My response to SWA package!

[madjack]

Lear,

How much of a raise do the AAI CPs get becoming SWA CPs and what do the SWA FOs with greater longevity get out of the deal?? Can't we all share in the windfall the AAI pilots are getting in this deal...should we share? or do you have to share as per M/B Fair and Equitable standard??

Would the AAI CPs accept pay protection if they became SWA FOs?? They "lose nothing" and may gain better bidding power, QOL, job security, insurance (as per the SWA/SWAPA mailer) etc...As SWA FOs they would be vested in our success and future growth so that they can upgrade and get the big pay raise...or must all that risk be taken by the existing SWA FOs at no cost (and a lot of gain) for the AAI CPs??

 

[redflyer65]

No, they're not. Several of our CA's looked at your pay calculator your union sent. They take a $12k-20k pay CUT to go from AAI 737 CA to SWA 737 F/O, and that's using numbers your union provided.

Not all years of CA's get a pay raise becoming a SWA F/O.

I will admit that I didn't see the packet, but that is completely false..in the most simple of terms using all factual, current data it looks like this..

AAI most senior CA rate 163/hr X 70hr guarantee = 11,410 per month.

SW most senior FO rate 130.24/trip X 87 guarantee = 11,330 per month.

That was as 'straight out of the book' as I can make it. I didn't even open the conversion from TFP to HR can of worms. I understand that both pilots can and sometimes do work more than the minimum, but I just used a simple baseline.

The numbers don't lie, and I didn't skew them. If I used the Sept 26th payrates, it would be even a larger difference.

RF

 

[OldManPilot]

I found the info in the booklet to be direct and helpful. I saw nothing there to get upset about. My wife and I both read the entire thing and found useful information. It took a great deal of time and energy to make each one personal. Thank you SWAPA for sending these out. Again I look forward to the integration.

 

[ASADFW7]

If we both dig in and close our borders as pilot groups we all know AAI has more to not gain then SWA pilots. All further deliveries are going to the SWA side. There is no growth for AAI. The AAI pilots may see the old AAI order list as lost growth, but there are no guarantees in aviation. The SWA pilot group had no growth in prep to buy AAI, yet where does that factor in? Still with no growth AAI is better off being owned by SWA then then old AAI group. The stress of how this will integrate hopefully will soon be lowered. ask spirit, or jet blue if they would rather be owned by SWA than current management, heck ask us airways.

There are 6000 positions outside of the ATL, mco, and mke bases that AAI operates. There are a lot more pieces for AAI to chose from then the AAI current positions. The SWA pilot group already has mco, and mke may close post integration, I do not see hundreds of SWA pilots flooding into ATL over night. I do not care how you slice it, if SWA opens up the borders for AAI pilots out of ATL, that is a big qol gain for aai commuters right there.

 

[Kharma Police]

If we both dig in and close our borders as pilot groups we all know AAI has more to not gain then SWA pilots. All further deliveries are going to the SWA side. There is no growth for AAI. The AAI pilots may see the old AAI order list as lost growth, but there are no guarantees in aviation. The SWA pilot group had no growth in prep to buy AAI, yet where does that factor in? Still with no growth AAI is better off being owned by SWA then then old AAI group. The stress of how this will integrate hopefully will soon be lowered. ask spirit, or jet blue if they would rather be owned by SWA than current management, heck ask us airways.

There are 6000 positions outside of the ATL, mco, and mke bases that AAI operates. There are a lot more pieces for AAI to chose from then the AAI current positions. The SWA pilot group already has mco, and mke may close post integration, I do not see hundreds of SWA pilots flooding into ATL over night. I do not care how you slice it, if SWA opens up the borders for AAI pilots out of ATL, that is a big qol gain for aai commuters right there.

I agree that there might be an exodus of commuters out of ATL, however there will be a huge influx of Southwest FOs who will jump at the opportunity to upgrade in any base available. Commuting to Atlanta from anywhere around the country would be fairly easy and with the number of flights that Gary Kelly has planned out of ATL, lots of potential for captain vacancies.

