My response to SWA package!

[Bob Dylan]

Be sure to read all Lear70's posts. Including the ones just prior to the buyout where he was begging for a staple.

If I were a Southwest pilot, busted my arse to get there, got the 737 type and all the prepping for a very challenging interview (that many current trannies couldn't pass) I wouldn't accept one single trannie being senior to me.

A straight staple is the fairest integration, since it places all new SWA pilots on the bottom just like every other SWA pilot started. It also fair to make them interview and get the 737 type, but it's doubtful that every tranny could afford the type rating and interview prep so I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Lear70]

Nice post Lear. We don't hear too many folks from the Airtran side acknowledging some of the things you mention.

RF

Thanks. I think you'll find that the VAST majority of us aren't interested in some type of "land grab". We don't want your group so angry that it creates "red book / green book" for decades to come and segmented bases, hostile cockpits, etc, etc. Who wants to work in that kind of atmosphere?

I have faith in our mutual unions and Southwest management to hammer something out that will be fair and minimize angst as much as possible. Lots of possibilities moving forward for us as a company to just about dominate the domestic scene, soon the near-Caribbean, then the world! Muuuhahahah... OK, a little melodrama, but still, I think we're gonna have an even bigger kick-a$$ company!

Enjoy your weekend. :beer:

 

[dicko]

Nothing is forever.

Wanna bet ? I'd tell you to ask Osama, but .... :uzi:

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Did you completely miss this part of my statement?

"and don't want to give the otherside anything in return"

What do the Southwest pilots gain in this SLI? Fair and equitable cuts both ways. I'm hoping for a well thought out response..

The future gains for the whole company have been stated ad nauseum by GK and repeated here. It's not that we don't want to give you anything, but the only thing we have to give on is seniority and we'd like to keep as much of that as possible, so would you if you were in our position. It's pretty safe to say though that no AT pilot wants to take something that's not theirs or harm any WN pilot's position in the ISL. It is understandable that AT pilots would expect to stay in the seats of the airplanes that they are bringing to the deal.

We might feel a little differently if it was SWAPA that went to WN mgmt and suggested the buyout because they wanted to share the luv with some of their peers. Instead, your mgmt made the decision to buy us and they are forcing you to "share your toys". I can see how some of you are envious, unfortunately, that envy turns into jealousy and resentment. Instead of being happy for another's good fortune, you are disappointed that in your view, you're not getting anything out of the deal. If you have that much faith in GK and the culture, I'd trust GK when he says you won't be harmed and I'll trust him to stay true to his word that we'll be merged and one big happy family in the end.

BTW, personally I think the opportunity for WN pilots to get the most out of this deal was missed on Sept. 27th of last year when this was announced. That would have been the time to go to the powers that be and owns the check book to "encourage" them to grease the skids to help this go as smoothly as possible. I don't believe that was the MO of your previous union leadership though and they may not have felt it necessary. Now you are stuck trying to get blood from a turnip. I truly hope for all our sakes that mgmt plans on stepping in this week to "aid" in negotiations. It may not be what some/any of us expect, we can only wait and see. I'm not expecting anything, we're only half-way through the direct negotiations time frame, if there is going to be anything of sustance, it won't come until the middle of Aug.

 

[General Lee]

The fact is that both in career earnings and relative seniority over the length of your career you will win out of this deal no matter how the list is constructed. I can tell you the same is not true for me. Maybe AAI ALPA will send a FEDEX package to my house explaining the loses that I can expect over the course of my career as a result of this acquisition.

No. Seniority is everything in this business. SWAPA didn't construct this merger, the CEO did. Airtran pilots don't owe them anything, the CEO wanted this done. An arbitrator will look it over and hear testimony, and figure out what is actually fair. Seniority is forever.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Thanks. I think you'll find that the VAST majority of us aren't interested in some type of "land grab". We don't want your group so angry that it creates "red book / green book" for decades to come and segmented bases, hostile cockpits, etc, etc. Who wants to work in that kind of atmosphere?

