My sixth year view of AirTran

[Hagar17]

I'm considering going.

brain surgery, I presume?

 

[whymeworry?]

The medical field is in worse shape than aviation. Just try going through all that hell for the same paycheck you get after six years at AirTran.

That's what the docs want you to believe. Amoungst themselves, they bitch more than pilots do. I'm always reading articles about how hard they work and how the profession is not longer worth it to them anymore. Then, every time I try to make an appointment on a Thursday or Friday... they're off for the weekend! In fact, the whole frigging office takes off friday these days. No wonder they're working hard. They want to make enough moeny to cover their huge nut yet they don't want to put in a normal work week.

I use to feel sorry for these guys workng their asses off but the more I go through life the more I realize they're hardly ever at the office.

 

[scrub]

AirTran is going down. 5 years from now, nobody will know they ever existed.

Why do you say that? Airtran, Frontier, Southwest and Spirit were around in the 90's when the legacies were steamrolling, so they are making money again, thats great! Airlines will come and go so will other business', thats what makes this a great country, CAPITALISM, free market etc. Anyone who sits drooling over their keyboard wishing for the demise of an airline on this forum probably constantly berates their spouse and kids and in general is difficult to be around, personally and professionaly.

 

[AA717driver]

brain surgery, I presume?

"Physician, heal thyself!"

Whymeworry--The doctor's offices are always full because the practice managers keep stuffing the schedule. They aren't in the office because they are outbased to another facility. A urologist friend has to travel to two separate offices on opposite sides of the city to see patients. AND, he has to hit the hospital downtown to do surgeries and rounds.

The bottom line is that two formerly great professions have been watered down by lack of organization (union-type, not clutter-type) and member cohesiveness.

Maybe it would change if Docs refused to treat lawyers and MBA's and we refused to fly them... TC

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Every American is taking a hit

We all bitch about how the pilot prof now sucks. Well look back 15 years ago and compare the medical and law prof to today. They all pay more for school, alot more, will make less in a lifetime and pay way more for mal-pratice. yes they still make good money, but they also come out with 200000 plus in debt. Google salaries, and look up GP's and you will see the US average in about 100000 and a dentist (no speciality for either) makes about mid 90000's. I don't know about you, but putting my hands in someones mouth 8 hours a day is not worth 90K or if you specialize 150000. The fact is the money is gone in flying. Last week there was a story about the number of law graduates. CNN stated that last year there were more grads than ever before, and in the last 10 years the universities produced more lawyers then in the previous 20 years. My buds who went to state law schools are now just making in the 80's (10yrs exp). The stories you hear about the big money comes from the top 10 to 15 law schools. One buddie (ex-army intelligence officer) went to Stanford (ranked #1) and has 150000 in debt and now works for the gov at 700000 a year. His loan payment every month is $1000 for 20 yrs. He has been offered jobs that make 180000 a year but they require him to work about 70 hours. The only way our prof. is going to make a come back is to require that all pilots have degrees, which all other prof do, and the next company that want concessions gets kicked in the ass. When a labor group finally strikes and puts someone under then they will pay us what we have earned, till then we will continue to be asked to take cuts. If you don't like it then go to Fedex or UPS which is a whole different business model. Its time to just say no to 5th year pay being 65000, you can make that selling used cars for gods sake or spend 10000 dollars and get an MBA and you can make that right out of school. Just say no and if the company goes under then move on, its not worth having anyway.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The only profession that has done well over the last few years has been in the executive suite. The MBA's are leading the pack in our new winer-take-all, widening income gap, neo-feudal society.

