list and somehow get a national contract with all current carriers - ALPA's wet dream. Would ALPA be able to define the labor market then?

Only for a short time. As with any company labor costs would rise over time and labor being the largest cost center and pilot compensation taking up the majority of that, pilots would contribute the most to this increase in operating expenses. Over say an 8 year period, operational costs would rise to the point where a market opening for a new carrier(s) will be created. At this point one or more new non-unionized regional carriers will start operating with new equipment, operational guarantees and even if the pay scales are exactly the same, significantly lower labor costs. This would enable the new entrants to undercut all other carriers in the system and steal business away from them. And the cycles of boom, concessions and bankruptcies will start all over again.

This is precisely what has happened to the majors with LCCs over the last two decades but ALPA is too dumb to recognize the pattern. Their "economic experts" (full well having access to market analyses, and market history trends which argued otherwise - ask me, I will post the links) convinced the local units that because profits were at an all time high, their companies could afford the extravagent increases in compensation.

Well the market forces came home to roost after Sept 11th in the form of the worst down cycle and the only carriers to avoid bankruptcy were American, whose pilots agreed early to wage cuts, and Continental who due to a simple stroke of luck didn't suffer the losses other mainline carriers did. As to Delta, US Airways, United, Northwest and Comair, they are now working under work rules WORSE than their contracts of 15 years ago. The only way to avoid this inevitability is to work WITH the company and become LESS GREEDY, keeping your operating costs within competitive range of any new market entrant. Will ALPA ever learn the lessons of history? No. Analyses by MIT and other reputable institutions are forecasting another signficant profit boom and then an even larger down cycle than the one we are just coming out of. Will ALPA units like ASA's MEC consider the next down cycle (which MIT forecasts has an 11 year period) in their negotiations? No, they will convince the rank and file the company can afford the contract without offering any analyses and without presenting any hard numbers. They will simply say "Trust us!" and hope the rank and file doesn't study industry history.

ASA's MEC is thus making precisely the same mistakes: Skywest is significantly profitable, and ALPA National is telling ASA MEC the company can afford the increases - its just like the 1990s with the majors: the situation is so similar its eerie.

ALPA has elected a new President who thinks that he can restore compensation by beating his collective breast and throwing a temper tantrum by having ASA go on strike. Skywest Inc. owns the gates at Hartsfield and the hulls. Expect them in the event of a strike to declare Chapter 7, and liquidate the airline expeditously so Delta can route other carriers into Atlanta to cover the transition, transfer the hulls to Skywest Airlines, which in turn will result in a huge drop in unit costs due to all the first year pay scales coming on line. Skywest will then rebuild Atlanta, and because their unit costs are so low, successfully bid for the majority of the flying currently on RFP becoming the largest regional carrier in the United States. At that point their sheer size will give them significant pricing leverage they didnt' previously have and their profits margins will grow.

What's cheaper, that or putting your money down an uncompetitive rathole for the next five years or so until you have to declare bankruptcy anyway or cutting your losses now and rebuild a stronger, much more competitive airline right in time for the next big profit cycle when the majors will suck your pilots up keeping the average pay seniority low, thus keeping you competitive for winning even more business? If I were Jerry Atkins, its precisely what I would do.

"He who refuses to face the facts of history will ultimately be victimized by history."

ALPA will never understand that the market forces in play are largely bigger than all of us and it membership will never understand how masterfully they are being manipulated to serve the egos and the agendas of a few. Skywest if you want to unionize, go right ahead, I actually think it would probably be a good thing for you to do but avoid ALPA like the plague - form your own internal union.

 

[sweptback]

ASA's MEC is thus making precisely the same mistakes: Skywest is significantly profitable, and ALPA National is telling ASA MEC the company can afford the increases - its just like the 1990s with the majors: the situation is so similar its eerie.

We're not asking for industry-leading rates. However we would like to see payrates slightly above currently successful airlines like CHQ, XJT, and SKW. I don't think 1-2% above that is going to make us that much less competitive.

