National ALPA Skywest=SCABS

[HelloNewman]

You own nothing. You feel good about yourself now because your chances for upgrade and progression have been improved due to the fact we are losing aiplanes and jobs at ASA. I can tell you now that ASA pilots and the Association wouldn't allow it if the situation were reversed. Thats the difference between you and me. Feel good about it if you must.

I doubt anyone would really turn down growth and upgrades out of "principal". Everyone says the planes are going to go where they need to anyway. You might as well take advantage when things work out in your favor. I have yet to see anyone turn down an upgrade out of principal.

 

[ohplease!]

You own nothing. You feel good about yourself now because your chances for upgrade and progression have been improved due to the fact we are losing aiplanes and jobs at ASA. I can tell you now that ASA pilots and the Association wouldn't allow it if the situation were reversed. Thats the difference between you and me. Feel good about it if you must.

it already happened and we did take the planes/jobs and the association did allow it. Ask the folks at Comair.

 

[SkyWstman]

As far as scabs go, since many are saying that since Skywest pilots are flying ASA planes on ASA routes they are scabs, does that mean American pilots are scabs too for flying TWA planes on TWA routes?

 

[Firehoser]

I just laugh

I just laugh at some of the posts on this board. Does ALPA really think they can define the labor market? Ok, lets run with that - assume that ALPA can somehow engineer a national seniority list and somehow get a national contract with all current carriers - ALPA's wet dream. Would ALPA be able to define the labor market then?

Only for a short time. As with any company labor costs would rise over time and labor being the largest cost center and pilot compensation taking up the majority of that, pilots would contribute the most to this increase in operating expenses. Over say an 8 year period, operational costs would rise to the point where a market opening for a new carrier(s) will be created. At this point one or more new non-unionized regional carriers will start operating with new equipment, operational guarantees and even if the pay scales are exactly the same, significantly lower labor costs. This would enable the new entrants to undercut all other carriers in the system and steal business away from them. And the cycles of boom, concessions and bankruptcies will start all over again.

This is precisely what has happened to the majors with LCCs over the last two decades but ALPA is too dumb to recognize the pattern. Their "economic experts" (full well having access to market analyses, and market history trends which argued otherwise - ask me, I will post the links) convinced the local units that because profits were at an all time high, their companies could afford the extravagent increases in compensation.

Well the market forces came home to roost after Sept 11th in the form of the worst down cycle and the only carriers to avoid bankruptcy were American, whose pilots agreed early to wage cuts, and Continental who due to a simple stroke of luck didn't suffer the losses other mainline carriers did. As to Delta, US Airways, United, Northwest and Comair, they are now working under work rules WORSE than their contracts of 15 years ago. The only way to avoid this inevitability is to work WITH the company and become LESS GREEDY, keeping your operating costs within competitive range of any new market entrant. Will ALPA ever learn the lessons of history? No. Analyses by MIT and other reputable institutions are forecasting another signficant profit boom and then an even larger down cycle than the one we are just coming out of. Will ALPA units like ASA's MEC consider the next down cycle (which MIT forecasts has an 11 year period) in their negotiations? No, they will convince the rank and file the company can afford the contract without offering any analyses and without presenting any hard numbers. They will simply say "Trust us!" and hope the rank and file doesn't study industry history.

ASA's MEC is thus making precisely the same mistakes: Skywest is significantly profitable, and ALPA National is telling ASA MEC the company can afford the increases - its just like the 1990s with the majors: the situation is so similar its eerie.

ALPA has elected a new President who thinks that he can restore compensation by beating his collective breast and throwing a temper tantrum by having ASA go on strike. Skywest Inc. owns the gates at Hartsfield and the hulls. Expect them in the event of a strike to declare Chapter 7, and liquidate the airline expeditously so Delta can route other carriers into Atlanta to cover the transition, transfer the hulls to Skywest Airlines, which in turn will result in a huge drop in unit costs due to all the first year pay scales coming on line. Skywest will then rebuild Atlanta, and because their unit costs are so low, successfully bid for the majority of the flying currently on RFP becoming the largest regional carrier in the United States. At that point their sheer size will give them significant pricing leverage they didnt' previously have and their profits margins will grow.

What's cheaper, that or putting your money down an uncompetitive rathole for the next five years or so until you have to declare bankruptcy anyway or cutting your losses now and rebuild a stronger, much more competitive airline right in time for the next big profit cycle when the majors will suck your pilots up keeping the average pay seniority low, thus keeping you competitive for winning even more business? If I were Jerry Atkins, its precisely what I would do.

"He who refuses to face the facts of history will ultimately be victimized by history."