Welcome to the jungle, baby. It gets worse here every day.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Some more

F9 union has bought off on a consession contract. Capt will take a 2 yr pay freeze while first year pay will be cut from 53hr to 32hr. Why, because the contract is based on the average of 6 airlines, (AAI, Alaska, Jet Blue, Midwest, AWA and ???) and guess what, their salaries are all going down. The average 24 yr old with no exp and fresh out of a state school with an MBA makes 55 a year in Denver. 10 yrs later 100000 if they move up and change jobs. Hell it take 2 to 4 year to make that in our prof after 5 years of exp to get to a LCC. Remember its paint on a jet. So if a better offer comes along move on. The same jet, different paint and better salary. Vote with your feet, don't buy the loyality crap and ride it in. Use your sick time when you want and spend time with your family.

 

[Lowrider717]

Well if you were here at the Tranny six years ago, then you'll remember that it was the same story...same negotiation playbook, same morale problem. Come on guys, it was only 6 years ago. Then we got a pretty decent contract upgrade. Now we just have to fix a few issues in that pretty decent contract and everyone will be drinking the kool aid again. Don't get discouraged just cause the company aint playin ball right now. Stick together, fly safe and they'll figure it out. Don't let em push your buttons!

 

[timmay]

They all pay more for school, alot more, will make less in a lifetime and pay way more for mal-pratice. yes they still make good money, but they also come out with 200000 plus in debt. Google salaries, and look up GP's and you will see the US average in about 100000 and a dentist (no speciality for either) makes about mid 90000's. I don't know about you, but putting my hands in someones mouth 8 hours a day is not worth 90K or if you specialize 150000. The fact is the money is gone in flying. Last week there was a story about the number of law graduates. CNN stated that last year there were more grads than ever before, and in the last 10 years the universities produced more lawyers then in the previous 20 years. My buds who went to state law schools are now just making in the 80's (10yrs exp). The stories you hear about the big money comes from the top 10 to 15 law schools. One buddie (ex-army intelligence officer) went to Stanford (ranked #1) and has 150000 in debt and now works for the gov at 700000 a year. His loan payment every month is $1000 for 20 yrs. He has been offered jobs that make 180000 a year but they require him to work about 70 hours. The only way our prof. is going to make a come back is to require that all pilots have degrees, which all other prof do, and the next company that want concessions gets kicked in the ass. When a labor group finally strikes and puts someone under then they will pay us what we have earned, till then we will continue to be asked to take cuts. If you don't like it then go to Fedex or UPS which is a whole different business model. Its time to just say no to 5th year pay being 65000, you can make that selling used cars for gods sake or spend 10000 dollars and get an MBA and you can make that right out of school. Just say no and if the company goes under then move on, its not worth having anyway.

I come from a family of lawyers and yes there are some that make under 100k but most make significantly more. I have seen my brother make more in one month than I made the whole year. He has been a lawyer for about 7 years and is on pace to bring in well over 500k and he still has time to play golf twice a week.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The only profession that has done well over the last few years has been in the executive suite. The MBA's are leading the pack in our new winer-take-all, widening income gap, neo-feudal society.

Welcome to the jungle, baby. It gets worse here every day.

Correct, CEO's make on average 500 times their average employee's salary; It's good to be the king. Also, doctors face bigger problems than we do, with most Americans medical insurance on the chopping block, they are going to face huge revenue problems. Those corporate CEO's that own the pharmaceutical and insurance companies are going to do extremely well, the doctors, not so much.

 

[Lear70]

Oh God, where to start...

We are about to have a concessionary contract rammed down our throat and no one is stepping up to the plate. Until we hit them in the wallet, expect nothing to change.

That's something I'd better not EVER, EVER hear a NPA BOD or Rep come out and say.

The contract that is sent to the pilots for ratification is a DIRECT result of what the NC is able to get out of the company.

1. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the NC is violating its responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE. Period.

2. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the BOD is violating their responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

3. If the polling numbers show the majority of the pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the MEC Chair is violating his responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

This is not my first rodeo. These are BASIC TENANTS that ALL of these people SWORE AN OATH to perform for their membership. Anything that is put out that is even VAGUELY in conflict with the Wilson Polling data violates the trust and faith of the pilots. Period.

