Mutiny on Flight 613

[V1cutsrfun]

/11

Ok, so two guys speaking Arabic (doesn't say they were Muslim) are kicked off the plane because a woman got alarmed that they were speaking Arabic, and then everyone else started to panic. Wednsday, they are flown back... on a plane with no incident or act of terrorism. I seemed to have missed the part in the article where these two gentlemen did something wrong.

Could you or would you say the same thing about the terroists of 9/11 just thirty minutes prior to pushback? Look at what that got us. Or did you Forget?

There is nothing more expensive then regret

The filthy liberals will have you believe that islam is a religion of peace....yea right...
Chapter 9 of the Koran discusses the killing of infidels, and waging war in the name of allah against all that cannot be converted....these bastard have been fighting for 2000+ years
If the Hamas, Hezbollah or any other of these ragheads would put down there would be peace. If Isreal put don their weapons, there would be no Isreal

There is nothing redeeming about muslims or arabs.:angryfire

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Muslims/Arabs Against Extremism:
There are many Muslims speaking out against terrorism, unfortunately, not enough. I just watched a video on youtube where Wafa Sultan railed against the Muslims for their extremism:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mAXoDHy3_Ek
There are also numbers of moderate Muslims/Arabs in various countries such as Egypt and Jordan speaking out against extremism.

Our biggest problems, aside from having troops over in the Middle East, are the Royal Family members and wealthy businessmen in Saudi Arabia that donate our oil money to Bin Laden and other terrorist organizations.

How Best To Keep Us Safe:
Profiling does seem to make sense, but it doesn't work. I read a number of articles by anti-terrorism experts, in addition to an MIT article, that explained why.

If you profile, you are picking out a certain, specific set of characteristcs. The terrorists wait, and observe your actions. When they figure out what the profile is, they find ways around it.

One thing that Palestinian terrorists did was to arrange to have a white, married, pregnant, English-only speaking American woman carry a bomb in her checked luggage onto an El-Al flight that was made to explode in flight. Luckily, El-Al security was NOT profiling, and they figured out that she was carrying a bomb, removed it from her luggage, and sent her on her way. If they had profiled, like many of us in the US want, and she made it through the regular security, all of the crew and passengers would be dead now.

The best way to defeat the terrorists at checkpoints is to have RANDOM searches. There is no way the terrorists can work around it, because they have no idea what the search requirements are.

The random search techniques was used when I was in the military. At the checkpoint, they would search every 3rd vehicle, and, at a random time, switch to every red vehicle, then those carrying pets, etc., etc.

Good human intelligence, and random detailed searches, above and beyond the standard security practices are what will make us the most safe.

cliff
YIP

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

V1cutsrfun:

Are you Christian? If so, I would suggest some WWJD.

Muslim is not a religion of war, as Christianity is not a religion of war. Some parts of the Koran talk about killing non-believers, as parts of the Bible talk about killing non-believers.

There are currently, as we can all see, lots of Muslim extremist terrorists who distort the overall meaning of the Koran and are trying to kill non-Muslims (or non-Sunnis or Shiites, even though both are Muslims). There are also, and have been throughout history, Christian extremist terrorists who distort the overall meaning of the Bible and are trying to kill non-Christians (and Christians, as we saw in the OKC and ATL olympic bombings).

People from ANY religion and culture can lose their humanity and wrap their evil actions in the religion of their choice. We should be anti-terrorist, not anti-Muslim or anti-Arab. Being anti-Arab just encourages them to be anti-Western.

I am praying for peace, but if the AF needs me to light up a Mosque with a Hellfire missle to kill terrorists, show me the target, and I'll light 'er up!

cliff
YIP

PS-I try to follow WWJD, but I'm not Jesus, hence the missle firing capability as stated above.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

skiandsurf:
1 line for all "Foreign looking people...terrorists"???

This is why profiling doesn't work, because there will be some security people that assume ALL terrorists will look "foreign looking". The OKC city terrorist bomber was "American looking." My wife is "American looking", but she is a foreigner. Anyone can be a terrorist, as you can read in my post above.

skifishfly and vetteracer:
The framers of our Constitution definitely did NOT have the ACLU in mind, and that was because they added the Bill of Rights. They realized that we, the average citizen, weren't going to be protected enough from the tyranny of the Government and the tyranny of the Majority just with the Constitution. They realized they needed to add a Bill of Rights to specifically NOT let the Government/Majority do stuff that was wrong.

They believed that something like the ACLU would never be needed, because of the legal work they did in creating the Bill of Rights. If they were alive today, they would be aghast at the Fascist state America has become, and they would support the ACLU with a passion.