ALPA will never understand that the market forces in play are largely bigger than all of us and it membership will never understand how masterfully they are being manipulated to serve the egos and the agendas of a few. Skywest if you want to unionize, go right ahead, I actually think it would probably be a good thing for you to do but avoid ALPA like the plague - form your own internal union.

 

[sweptback]

ASA's MEC is thus making precisely the same mistakes: Skywest is significantly profitable, and ALPA National is telling ASA MEC the company can afford the increases - its just like the 1990s with the majors: the situation is so similar its eerie.

We're not asking for industry-leading rates. However we would like to see payrates slightly above currently successful airlines like CHQ, XJT, and SKW. I don't think 1-2% above that is going to make us that much less competitive.

ALPA has elected a new President who thinks that he can restore compensation by beating his collective breast and throwing a temper tantrum by having ASA go on strike. Skywest Inc. owns the gates at Hartsfield and the hulls. Expect them in the event of a strike to declare Chapter 7, and liquidate the airline expeditously so Delta can route other carriers into Atlanta to cover the transition, transfer the hulls to Skywest Airlines, which in turn will result in a huge drop in unit costs due to all the first year pay scales coming on line. Skywest will then rebuild Atlanta, and because their unit costs are so low, successfully bid for the majority of the flying currently on RFP becoming the largest regional carrier in the United States. At that point their sheer size will give them significant pricing leverage they didnt' previously have and their profits margins will grow.

While I'm sure this would be the wet dream of about 30-50% of the SkyWest pilots (cool, instant upgrade thanks to those greedy ASA pilots!), I think you drastically underestimate how slowly the Chapter 7 process goes. Everything must go through the courts, and even if it took 3 months to get it finalized, that's 3 months of struck work that can't be flown. That would be enough to bankrupt SkyWest and kill Delta.

 

[Arrow11]

Great post Firehoser, well written, thoughtful and analytical, did you post on FI by mistake?

 

[Arrow11]

We're not asking for industry-leading rates. However we would like to see payrates slightly above currently successful airlines like CHQ, XJT, and SKW. I don't think 1-2% above that is going to make us that much less competitive.



While I'm sure this would be the wet dream of about 30-50% of the SkyWest pilots (cool, instant upgrade thanks to those greedy ASA pilots!), I think you drastically underestimate how slowly the Chapter 7 process goes. Everything must go through the courts, and even if it took 3 months to get it finalized, that's 3 months of struck work that can't be flown. That would be enough to bankrupt SkyWest and kill Delta.

I think Firehoser's argument is that what would stop Delta using other DCA carriers and reflowing their flying through ATL? Isn't that what happened when Comair went on strike?

 

[Firehoser]

ALPA's sinister plan?

Here is the link for this post so you have the full context:

http://www.ainonline.com/issues/08_01/08_01_comairstrikepg60.html

Here is the quote from Duane Woerth:

"Despite far reaching improvements in pay and work rules, the Airline Pilots Association failed to achieve its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike. Billed by ALPA President Duane Woerth as "a crusade to recognize regional pilots as "real airline pilots" rather than de-facto trainees for major airlines, the Comair negotiations were to become a watershed event in reshaping how people think about and compensate pilots," according to Woerth.

If, he reasoned, the costs associated with flying regional airplane proportionately equaled those of mainline equipment, major carriers would stop transferring routes flown by DC-9s and 737s to affiliates flying regional jets. " (emphasis added)

If we take this at face value, the intent of ALPA National in pushing regional units to pattern-bargain and consistently raise the bar is soley to make regional flying so expensive to the major carriers that they will take back regional flying!

If that is your goal Mr. Woerth, what about the career regional ALPA members in good standing, paying out dues every year to have their careers protected and enhanced? What will become of their jobs? - The years of seniority they have invested in their companies? Do they not deserve EQUAL representation and protection?

Well Mr. Woerth, you have in some respects already reached that goal in many areas . In a presentation by George Hamlin of Global Aviation Associates at the 2002 US Regional Airline Conference, he points out that when measured on a per seat basis, regional pilot pay is twice that of the majors on some platforms This is significant as most all airlines measure their operating costs not on an hourly basis but on a cost per available seat mile. Here are some of the comparisions:
Type Flight crew annual salary per seat
MD-88 $1312
737-800 $1307
757 $1147
757-400er $ 833
DL 777 $ 906
CRJ 70 $ 1070
CRJ 50 $ 1424

Here is the link for the above analysis: http://www.intervistas.com/4/presentations/ScopeClausesIsEndInSight.pdf

As we can see on a per seat basis regional airline pilot pay is just as expensive or more expensive on approximately half of the aircraft currently flying. And remember, these are 2002 figures before the majors gained significant pay reductions in bankruptcy. Thus the gap is even smaller today - is it any wonder that Delta negotiated 90 seat rates with their pilots? Of course not, with the reductions in wages, it makes more economic sense today to have that flying at mainline rather than the regionals. Great job Mr. Woerth, one down and many to go.