There is no "ramming a concessionary contract" down ANYONE'S throat. The NC and BOD determine what goes to Mem Rat.

Taxi as if the FAA was observing, write up each and every maintenance discrepancy, alert, cabin discrepancy, do not reset CB's, do not test run engines (even if directed by Mx), conduct meticulous pre-flight inspections, do not call for a gate, cleaning, catering. In other words DO YOUR JOB AND NOTHING MORE!!

Many of those, in and of themselves, are illegal work actions. Especially not calling for a gate, cleaning, catering, etc. Those ARE part of your job.

The first ones however, are your FAA-MANDATED responsibility to do. If something's wrong, you call it in. Period. You ALWAYS conduct a thorough preflight. Period. You ALWAYS operate the aircraft as though the FAA were watching, because it's the SAFE way to do it. If that causes delays, so be it.

We have our sights set way too low. I've said it before, I can safely cast my NO vote today.

I'm glad,,, I can, too, if it's concessionary. But I don't believe our elected officials will send anything like that to us for Rat. If anything I'm hearing the exact opposite. Tensions are high, people are frustrated, which is what management wants.

Take a step back, enjoy your family, enjoy the holidays, and realize we're STILL a year or more away from the end game in this. We still have a LOT of tools available to us as a union that we haven't even begun to explore yet.

Stay the course!

The medical field is in worse shape than aviation. Just try going through all that hell for the same paycheck you get after six years at AirTran.

For once I agree with YPF.

My dad and I are the only ones in our family in the aviation field. Most are in medicine with two attorneys. The one doctor (cardio-thoracic surgeon) has been barely paying the bills the last 4 years after he began practicing and is just now starting to have a decent lifestyle. at 40.

The other just spent 8 months without a job after HCA moved in and purchased the hospital and shut it down to elliminate the competition. He's an Anesthesiologist... was making $300k to $400k when he was working but now the market here is flooded with doctors, nurses, etc from the hospital closing. He's going to have to move an hour into the country to get a job at $200k. At 38.

The G.P.'s are struggling to make $150k a year at 35-45... insurance companies are destroying their ability to make money with "negotiated fees" and other such nonsense. All in the name of lower insurance rates, which I'm sure as heck not seeing, my insurance costs go up every open enrollment no matter WHICH company I'm with.

I come from a family of lawyers and yes there are some that make under 100k but most make significantly more. I have seen my brother make more in one month than I made the whole year. He has been a lawyer for about 7 years and is on pace to bring in well over 500k and he still has time to play golf twice a week.

Your family is in the minority.

Corporate Attorneys are making pretty good change, but it takes an inside contact to get one of these jobs (just like a major). VERY few do it on merit alone and if they do, they're one of the really talented attorneys who also makes a killing in the private sector doing high-power criminal defense.

The majority of attorneys doing bankruptcy practice, family law practice (divorce, wills, POA's), and state prosecutors make right around $100,000 a year and work from 7 in the morning until 6 or so at night.

The MBA's are definitely where the money is at. If you want to go back to school, go get your MBA and go back to the airlines on the other side of the fence. You may not have any self-respect left, but at least you'll be set up to be part of the new aristocracy arising from this country for probably the next half-century.

As for me, I'll keep flying, keep fighting to have a decent lifestyle, and enjoy my family as much as possible.

Sorry if I'm rambling, the baby's been sick for a week and gave me whatever he has...

 

[Lear70]

Incidentally, I disagree about upgrades.

People who are getting hired now, based on current aircraft orders, delivery schedule, historic attrition (which is probably going to go higher as previously discussed), will sit in the right seat for about 4 years.

Do the math based on vacancies over the last year compared to aircraft delivery and project out based on currently-proposed deliveries.

It's a lot slower than it's been recently, which is why we need MUCH better F/O rates as well as CA rates, but it's not coming to a screeching halt anytime soon.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Incidentally, I disagree about upgrades.

it's not coming to a screeching halt anytime soon.

