My sixth year view of AirTran

[Espalda Mojado]

I'm on my third airline and 8 years out of college and just started over again making 30K last year. I'll break 80K in '07 if I fly my current schedule on my equipment with the DH and INT'l per diem. It will probably be my 10th year in the industry before I break the six figure mark flying widebodies at CAL on 3rd year pay from the right seat. I try not to look back and wine about how long it has taken but rather enjoy the moment. I'm very cautious about the future but think that as the airlines continue to climb out of their holes that our labor contracts will once again rise with the tide.

IAHERJ

People like you who are willing to fly widebodies for $30K/year are half of the problem. The other half are the senior farts who sell the rest of the pilot group down the river in concessions. Labor will never get back what it has lost, and you will be looking for another $30K/year job when you get furloughed in the next downturn.

Management laughs and says :"You dumb pilots ain't got the ballz. Pay raise? Strike? Like I said......NO BALLZ!"

 

[pilotyip]

Saluki and Palomino stop dealing in reality this is a pilot board. The non-reality of this board is no one in country works harder than pilots, no one has a worse QOL and everyone makes more money than a pilot.

 

[Caveman]

It's not an apples to oranges comparison, but when I retired from the Marine Corps 9 years ago I was the senior enlisted Marine in a 3000 man unit. I had 20 years experience, a ton of responsibility and I made about $38K. My second year as an FO at CMR I made more than that and the demands of the job were miniscule by comparison.

I know a few doctors and lawyers and some of them do pretty well. I know a few pilots too and some of them do pretty well also. Most of the folks I know in either group make a reasonable living but none of them make anywhere near $200K except for one doctor. He's a trauma surgeon that has been a partner in a practice for almost 40 years.

I don't want to get into a discussion about who's worth what. We all get what the market will bear but anyone living outside a major metro area making $100K is doing significantly better than the vast majority of their neighbors. YMMV.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Thats the problem

Your were enlisted in the military with no education, I was at one time enslisted you join and serve to do just that serve. We decided to become pilots to fly and because it was a good living. If you think 38 K flying a jet is great so be it. I quess coming from living in the mud to 38 K, it does look good. Why compare what we do to a MBA etc. You just cant. I hope you like 38K nothing like selling out short. In the business world you neg. for your selary, good thing we don't do it in our business, you guys would sell us out.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Dudes, my wife is an MBA (am I sleeping with the enemy?) and we do not live on Easy Street or in "aristocracy". She does in fact make more than me, but she does not make any where near what the doctors or lawyers in her family make. Also, some buddies who I went to school with are lawyers and they make enough to live large in NYC. Then again they are all with big firms, and I have not seen their W2's. I am guessing they are doing better than low 100's though.

Anyway, I thought this thread was about Da Tranny?

 

[737 Pylt]

People like you who are willing to fly widebodies for $30K/year are half of the problem. The other half are the senior farts who sell the rest of the pilot group down the river in concessions. Labor will never get back what it has lost, and you will be looking for another $30K/year job when you get furloughed in the next downturn.

Management laughs and says :"You dumb pilots ain't got the ballz. Pay raise? Strike? Like I said......NO BALLZ!"

That about sums it up! We (as pilots) will never learn.
Also, if I can add to that......When the junior guys turn senior, the attitude will be, "hey, it happened to me, so deal with it."
SIGH!

737

 

[propjob27]

People like you who are willing to fly widebodies for $30K/year are half of the problem.

Totally disagree with you there. As a new hire at CAL, he had no say (ie, vote) at all in their current pilot contract. Those who are to "blame" for sh i t t y first year pay at CAL are all those who were on the property at the time, and voted 'yes' to the present contract.

As a new guy, he had no choice. I'm sure CAL was better than his last job, and any move up is a move up. All we can hope for is that in the future, he may vote No to any contract he thinks is substandard.

 

[Caveman]

Your were enlisted in the military with no education, I was at one time enslisted you join and serve to do just that serve. We decided to become pilots to fly and because it was a good living. If you think 38 K flying a jet is great so be it. I quess coming from living in the mud to 38 K, it does look good. Why compare what we do to a MBA etc. You just cant. I hope you like 38K nothing like selling out short. In the business world you neg. for your selary, good thing we don't do it in our business, you guys would sell us out.

I never compared what we do to being an MBA and I don't think $38K is a great salary. I said that a 2nd year FO was paid more than a senior enlisted Marine with 20+ years of experience. IMO the Marine had a lot more responsibility on his shoulders and worked a heck of a lot more than the FO. The disparity in pay was used to make a point. There are many professions that don't get paid nearly what a relatively uneducated pilot does. Everyone is touting how much lawers and doctors make, but both of those examples REQUIRE graduate school. Flying an airplane, even at a major airline, does not.

Nobody is saying pilots are overpaid. Nobody is suggesting we accept concessionary contracts. All of us should be looking to improve industry compensation. Some of us have looked around and understand that compared to the rest of American society many pilots are doing pretty well. Not spectacular in most cases, but pretty well nonetheless.

BTW, go work on your grammar and spelling before you start lecturing me about my lack of education. The sentence structure in that paragraph is atrocious. Also, don't start accusing me of selling out. I've walked a picket line in this business. Have you?

 

[pilotyip]

As to the college degree, it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. College degrees have become universal with the, "pay your fee get your B places" that the correlation between those with a degree and those without becomes undistinguishable.

 

[Lear70]

As to the college degree, it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. College degrees have become universal with the, "pay your fee get your B places" that the correlation between those with a degree and those without becomes undistinguishable.

Undistinguishable?

You forget to mention general grammar, speaking, and negotiating skills, not to mention an overall appreciation for art, music (other than popular rap, rock, or countrY), and the ability to hold a conversation about something other than their limited social circle of experience.

