Mutiny on Flight 613

[V1cutsrfun]

/11

Ok, so two guys speaking Arabic (doesn't say they were Muslim) are kicked off the plane because a woman got alarmed that they were speaking Arabic, and then everyone else started to panic. Wednsday, they are flown back... on a plane with no incident or act of terrorism. I seemed to have missed the part in the article where these two gentlemen did something wrong.

Could you or would you say the same thing about the terroists of 9/11 just thirty minutes prior to pushback? Look at what that got us. Or did you Forget?

There is nothing more expensive then regret

The filthy liberals will have you believe that islam is a religion of peace....yea right...
Chapter 9 of the Koran discusses the killing of infidels, and waging war in the name of allah against all that cannot be converted....these bastard have been fighting for 2000+ years
If the Hamas, Hezbollah or any other of these ragheads would put down there would be peace. If Isreal put don their weapons, there would be no Isreal

There is nothing redeeming about muslims or arabs.:angryfire

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Muslims/Arabs Against Extremism:
There are many Muslims speaking out against terrorism, unfortunately, not enough. I just watched a video on youtube where Wafa Sultan railed against the Muslims for their extremism:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mAXoDHy3_Ek
There are also numbers of moderate Muslims/Arabs in various countries such as Egypt and Jordan speaking out against extremism.

Our biggest problems, aside from having troops over in the Middle East, are the Royal Family members and wealthy businessmen in Saudi Arabia that donate our oil money to Bin Laden and other terrorist organizations.

How Best To Keep Us Safe:
Profiling does seem to make sense, but it doesn't work. I read a number of articles by anti-terrorism experts, in addition to an MIT article, that explained why.

If you profile, you are picking out a certain, specific set of characteristcs. The terrorists wait, and observe your actions. When they figure out what the profile is, they find ways around it.

One thing that Palestinian terrorists did was to arrange to have a white, married, pregnant, English-only speaking American woman carry a bomb in her checked luggage onto an El-Al flight that was made to explode in flight. Luckily, El-Al security was NOT profiling, and they figured out that she was carrying a bomb, removed it from her luggage, and sent her on her way. If they had profiled, like many of us in the US want, and she made it through the regular security, all of the crew and passengers would be dead now.

The best way to defeat the terrorists at checkpoints is to have RANDOM searches. There is no way the terrorists can work around it, because they have no idea what the search requirements are.

The random search techniques was used when I was in the military. At the checkpoint, they would search every 3rd vehicle, and, at a random time, switch to every red vehicle, then those carrying pets, etc., etc.

Good human intelligence, and random detailed searches, above and beyond the standard security practices are what will make us the most safe.

cliff
YIP

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

V1cutsrfun:

Are you Christian? If so, I would suggest some WWJD.

Muslim is not a religion of war, as Christianity is not a religion of war. Some parts of the Koran talk about killing non-believers, as parts of the Bible talk about killing non-believers.

There are currently, as we can all see, lots of Muslim extremist terrorists who distort the overall meaning of the Koran and are trying to kill non-Muslims (or non-Sunnis or Shiites, even though both are Muslims). There are also, and have been throughout history, Christian extremist terrorists who distort the overall meaning of the Bible and are trying to kill non-Christians (and Christians, as we saw in the OKC and ATL olympic bombings).

People from ANY religion and culture can lose their humanity and wrap their evil actions in the religion of their choice. We should be anti-terrorist, not anti-Muslim or anti-Arab. Being anti-Arab just encourages them to be anti-Western.

I am praying for peace, but if the AF needs me to light up a Mosque with a Hellfire missle to kill terrorists, show me the target, and I'll light 'er up!

cliff
YIP

PS-I try to follow WWJD, but I'm not Jesus, hence the missle firing capability as stated above.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

skiandsurf:
1 line for all "Foreign looking people...terrorists"???

This is why profiling doesn't work, because there will be some security people that assume ALL terrorists will look "foreign looking". The OKC city terrorist bomber was "American looking." My wife is "American looking", but she is a foreigner. Anyone can be a terrorist, as you can read in my post above.

skifishfly and vetteracer:
The framers of our Constitution definitely did NOT have the ACLU in mind, and that was because they added the Bill of Rights. They realized that we, the average citizen, weren't going to be protected enough from the tyranny of the Government and the tyranny of the Majority just with the Constitution. They realized they needed to add a Bill of Rights to specifically NOT let the Government/Majority do stuff that was wrong.