Amen to that!

 

[pilotyip]

Lear70 what a refreshing dose of reality. Making $100K per year doing something you like puts you in the upper 5% of income in the US. There are many many people out there who would love to be in that position. You fly airplanes because you like to. BTW how is a marginally profitable company supposed to make big changes?

 

[-9Capt]

There is no "ramming a concessionary contract" down ANYONE'S throat. The NC and BOD determine what goes to Mem Rat.

Tell that to the pilots of Alaska Airlines.


Many of those, in and of themselves, are illegal work actions. Especially not calling for a gate, cleaning, catering, etc. Those ARE part of your job.

Show me where it says that I must do any of that in the FOM.

The first ones however, are your FAA-MANDATED responsibility to do. If something's wrong, you call it in. Period.

The problem is, that is not being done.

 

[-9Capt]

Lear70 what a refreshing dose of reality. Making $100K per year doing something you like puts you in the upper 5% of income in the US.

Reality?

The sad reality is that we've systematically had our contract dismantled over the last 5 years. Management has been using our contract as toilet paper. And in your opinion, because I make over 100K, this is acceptable?

Personally I don't like being taken advantage of regardless of how much I make. Please do us a favor and never apply to AirTran, we have enough limp wristed, company sympathizers already.

 

[instructordude]

brain surgery, I presume?

No, I have been thinking about just being a doctor. You know, the ones you got to in a building when you are sick. Those dudes make some serious change.

 

[80for80]

Oh God, where to start...


That's something I'd better not EVER, EVER hear a NPA BOD or Rep come out and say.

The contract that is sent to the pilots for ratification is a DIRECT result of what the NC is able to get out of the company.

1. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the NC is violating its responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE. Period.

2. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the BOD is violating their responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

3. If the polling numbers show the majority of the pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the MEC Chair is violating his responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

This is not my first rodeo. These are BASIC TENANTS that ALL of these people SWORE AN OATH to perform for their membership. Anything that is put out that is even VAGUELY in conflict with the Wilson Polling data violates the trust and faith of the pilots. Period.

There is no "ramming a concessionary contract" down ANYONE'S throat. The NC and BOD determine what goes to Mem Rat.

You contradict yourself. Sounds like you shouldn't have quit your job flying the mail.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You contradict yourself. Sounds like you shouldn't have quit your job flying the mail.

This coming from a guy/gal who has "80for80" as his screen name!

 

[gt1900]

9Capt.... Alaska had their contract shoved down their throats because they chose to go to binding arbitration, it was thier choice to do that.. BTW.. I believe they also got those $204 per hr pay raises because of binding aribitration... If we don't choose to go to binding arbitration, then guess what, the company can't shove chit down our throats that we don't vote on. You guys are all rediculous. One year ago everyone was saying the legacy's were all gonna die, now, things are turning around and everyone is saying the LCC's are gonna die.. Guess what, there are enough Pax out there for everyone, and predictions show that pax traffic could double by 2020.. I'm not sure if any of you guys know this but the airline industry is very cyclical... We just came from the worst downturn in airline history.. Besides, AAI could lose several million for 4Q and still make more than they did last year. AAI isn't gonna go anywhere in the near future.. Will the AirTran name be around forever? Maybe not, but, I would't expect the same fate as Easter, and Braniff... BTW.. We will get a contract someday. But probably not anytime soon, especially with what is going on at DAL and USAir.. AAI management is just stalling, and really, what do you expect them to do, they are in the business to keep the airline making money. And thats what they are doing. For all you guys who hate S. Kol.... I understand, but remember, he is one of the big reasons AAI paid so little for the 737's... We will get a contract, and it will probably be out of the blue and suprise the hell out of everyone when the TA is agreed to... For now, just sit back, relax, take a deep breath, and continue to fly safe....