"ALPA failed in reaching its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike"

Really? How many of you rank and file pilots had a chance to debate this goal and submit your opinion in a systematic way to ALPA National that the goal of raising regional pilot compensation to the point where the majors would take back your jobs was in fact in your best interest and should be the goal of every regional MEC?

"a crusade to recognize regional airline pilots as 'real pilots'.

How about representing regional airline pilots as real pilots Mr. Woerth instead of bargaining chips to further mainline pilots careers? How about stopping your attempts at overtly influencing / pressuring the local MECs and selling them your agenda and simply let them represent the local interests of THEIR constituents rather than the interests of ALPA National or "raising the bar for other ALPA units?"

When is ALPA nationally and locally going to become a representative service to the pilots rather than a national business catering to the aims of a few?

 

[JRMANNED]

It's funny. ALPA says they are against a certain group like FREEDOM SCABS. Yet, once they pay ALPA money, ALPA says -Welcome Freedom! Idiots

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here is the link for this post so you have the full context:

http://www.ainonline.com/issues/08_01/08_01_comairstrikepg60.html

Here is the quote from Duane Woerth:

"Despite far reaching improvements in pay and work rules, the Airline Pilots Association failed to achieve its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike. Billed by ALPA President Duane Woerth as "a crusade to recognize regional pilots as "real airline pilots" rather than de-facto trainees for major airlines, the Comair negotiations were to become a watershed event in reshaping how people think about and compensate pilots," according to Woerth.

If, he reasoned, the costs associated with flying regional airplane proportionately equaled those of mainline equipment, major carriers would stop transferring routes flown by DC-9s and 737s to affiliates flying regional jets. " (emphasis added)

If we take this at face value, the intent of ALPA National in pushing regional units to pattern-bargain and consistently raise the bar is soley to make regional flying so expensive to the major carriers that they will take back regional flying!

If that is your goal Mr. Woerth, what about the career regional ALPA members in good standing, paying out dues every year to have their careers protected and enhanced? What will become of their jobs? - The years of seniority they have invested in their companies? Do they not deserve EQUAL representation and protection?

Well Mr. Woerth, you have in some respects already reached that goal in many areas . In a presentation by George Hamlin of Global Aviation Associates at the 2002 US Regional Airline Conference, he points out that when measured on a per seat basis, regional pilot pay is twice that of the majors on some platforms This is significant as most all airlines measure their operating costs not on an hourly basis but on a cost per available seat mile. Here are some of the comparisions:
Type Flight crew annual salary per seat
MD-88 $1312
737-800 $1307
757 $1147
757-400er $ 833
DL 777 $ 906
CRJ 70 $ 1070
CRJ 50 $ 1424

Here is the link for the above analysis: http://www.intervistas.com/4/presentations/ScopeClausesIsEndInSight.pdf

As we can see on a per seat basis regional airline pilot pay is just as expensive or more expensive on approximately half of the aircraft currently flying. And remember, these are 2002 figures before the majors gained significant pay reductions in bankruptcy. Thus the gap is even smaller today - is it any wonder that Delta negotiated 90 seat rates with their pilots? Of course not, with the reductions in wages, it makes more economic sense today to have that flying at mainline rather than the regionals. Great job Mr. Woerth, one down and many to go.

"ALPA failed in reaching its ultimate goal in the minds of the pilots and union officials alike"

Really? How many of you rank and file pilots had a chance to debate this goal and submit your opinion in a systematic way to ALPA National that the goal of raising regional pilot compensation to the point where the majors would take back your jobs was in fact in your best interest and should be the goal of every regional MEC?

"a crusade to recognize regional airline pilots as 'real pilots'.

How about representing regional airline pilots as real pilots Mr. Woerth instead of bargaining chips to further mainline pilots careers? How about stopping your attempts at overtly influencing / pressuring the local MECs and selling them your agenda and simply let them represent the local interests of THEIR constituents rather than the interests of ALPA National or "raising the bar for other ALPA units?"

When is ALPA nationally and locally going to become a representative service to the pilots rather than a national business catering to the aims of a few?

BINGO! We have a winner.

I believe ALPA is now on a push to "hold the line" at the regionals while simultaneously underbidding the regionals on 70-90 seat flying at the mainline level, so as to "recapture" the flying. When a mainline group underbids the regionals to take flying, it is called "recapturing". If a regional does the same, it is called "stealing". The double standards continue.