ACLU stands for "American Civil Liberties Union", and their self-appointed mission is to protect our civil liberties as spelled out in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. If our Government one day wants to take away our guns (I have 4), the ACLU will be fighting for our right to keep them, as stated in the Bill of Rights.

The ACLU is NOT a liberal organization, unless you count the KKK or Neo-Nazis as liberal, for the ACLU has fought to preserve the individual rights of members of the KKK and the Neo-Nazis, as they fight to preserve the rights of ALL Americans.

God Bless You,
cliff
YIP
PS-WWJD?

 

[Jonny Sacko]

How Best To Keep Us Safe:
Profiling does seem to make sense, but it doesn't work. I read a number of articles by anti-terrorism experts, in addition to an MIT article, that explained why.


Ya, that's right sister (not really). El-AL is having troubles with that too. That's why you would get slammed against the wall and questioned. I'm calling my lawyer....Shut up

 

[wmuflyguy]

I do not have a problem with racial profiling for security purposes, but If there is racial profiling, It should occur at the security checkpoint and the ticket counter, not by the uninformed masses at the airplane.

Say a young middle eastern man approaches the ticket counter and checks a bag...The bag could be tagged to have extra screening and be hand searched. Also, his ticket should be stamped with the secondary screening code.

He goes to the checkpoint and is subject to regular screning, then secondary screening and then his carryons are hand searched and inspected and he is questioned about his trip. If it all checks out they are allowed to continue, it there is suspicion they are further investigated, bankground checked...whatever else I can't think of.

The security system needs to be retooled and better educated people need to be doing the screening. You can't let the passenegers decide who rides and who doesn't. They should bring their concerns to the attention of the crew and then to a LEO and then it can be handled in the appropriate way.

The majority does not rule on the plane. Do you take a poll as to which alternate you go to? Do you kick a mother with a crying child of the plane cause all the other passengers are irritated? Why should you kick somone off a plane for just speaking Arabic(they only thought that was what they were speaking) and checking his watch(people regularly check watches when waiting for an airplane, look around next time your waiting for you flight home)?

By the way flying out of JFK, there was 4 people speaking Arabic in front of me on the plane, guess what nothing happened.

 

[bri5150]

"For those unfortunate two men to be victimised because of the colour of their skin is just nonsense."

It actually sounds like they were victimised because of their clothing choices and actions, not JUST because of the color of their skin. I bet there were other asians on board.

 

[Gorilla]

About 2 years ago, we had two middle-eastern men removed from our aircraft by the LGA police. It's a long story, but the gist was this - they were overheard while parked at the gate speaking in Farsi by a white woman who knew the language, and she didn't like what she heard. The men were sitting NEXT to each other on an open 3-across, and talking very quietly. She reported this to the #1, who talked with the CA. The CA went back, and point-blank confronted them.

"No, no, we are Pakistani! PAKISTANI"

He talked again to the woman. "Are you SURE they were speaking Farsi? 100% sure?" "Yes, and they were talking about the crewmembers; I heard several words that scared me."

We talked about it a bit, and came to this conclusion - They lied to our faces about who they were. Everything about this setup stank. We called the cops who removed them from the airplane. Between the two of them, they had ONE carry-on gym bag. No checked bags.

To this day I am convinced that they were there to observe crew procedures, and were not an immediate threat. They were simply spies.

 

[wmuflyguy]

About 2 years ago, we had two middle-eastern men removed from our aircraft by the LGA police. It's a long story, but the gist was this - they were overheard while parked at the gate speaking in Farsi by a white woman who knew the language, and she didn't like what she heard. The men were sitting NEXT to each other on an open 3-across, and talking very quietly. She reported this to the #1, who talked with the CA. The CA went back, and point-blank confronted them.

"No, no, we are Pakistani! PAKISTANI"

He talked again to the woman. "Are you SURE they were speaking Farsi? 100% sure?" "Yes, and they were talking about the crewmembers; I heard several words that scared me."

We talked about it a bit, and came to this conclusion - They lied to our faces about who they were. Everything about this setup stank. We called the cops who removed them from the airplane. Between the two of them, they had ONE carry-on gym bag. No checked bags.

To this day I am convinced that they were there to observe crew procedures, and were not an immediate threat. They were simply spies.

Good job, I think what you guys did was 100% correct. The lady understood the landuage and actually overheard what they were saying. You guys checked it out, called the cops and tossed them.