ALPA has elected a new President who thinks that he can restore compensation by beating his collective breast and throwing a temper tantrum by having ASA go on strike. Skywest Inc. owns the gates at Hartsfield and the hulls. Expect them in the event of a strike to declare Chapter 7, and liquidate the airline expeditously so Delta can route other carriers into Atlanta to cover the transition, transfer the hulls to Skywest Airlines, which in turn will result in a huge drop in unit costs due to all the first year pay scales coming on line. Skywest will then rebuild Atlanta, and because their unit costs are so low, successfully bid for the majority of the flying currently on RFP becoming the largest regional carrier in the United States. At that point their sheer size will give them significant pricing leverage they didnt' previously have and their profits margins will grow.

While I'm sure this would be the wet dream of about 30-50% of the SkyWest pilots (cool, instant upgrade thanks to those greedy ASA pilots!), I think you drastically underestimate how slowly the Chapter 7 process goes. Everything must go through the courts, and even if it took 3 months to get it finalized, that's 3 months of struck work that can't be flown. That would be enough to bankrupt SkyWest and kill Delta.

 

[Arrow11]

Great post Firehoser, well written, thoughtful and analytical, did you post on FI by mistake?

 

[Arrow11]

We're not asking for industry-leading rates. However we would like to see payrates slightly above currently successful airlines like CHQ, XJT, and SKW. I don't think 1-2% above that is going to make us that much less competitive.



While I'm sure this would be the wet dream of about 30-50% of the SkyWest pilots (cool, instant upgrade thanks to those greedy ASA pilots!), I think you drastically underestimate how slowly the Chapter 7 process goes. Everything must go through the courts, and even if it took 3 months to get it finalized, that's 3 months of struck work that can't be flown. That would be enough to bankrupt SkyWest and kill Delta.

I think Firehoser's argument is that what would stop Delta using other DCA carriers and reflowing their flying through ATL? Isn't that what happened when Comair went on strike?

 

[Firehoser]

ALPA's sinister plan?

Here is the link for this post so you have the full context:

http://www.ainonline.com/issues/08_01/08_01_comairstrikepg60.html

Here is the quote from Duane Woerth:

"Despite far reaching improvements in pay and work rules, the Airline Pilots Association failed to achieve its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike. Billed by ALPA President Duane Woerth as "a crusade to recognize regional pilots as "real airline pilots" rather than de-facto trainees for major airlines, the Comair negotiations were to become a watershed event in reshaping how people think about and compensate pilots," according to Woerth.

If, he reasoned, the costs associated with flying regional airplane proportionately equaled those of mainline equipment, major carriers would stop transferring routes flown by DC-9s and 737s to affiliates flying regional jets. " (emphasis added)

If we take this at face value, the intent of ALPA National in pushing regional units to pattern-bargain and consistently raise the bar is soley to make regional flying so expensive to the major carriers that they will take back regional flying!

If that is your goal Mr. Woerth, what about the career regional ALPA members in good standing, paying out dues every year to have their careers protected and enhanced? What will become of their jobs? - The years of seniority they have invested in their companies? Do they not deserve EQUAL representation and protection?

Well Mr. Woerth, you have in some respects already reached that goal in many areas . In a presentation by George Hamlin of Global Aviation Associates at the 2002 US Regional Airline Conference, he points out that when measured on a per seat basis, regional pilot pay is twice that of the majors on some platforms This is significant as most all airlines measure their operating costs not on an hourly basis but on a cost per available seat mile. Here are some of the comparisions:
Type Flight crew annual salary per seat
MD-88 $1312
737-800 $1307
757 $1147
757-400er $ 833
DL 777 $ 906
CRJ 70 $ 1070
CRJ 50 $ 1424

Here is the link for the above analysis: http://www.intervistas.com/4/presentations/ScopeClausesIsEndInSight.pdf

As we can see on a per seat basis regional airline pilot pay is just as expensive or more expensive on approximately half of the aircraft currently flying. And remember, these are 2002 figures before the majors gained significant pay reductions in bankruptcy. Thus the gap is even smaller today - is it any wonder that Delta negotiated 90 seat rates with their pilots? Of course not, with the reductions in wages, it makes more economic sense today to have that flying at mainline rather than the regionals. Great job Mr. Woerth, one down and many to go.

"ALPA failed in reaching its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike"

Really? How many of you rank and file pilots had a chance to debate this goal and submit your opinion in a systematic way to ALPA National that the goal of raising regional pilot compensation to the point where the majors would take back your jobs was in fact in your best interest and should be the goal of every regional MEC?