I have faith in our mutual unions and Southwest management to hammer something out that will be fair and minimize angst as much as possible. Lots of possibilities moving forward for us as a company to just about dominate the domestic scene, soon the near-Caribbean, then the world! Muuuhahahah... OK, a little melodrama, but still, I think we're gonna have an even bigger kick-a$$ company!

Enjoy your weekend. :beer:

What the heck Lear, what's a couple hundred extra numbers on top of you? Ah, who cares? Your kids might when you are in LBB 3 XMAS's in a row. Your wife might when you are delayed an upgrade because you missed it by one number and then a downturn starts. Ah, you probably didn't deserve it anyway, that higher number, because those SWA pilots did help the CEO craft the merger and made sure the financing was in place. They did it all, and that means you should give in and give them something in return, like compliance. They like when you do that. (all TIC) Don't fall for it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ivauir]

Hey GL,

Are you on an overnight? How is the hotel? Bed bugs suck don't they?

I'm at home playing xbox with my kids, eating lunch in our jamies. Haven't been to LBB in years, really great people there though, I always have a great overnight.

 

[scoreboardII]

[

QUOTE=Luv2BFlyin;2179300] It's not that we don't want to give you anything, but the only thing we have to give on is seniority and we'd like to keep as much of that as possible, so would you if you were in our position.

We are in that position today, we don't want to be harmed in the out years. AT's younger group of pilots means just that, loss of out year earnings for organic SWA pilots. This disparity needs to be mitigated.

It's pretty safe to say though that no AT pilot wants to take something that's not theirs or harm any WN pilot's position in the ISL.

The feeling is mutual, but the devil is in the details.

It is understandable that AT pilots would expect to stay in the seats of the airplanes that they are bringing to the deal.

No, it is understandable that get to keep the seat your negotiated seniority can hold, right?

I can see how some of you are envious, unfortunately, that envy turns into jealousy and resentment. Instead of being happy for another's good fortune, you are disappointed that in your view, you're not getting anything out of the deal.

Envious? Hardly, we are dismayed by the entitlement attitude of "you want your seat and our contract", absolutely dismayed. No, we are not the White Night riding into town expecting it to "go our way", but the "ALPA has lost no seat" mantra is a poke in our collective eye.

All SWA pilots want is to be neutral/no harm in this deal, that may mean some seniority sacrifice from your side, knowing that end game 5-10-25 years out you still come out ahead. Actuarially, we would then all win, now is that fair? Or do you want SWA pilots to be a neutral to negative on this deal forever?

If you have that much faith in GK and the culture, I'd trust GK when he says you won't be harmed and I'll trust him to stay true to his word that we'll be merged and one big happy family in the end.

Jury is still out, but since a women just got off for "killing" her daughter, anything can happen. Trust is a two way street, we do trust him, but we need some strong "verification".

Now you are stuck trying to get blood from a turnip. I truly hope for all our sakes that mgmt plans on stepping in this week to "aid" in negotiations.

I think the topic will be more along the lines of how can SWA grease your skids to get you to come to the middle ground, I don't think SWA will grease SWAPA in any profound way. Most likely, the greasing will be to both sides. We'll see.

 

[redflyer65]

What the heck Lear, what's a couple hundred extra numbers on top of you? Ah, who cares? Your kids might when you are in LBB 3 XMAS's in a row. Your wife might when you are delayed an upgrade because you missed it by one number and then a downturn starts. Ah, you probably didn't deserve it anyway, that higher number, because those SWA pilots did help the CEO craft the merger and made sure the financing was in place. They did it all, and that means you should give in and give them something in return, like compliance. They like when you do that. (all TIC) Don't fall for it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey Lear...

And it begins. I was wondering how long it would take the Gen/OYS to throw you under the bus for being associated with Southwest. I guess the answer is July 10th, 2011.

Like beginning to a new Era. Welcome to club.

RF

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Hey Lear...

And it begins. I was wondering how long it would take the Gen/OYS to throw you under the bus for being associated with Southwest. I guess the answer is July 10th, 2011.

Like beginning to a new Era. Welcome to club.

RF

Guess you missed this part:

"They like when you do that. (all TIC) Don't fall for it."