 

[madjack]

KP,

Asking the SWA pilots to rely on the "POTENTIAL" for lots of CP vacancies in ATL is not sharing the risk of this acquisition. Why should the SWA pilots agree to allow the AAI pilots to get ALL the gains of this acquisition while they assume all the risk?? Who was bought here?? What is in this deal for the SWA pilots to offset the GAINS that the AAI pilots are getting, we have to share the toys as Ty likes to say...

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

No. Seniority is everything in this business. SWAPA didn't construct this merger, the CEO did. Airtran pilots don't owe them anything, the CEO wanted this done. An arbitrator will look it over and hear testimony, and figure out what is actually fair. Seniority is forever.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You are right and wrong General. Money is the reason we all go to work. The SWAPA contract dictates the money. Seniority dicates the where and when you go to work. The real heart of the issue here is that due to the demographic differances between the two groups relative seniority is a moving target. If the AAI pilots are awarded relative as of the snapshot their relative seniority actually improves over time vs where it would have been in a no acquistion scenario because they are a younger group while mine is degraded over time. The value of their career is greatly increased while mine goes down. Upholding everyones career expectations here is impossible because they are imcompatable.
I realize as you have stated ad nauseum that you think this will go to arbitration where the AAI pilots career expectations will be the only ones considered. I guess in your view fair and equitable only applys to one side

 

[Flycatcher99]

KP,

Asking the SWA pilots to rely on the "POTENTIAL" for lots of CP vacancies in ATL is not sharing the risk of this acquisition. Why should the SWA pilots agree to allow the AAI pilots to get ALL the gains of this acquisition while they assume all the risk?? Who was bought here?? What is in this deal for the SWA pilots to offset the GAINS that the AAI pilots are getting, we have to share the toys as Ty likes to say...

Not to mention, all these "potential" gains that AAI folk are saying that SWA folk will gain, will also be gains for AAI folk. So using that argument as a gains for SWA folk not only does not measure up to what AAI folk are getting, but it also details an additional gain for AAI.

And Lear, if you are going to attempt to make the ludicrous argument that some Captains at AAI are taking a pay cut, I would at least start with the pay rates that were not affected by the SWA purchase.

 

[Lear70]

Not to mention, all these "potential" gains that AAI folk are saying that SWA folk will gain, will also be gains for AAI folk. So using that argument as a gains for SWA folk not only does not measure up to what AAI folk are getting, but it also details an additional gain for AAI.

If you're looking for "equal gain", you're not going to find it. If you can get past that and find that *SOME* gains on your side are worth signing off on helping Southwest move forward and compete better in the market place, great. If not, then debating you is rather pointless. I'd be better spent utilizing my time debating someone who isn't already a "NO" vote, regardless of what the outcome is unless it's a pure seniority windfall for SWA pilots at AAI pilots' expense (because an outcome like that is doomed to failure on our side and is such a non-starter our MC won't ever bring it to us - they already promised that - it'll go to arbitration before that happens).

And Lear, if you are going to attempt to make the ludicrous argument that some Captains at AAI are taking a pay cut, I would at least start with the pay rates that were not affected by the SWA purchase.

It's not *MY* argument, it's something our CA's pointed out on our internal message board. I haven't done the math, but I trust a couple of them that have (I think it's only one or two year brackets that the disparity happens and it's for the guys who fly their minimum and go home).

As for the rest, it's ludicrous to use the old rates. They don't exist anymore and can't be rolled back. This point moving forward is all that matters in the real world of how much money they have deposited every month for their flying as an AAI CA versus a SWA F/O. What used to be doesn't matter. What's happening now does.

 

[Kharma Police]

KP,

Asking the SWA pilots to rely on the "POTENTIAL" for lots of CP vacancies in ATL is not sharing the risk of this acquisition. Why should the SWA pilots agree to allow the AAI pilots to get ALL the gains of this acquisition while they assume all the risk?? Who was bought here?? What is in this deal for the SWA pilots to offset the GAINS that the AAI pilots are getting, we have to share the toys as Ty likes to say...