In the article that started this debate, the pax only THOUGHT they spoke arabic and did not over hear them saying anything suspicous. The authorities found that these men were NOT doing anything wrong, after searching the plane and rescreeening them and still refused to let them fly on the flight because their race and language made some people nervous.

 

[AirBadger]

Profiling is a terrible idea, not only because its blatant racism, but because it simply tells potential terrorists what exactly screeners are looking for. What stops a terrorist organization from using a white guy, a black guy, an Asian, hispanic etc etc? Evil cares not about the color of skin, but the person underneath that skin. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine were both white kids with problems, what happens when another pair of white kids with problems finds comfort in extremist Islam? Judging soley by the color of their skin fails at that point when they are sent through the "White Express" line at the TSA checkpoint. This incident on the Monarch flight shows that in this case, profiling didn't work because obviously these gentlemen were not a threat because they were not detained and were flown back on Wednesday without trouble.

Would you be happy if you could be kicked off an airplane because of your skin color? And not by someone with law enforcement authority, but by a bunch of panicing passengers that "thought" the language they couldn't even understand sounded threatening. From the looks of these posts, a lot of you sound like you'd be glad to go back to times of segregation. Heck, why don't we start finding some witches to burn while we're at it?

 

[skiandsurf]

the "White Express" line at the TSA checkpoint.

I am not really implying an "express line". But more expedited. See the 95% regular white guy will still get searched, as will the 80 year old lady. But the 5% "other line" will get the same search, just looked at more closely without delaying the regular line.

Everyone wins. The old lady in a wheelchair will have a shorter line, this not tying up the regular line while the 80 year old lady in the chair explains why she is setting off the alarms with her artificial knee. The "other" (blacks, mexicans, arabs) will have a smaller line too. Remember they only make up about 5% of the traveling public. Wouldnt you like if they had a line for "put in your home address". You would have a line to yourself.

 

[wmuflyguy]

We are never going to be 100% safe, a determined terrorist, and these guys are, will find a way. It is sad but true.

How secure are the roads that go around the airport property? It doesn't take much for someone to get a hold of a rocket of some kind and blast at us while we take-off or land. This seems like a more likely threat now than sneaking an explosive on a plane.

Hell in 2003 some fisherman fishing in the water next to JFK, washed ashore and wandered onto the taxiway's. They couldn't find their way out and had to flag down the polic themselves after 70 minutes wandering around.

 

[414Flyer]

Profiling is a terrible idea, not only because its blatant racism, but because it simply tells potential terrorists what exactly screeners are looking for. What stops a terrorist organization from using a white guy, a black guy, an Asian, hispanic etc etc? Evil cares not about the color of skin, but the person underneath that skin. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine were both white kids with problems, what happens when another pair of white kids with problems finds comfort in extremist Islam? Judging soley by the color of their skin fails at that point when they are sent through the "White Express" line at the TSA checkpoint. This incident on the Monarch flight shows that in this case, profiling didn't work because obviously these gentlemen were not a threat because they were not detained and were flown back on Wednesday without trouble.

Would you be happy if you could be kicked off an airplane because of your skin color? And not by someone with law enforcement authority, but by a bunch of panicing passengers that "thought" the language they couldn't even understand sounded threatening. From the looks of these posts, a lot of you sound like you'd be glad to go back to times of segregation. Heck, why don't we start finding some witches to burn while we're at it?

It looks like you are more concerned with feelings and emotions and "happy", more than anything else. Profiling is not racism, it is allocating limited resources, to the more statistically likely people to commit terrorist. Its not about segregation and witch burnings, although nice try at a red herring.

To me, it folly to suggest that everyone deserves the same level of scrutiny. Some people just should be looked at a bit more, in addition to the standard level of security everyone should go through. Yes, maybe some feelings may get hurt, oh well they should get over it. A young male from countries Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, deserve some extra attention than most others will.

 

[skiandsurf]

If a bank is robbed at gun point and the witness describe the thief as a "white male, bald head, and mid 40s"....does it make since to stop an 80 year old lady or an 18 year old muslim? No. They will only look at those that fit the description.

 

[AirBadger]

If a bank is robbed at gun point and the witness describe the thief as a "white male, bald head, and mid 40s"....does it make since to stop an 80 year old lady or an 18 year old muslim? No. They will only look at those that fit the description.

Thats because the guy commited a crime. What we're talking about here is just assuming that a certain person is going to commit a crime based on their skin color or religion. The two guys on this Monarch flight didn't commit a crime, but they got "prosecuted" anyway by a group of vigilantes who in a state of fear and panic made a dumb decision.