 

[Lear70]

I think the topic will be more along the lines of how can SWA grease your skids to get you to come to the middle ground, I don't think SWA will grease SWAPA in any profound way.

That's very possible. The idea occurred to me early on that it might be cheaper to pay protect the AAI side of the fence than the SWA side.

Most likely, the greasing will be to both sides. We'll see.

As long as it doesn't come with motorcycle pants and a ball gag, I'm good with that.

 

[SWA/FO]

That's very possible. The idea occurred to me early on that it might be cheaper to pay protect the AAI side of the fence than the SWA side.

They are all getting raises. Pay protect would be less money.

 

[waveflyer]

the only thing we have to give on is seniority

Well said.

 

[redflyer65]

I'd have to agree.

 

[Lear70]

Hey Lear...

And it begins. I was wondering how long it would take the Gen/OYS to throw you under the bus for being associated with Southwest. I guess the answer is July 10th, 2011.

Like beginning to a new Era. Welcome to club.

RF

Heh heh...

 

[bravodude]

If you're looking for EQUIVALENT gain, you're not going to find it. In just about every integration in the history of aviation, one side has gained more than the other, whether it's increased pay rates, a better retirement plan, what have you. In this example, yes, our MONETARY increase in career potential can't be evened out, there's just not enough money to spread throughout 6,000+ pilots.

That being said, yes, I believe the Southwest pilots should benefit from this transaction. I believe they WILL in the form of increased upgrade expectations, company growth and increased stability, increased profit sharing from increased revenue and cost synergies, etc. Those aren't my claims, those are what GK has told investors time and time again about this deal. As much as your pilots claim to have total faith in him, you also have to have total faith in his projections of future benefit.

As for what IMMEDIATE MONETARY gains SWAPA pilots may gain from this, that's something you'll have to communicate to your NC. It wouldn't surprise me if Tuesday's presentation by SWA management included some monetary incentives to help "grease the wheels" for the SWAPA pilots but, again, there's just not enough money for SWAPA pilots to receive from management that will match what AAI pilots will receive from management for their work over their Southwest career.

Yes, your union negotiated those rates that AAI pilots will work under, but your union will receive dues from us in exchange for negotiating those rates - your new hires didn't have to pay for them in advance as a condition of their employment, and neither should we. That whole argument just doesn't hold up.

In short, SWAPA pilots should definitely benefit from this merger. Protecting your career advancement under the new growth model is something your NC will work out with our MC. Additional compensation is something your NC will be working with your management on.

Anything else just isn't supported by the arbitration process. Hopefully those gains your NC negotiates with SWA management and a more profitable company (according to GK, not me) will be worth it for you to endorse what your NC sends to vote. Only you can decide whether it is or not when the time comes.

How do you know if this is monetary gain to help the SWA pilots, what if this is about monetary gain to help grease the skids for the AT pilots.

 

[madjack]

Lear Said: In short, SWAPA pilots should definitely benefit from this merger. Protecting your career advancement under the new growth model is something your NC will work out with our MC. Additional compensation is something your NC will be working with your management on.

Lear, the AAI pilots get immediate gains, the SWA pilots merely "lose nothing" how is that fair and equitbable...don't we deserve immediate gains also (not the distant hope of growth and profit sharing which OBTW the former AAI pilots will share)?

 

[Bob Dylan]

The AirTran captains are trying to jam one up in the SWA FO. For good measure they are also trying to break one off in them too. Massive pay gains immediately, then stealing the CA seats from pilots who have been at the better company longer.

Staple is the only fair outcome. Some tranny captains will be pissed, but at least it won't destroy the company.

 

[madjack]

Bob,

We live in a world where M/B rules, I am not suggesting a staple but I would expect to share in the IMMEDIATE gains the AAI pilots will achieve not just "lose nothing"...

 

[Lear70]

They are all getting raises. Pay protect would be less money.

No, they're not. Several of our CA's looked at your pay calculator your union sent. They take a $12k-20k pay CUT to go from AAI 737 CA to SWA 737 F/O, and that's using numbers your union provided.

Not all years of CA's get a pay raise becoming a SWA F/O.