Wow, I'm still quite amazed by the pettiness of you guys. You guys would still probably b!tch if we got stapled........

 

[redflyer65]

As for the rest, it's ludicrous to use the old rates. They don't exist anymore and can't be rolled back. This point moving forward is all that matters in the real world of how much money they have deposited every month for their flying as an AAI CA versus a SWA F/O. What used to be doesn't matter. What's happening now does.

Lear,

I have to completely disagree with you on this. The AAI new contract was completely greased after Gary announced the purchase. Can we agree on that point? I mean you guys were doing the best you could with what you had, but Bob was pulling a Heisman on you guys..and it was going to continue until the absolute last minute.

Question...

If Southwest and SWAPA passed an LOA tomorrow for a 30% pay increase across the board, could we use that with the arbitration panel? It's the same arguement, just on the other side.

How about this..we get a nice pay raise in Sept. It will be either 2 or 3%. Should we able to use those 'new' numbers?

Bottom line...where's the starting point? It has to be Sept. 27th, anything after that has been affected by the announcement.

RF

 

[Flycatcher99]

Lear,

I have to completely disagree with you on this. The AAI new contract was completely greased after Gary announced the purchase. Can we agree on that point? I mean you guys were doing the best you could with what you had, but Bob was pulling a Heisman on you guys..and it was going to continue until the absolute last minute.

RF

Exactly. Look, I'm not trying to agitate, Lear, only making a point. It is disingenuous to compare the SWA payrates against the payrates that you received as a result of the acquisition. Much like it was disingenuous that some AAI guys on here were claiming that the strike vote was irrelevant in comparing a pilot position at AAI versus SWA.

If it makes you feel any better, if it is possible for there to be a pay loss in coming onboard, there is no way SWA would let that happen for you guys.

 

[Flycatcher99]

If you're looking for "equal gain", you're not going to find it. If you can get past that and find that *SOME* gains on your side are worth signing off on helping Southwest move forward and compete better in the market place, great. If not, then debating you is rather pointless. I'd be better spent utilizing my time debating someone who isn't already a "NO" vote, regardless of what the outcome is unless it's a pure seniority windfall for SWA pilots at AAI pilots' expense (because an outcome like that is doomed to failure on our side and is such a non-starter our MC won't ever bring it to us - they already promised that - it'll go to arbitration before that happens).

Only the truly naive will expect "equal gain". And (please don't be offended by this) that is because, in a SWA pilot's estimation, there is no way we can gain as much as you all are by coming onboard here. The problem is that the "SOME" gains you are promising us, don't seem to be very evident in the suggestions some AAI folk are making.

 

[B727Driver]

How happy were the AT guys with their management or company on Sept. 26th?
There were people leaving at a pretty good clip with a strike vote in place.
Seven plus years of no contract and no ‘luv’ there.
Wow, what a difference a day makes.

 

[PCL_128]

Lear, the AAI pilots get immediate gains, the SWA pilots merely "lose nothing" how is that fair and equitbable...don't we deserve immediate gains also (not the distant hope of growth and profit sharing which OBTW the former AAI pilots will share)?

Yes, I believe you do. That's something you should negotiate with your management.

Question...

If Southwest and SWAPA passed an LOA tomorrow for a 30% pay increase across the board, could we use that with the arbitration panel? It's the same arguement, just on the other side.

How about this..we get a nice pay raise in Sept. It will be either 2 or 3%. Should we able to use those 'new' numbers?

You can use any numbers you want. Old, new, made up, it doesn't matter. The arbitrator doesn't care. He's going to be merging seniority lists, not pay scales.

 

[Ty Webb]

You guys who keep beating this drum aren't ever going to convince ANY AirTran guys that our contract negotiations benefitted because of the merger announcement. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and although I'm sure it makes sense to you (not having all of the pieces) that is NOT what happened. We got way LESS than we would have, had we been released by the NMB, which we were finally getting close to. In my case, I got 8% instead of the 15-20% I should have gotten after 6 years, which would have at least kept up with inflation.