"a crusade to recognize regional airline pilots as 'real pilots'.

How about representing regional airline pilots as real pilots Mr. Woerth instead of bargaining chips to further mainline pilots careers? How about stopping your attempts at overtly influencing / pressuring the local MECs and selling them your agenda and simply let them represent the local interests of THEIR constituents rather than the interests of ALPA National or "raising the bar for other ALPA units?"

When is ALPA nationally and locally going to become a representative service to the pilots rather than a national business catering to the aims of a few?

 

[JRMANNED]

It's funny. ALPA says they are against a certain group like FREEDOM SCABS. Yet, once they pay ALPA money, ALPA says -Welcome Freedom! Idiots

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here is the link for this post so you have the full context:

http://www.ainonline.com/issues/08_01/08_01_comairstrikepg60.html

Here is the quote from Duane Woerth:

"Despite far reaching improvements in pay and work rules, the Airline Pilots Association failed to achieve its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike. Billed by ALPA President Duane Woerth as "a crusade to recognize regional pilots as "real airline pilots" rather than de-facto trainees for major airlines, the Comair negotiations were to become a watershed event in reshaping how people think about and compensate pilots," according to Woerth.

If, he reasoned, the costs associated with flying regional airplane proportionately equaled those of mainline equipment, major carriers would stop transferring routes flown by DC-9s and 737s to affiliates flying regional jets. " (emphasis added)

If we take this at face value, the intent of ALPA National in pushing regional units to pattern-bargain and consistently raise the bar is soley to make regional flying so expensive to the major carriers that they will take back regional flying!

If that is your goal Mr. Woerth, what about the career regional ALPA members in good standing, paying out dues every year to have their careers protected and enhanced? What will become of their jobs? - The years of seniority they have invested in their companies? Do they not deserve EQUAL representation and protection?

Well Mr. Woerth, you have in some respects already reached that goal in many areas . In a presentation by George Hamlin of Global Aviation Associates at the 2002 US Regional Airline Conference, he points out that when measured on a per seat basis, regional pilot pay is twice that of the majors on some platforms This is significant as most all airlines measure their operating costs not on an hourly basis but on a cost per available seat mile. Here are some of the comparisions:
Type Flight crew annual salary per seat
MD-88 $1312
737-800 $1307
757 $1147
757-400er $ 833
DL 777 $ 906
CRJ 70 $ 1070
CRJ 50 $ 1424

Here is the link for the above analysis: http://www.intervistas.com/4/presentations/ScopeClausesIsEndInSight.pdf

As we can see on a per seat basis regional airline pilot pay is just as expensive or more expensive on approximately half of the aircraft currently flying. And remember, these are 2002 figures before the majors gained significant pay reductions in bankruptcy. Thus the gap is even smaller today - is it any wonder that Delta negotiated 90 seat rates with their pilots? Of course not, with the reductions in wages, it makes more economic sense today to have that flying at mainline rather than the regionals. Great job Mr. Woerth, one down and many to go.

"ALPA failed in reaching its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike"

Really? How many of you rank and file pilots had a chance to debate this goal and submit your opinion in a systematic way to ALPA National that the goal of raising regional pilot compensation to the point where the majors would take back your jobs was in fact in your best interest and should be the goal of every regional MEC?

"a crusade to recognize regional airline pilots as 'real pilots'.

How about representing regional airline pilots as real pilots Mr. Woerth instead of bargaining chips to further mainline pilots careers? How about stopping your attempts at overtly influencing / pressuring the local MECs and selling them your agenda and simply let them represent the local interests of THEIR constituents rather than the interests of ALPA National or "raising the bar for other ALPA units?"

When is ALPA nationally and locally going to become a representative service to the pilots rather than a national business catering to the aims of a few?

BINGO! We have a winner.

I believe ALPA is now on a push to "hold the line" at the regionals while simultaneously underbidding the regionals on 70-90 seat flying at the mainline level, so as to "recapture" the flying. When a mainline group underbids the regionals to take flying, it is called "recapturing". If a regional does the same, it is called "stealing". The double standards continue.