Oh yeah, and that pesky little ability to understand politics and vote effectively... or vote at all. What was that study about the parallel between a college education and someone's tendency to vote?

There's a lot more to a 4-year degree than just "paying your fee".

 

[pilotyip]

College degree not necessary

Lear70 those are good reasons to go to school, but they having to do with flying an airplane. I know too many people without college degrees who are among the finest people I have ever associated with. The WWII pilots did not have college degrees, guys like GW Bush I, and George McGovern; they did an unbelievable job. No a college degree does not make the person. Besides why would anyone want to talk about anything but flying and airplanes?

 

[Ben Thare]

Glad that someone brought up the correlation between education and pay. Here’s a thought: Management probably realizes that pilots with “degrees” in airport landscaping or aviation studies (or no degree at all) don’t have a lot of alternatives (i.e., leverage) when it comes time for a showdown. It’s this job or…..what? What’s worse, there are thousands of star-struck ATP’s waiting at the door to take your place for less than you’re making. No, you “don’t need no stinking” degree to fly for the airlines. But if you have no alternative in terms of skills or education, you will be far more willing to take what they are willing to give. I'm not slamming anyone on the basis of their education. It just is what it is ( regardless of Bill Clinton's definition of 'is'). If I were hiring, I’d sure be inclined to fashion a ‘captive’ crew force, as well. It’s just business…supply and demand.....nothing personal.

 

[Lear70]

That's true, it makes me glad I have a 2nd degree in Computers and have 3 other skill sets I developed in college, including being a sous chef, a mechanic, and real estate.

That's what makes it easy for me to be millitant... I can walk away and immediately do something else to support my career. That's what makes me a little ambivalent about what the company pulls, although I get a little upset when I hear my coworkers talk "concessions" or even "current book".

I can always vote "no" and not worry about supporting my family. Heck, I make more money at home working on my cars and selling them and the parts on eBay than I do at work on 1st year F/O pay (or 2nd for that matter). My take-home for last month on 80 hours of credit was $3,000. I made that same amount working 5 days rebuilding a head and replacing a turbo then flipping the car on eBay.

Only two of those careers make having a college degree a plus, especially the real estate work; makes it easier to converse with clients intelligently.

 

[chris69]

MGySgt's and SgtMaj (E-9's) of today generally have 4 year degree's these days if not advanced degrees. In the past decade targeted pay raises have significantly increased compensation levels of senior NCO's and technical specialists like Warrant Officers due to their marketability in the civilian sector. According to the 2006 pay scale, a 20 year E-9 (could be 37/38 years young) EARNS $4717.80 in base pay, $272.26 in subsistance and $928 in housing before local adjustments (upwards for high priced areas) for a total of $5,918.56 per month (or $72K per year)- and that's before any special pays. Retire and make half base pay on retainer until 60 and find a new career. You aren't officially retired until after 60.

 

[Caveman]

MGySgt's and SgtMaj (E-9's) of today generally have 4 year degree's these days if not advanced degrees. In the past decade targeted pay raises have significantly increased compensation levels of senior NCO's and technical specialists like Warrant Officers due to their marketability in the civilian sector. According to the 2006 pay scale, a 20 year E-9 (could be 37/38 years young) EARNS $4717.80 in base pay, $272.26 in subsistance and $928 in housing before local adjustments (upwards for high priced areas) for a total of $5,918.56 per month (or $72K per year)- and that's before any special pays. Retire and make half base pay on retainer until 60 and find a new career. You aren't officially retired until after 60.

The pay has definitely increased in recent years and that's a good thing.

 

[afhercdriver]

Hey Caveman, It's George HW Bush and he did have a college degree.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/gb41.html

Just wanted to make sure the correct information gets out. I don't think we are going to solve this debate on FI. The have nots are going to say it shouldn't be required and the haves will want it. Personally, I think it should be required.

 

[afhercdriver]

Sorry Caveman, Wrongly accused. I should have addressed my reply to pilotyip. Even MBAs make mistakes!

 

[USARET]

Your were enlisted in the military with no education, I was at one time enslisted you join and serve to do just that serve. We decided to become pilots to fly and because it was a good living. If you think 38 K flying a jet is great so be it. I quess coming from living in the mud to 38 K, it does look good. Why compare what we do to a MBA etc. You just cant. I hope you like 38K nothing like selling out short. In the business world you neg. for your selary, good thing we don't do it in our business, you guys would sell us out.

What an idiot! In addition to your poorly written post you are also terribly misinformed. Many of the enlisted men serving in our armed forces have a college education. Most of them obtained that degree while defending morons like you. In the future since it looks like your formal education stopped at the 6th grade I would suggest using the spelling and grammar check feature offered on this web board.

 

[Citrusflyer]

What an idiot! In addition to your poorly written post you are also terribly misinformed. Many of the enlisted men serving in our armed forces have a college education. Most of them obtained that degree while defending morons like you. In the future since it looks like your formal education stopped at the 6th grade I would suggest using the spelling and grammar check feature offered on this web board.

Amen.....maybe lowpayisgreat should go back and get his edumacation.....

 

[IAHERJ]

People like you who are willing to fly widebodies for $30K/year are half of the problem. The other half are the senior farts who sell the rest of the pilot group down the river in concessions. Labor will never get back what it has lost, and you will be looking for another $30K/year job when you get furloughed in the next downturn.

Management laughs and says :"You dumb pilots ain't got the ballz. Pay raise? Strike? Like I said......NO BALLZ!"

My last job was AirTran and I was there for almost 3 years and was holding captain when I chose to leave to go to CAL. I knew what the pay was first year and took quite a hit. Who do you work for and how long have you been in this business. If you are at MESA like your profile hints at then I assume your post was flaim bait.

IAHERJ