For you to keep insisting that the ******************** sandwich we accepted after the announcement was somehow the beneficiary of the merger announcement just makes you look uninformed and foolish.

 

[PCL_128]

There were people leaving at a pretty good clip with a strike vote in place.

Um, no. Average attrition from 2008 forward was 1-2 pilots per month, including medical retirements, deaths, terminations, and resignations.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

I have to completely disagree with you on this. The AAI new contract was completely greased after Gary announced the purchase. Can we agree on that point? I mean you guys were doing the best you could with what you had, but Bob was pulling a Heisman on you guys..and it was going to continue until the absolute last minute.

He probably would have, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on how much it factors into the SLI talks. I asked the MC about that, and they said that, to the extent that SLI talks will compare income pre- and post-merger, the new numbers are being used.

Question...

If Southwest and SWAPA passed an LOA tomorrow for a 30% pay increase across the board, could we use that with the arbitration panel? It's the same arguement, just on the other side.

How about this..we get a nice pay raise in Sept. It will be either 2 or 3%. Should we able to use those 'new' numbers?

Yes, and maybe, as far as it's been explained to me. Once the lists were certified and negotiations began, everything was "frozen" for negotiating points (as far as I understand the process from talks I've had with our MC and MEC).

Again, to the extent that comparing incomes will matter in the SLI discussion, as some have pointed out, there is a rather large discrepancy in income between a SWA pilot and AAI pilot. In dollars, it's likely the largest disconnect in merger history, but in percentage it's fairly similar to what a Colgan CA was making compared to a CRJ900 CA at PCL or MSA. In that acquisition/merger (and in other mergers/acquisitions), the career expectations for income was certainly a factor, but not the largest player.

I expect it will be similar here, except that you actually might get more mileage with our Merger Committee (who actually will be LIVING with the new income) with that argument than you would from an arbitrator, just looking at recent precedent and decisions. I could be wrong though, it's happened before.

 

[Shemya]

An observation

As an outside person looking in I am a bit amazed there is not more discussion of McCaskill-Bond. Clearly that legislation changed airline mergers forever. One person’s opinion to the detriment of the SWA pilots in this merger.

 

[Lear70]

Only the truly naive will expect "equal gain". And (please don't be offended by this) that is because, in a SWA pilot's estimation, there is no way we can gain as much as you all are by coming onboard here. The problem is that the "SOME" gains you are promising us, don't seem to be very evident in the suggestions some AAI folk are making.

I'm not offended by that statement, you're arguing passionately, not rudely, so it's all good. Hopefully my statements come across similarly... :beer:

Unfortunately, I can't promise you anything, I can only go on the growth that our MC, MEC, and Scheduling Committee tell us has to happen pretty quickly if we pick our aircraft frequency (how much each airframe flies per day) to where yours is. (Most of us already fly 80+ hours a month; can't get more flying out of us so if the planes fly more, we need more people.)

If we pick up our STATION frequency to our international destinations (which has been stated repeatedly by your management), we'll also need more people. Maybe we lose some lower-yield domestic cities (although I don't think so.. if our yields are good enough to those cities that we've kept them - yours will be better), but overall I doubt we'll lose more city pairings than we gain.

I'm *HOPING* that Southwest realizes the money gain disparity (which is where I think some of the SWAPA rhetoric is pointed) and steps in to help on the financial end in the immediately-near future with you guys to help "grease the wheels", in addition to whatever might come out of the Merger Committee.

But you can't think that we'd come on here and tell you how much seniority we're willing to give up in order to make it all go down smoothly, can ya? We just can't have that discussion openly right now... sometime in the future over beers when the dust settles, I'm sure people will tell you what they were hoping for and what was their minimum "happy" point. In many cases, they might get one, or both, or might not even get either one, you just never know.

You gotta have faith it will all work out, or it will drive you crazy!