They believed that something like the ACLU would never be needed, because of the legal work they did in creating the Bill of Rights. If they were alive today, they would be aghast at the Fascist state America has become, and they would support the ACLU with a passion.

ACLU stands for "American Civil Liberties Union", and their self-appointed mission is to protect our civil liberties as spelled out in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. If our Government one day wants to take away our guns (I have 4), the ACLU will be fighting for our right to keep them, as stated in the Bill of Rights.

The ACLU is NOT a liberal organization, unless you count the KKK or Neo-Nazis as liberal, for the ACLU has fought to preserve the individual rights of members of the KKK and the Neo-Nazis, as they fight to preserve the rights of ALL Americans.

God Bless You,
cliff
YIP
PS-WWJD?

 

[Jonny Sacko]

How Best To Keep Us Safe:
Profiling does seem to make sense, but it doesn't work. I read a number of articles by anti-terrorism experts, in addition to an MIT article, that explained why.


Ya, that's right sister (not really). El-AL is having troubles with that too. That's why you would get slammed against the wall and questioned. I'm calling my lawyer....Shut up

 

[wmuflyguy]

I do not have a problem with racial profiling for security purposes, but If there is racial profiling, It should occur at the security checkpoint and the ticket counter, not by the uninformed masses at the airplane.

Say a young middle eastern man approaches the ticket counter and checks a bag...The bag could be tagged to have extra screening and be hand searched. Also, his ticket should be stamped with the secondary screening code.

He goes to the checkpoint and is subject to regular screning, then secondary screening and then his carryons are hand searched and inspected and he is questioned about his trip. If it all checks out they are allowed to continue, it there is suspicion they are further investigated, bankground checked...whatever else I can't think of.

The security system needs to be retooled and better educated people need to be doing the screening. You can't let the passenegers decide who rides and who doesn't. They should bring their concerns to the attention of the crew and then to a LEO and then it can be handled in the appropriate way.

The majority does not rule on the plane. Do you take a poll as to which alternate you go to? Do you kick a mother with a crying child of the plane cause all the other passengers are irritated? Why should you kick somone off a plane for just speaking Arabic(they only thought that was what they were speaking) and checking his watch(people regularly check watches when waiting for an airplane, look around next time your waiting for you flight home)?

By the way flying out of JFK, there was 4 people speaking Arabic in front of me on the plane, guess what nothing happened.

 

[bri5150]

"For those unfortunate two men to be victimised because of the colour of their skin is just nonsense."

It actually sounds like they were victimised because of their clothing choices and actions, not JUST because of the color of their skin. I bet there were other asians on board.

 

[Gorilla]

About 2 years ago, we had two middle-eastern men removed from our aircraft by the LGA police. It's a long story, but the gist was this - they were overheard while parked at the gate speaking in Farsi by a white woman who knew the language, and she didn't like what she heard. The men were sitting NEXT to each other on an open 3-across, and talking very quietly. She reported this to the #1, who talked with the CA. The CA went back, and point-blank confronted them.

"No, no, we are Pakistani! PAKISTANI"

He talked again to the woman. "Are you SURE they were speaking Farsi? 100% sure?" "Yes, and they were talking about the crewmembers; I heard several words that scared me."

We talked about it a bit, and came to this conclusion - They lied to our faces about who they were. Everything about this setup stank. We called the cops who removed them from the airplane. Between the two of them, they had ONE carry-on gym bag. No checked bags.

To this day I am convinced that they were there to observe crew procedures, and were not an immediate threat. They were simply spies.

 

[wmuflyguy]

About 2 years ago, we had two middle-eastern men removed from our aircraft by the LGA police. It's a long story, but the gist was this - they were overheard while parked at the gate speaking in Farsi by a white woman who knew the language, and she didn't like what she heard. The men were sitting NEXT to each other on an open 3-across, and talking very quietly. She reported this to the #1, who talked with the CA. The CA went back, and point-blank confronted them.

"No, no, we are Pakistani! PAKISTANI"

He talked again to the woman. "Are you SURE they were speaking Farsi? 100% sure?" "Yes, and they were talking about the crewmembers; I heard several words that scared me."

We talked about it a bit, and came to this conclusion - They lied to our faces about who they were. Everything about this setup stank. We called the cops who removed them from the airplane. Between the two of them, they had ONE carry-on gym bag. No checked bags.

To this day I am convinced that they were there to observe crew procedures, and were not an immediate threat. They were simply spies.

Good job, I think what you guys did was 100% correct. The lady understood the landuage and actually overheard what they were saying. You guys checked it out, called the cops and tossed them.

In the article that started this debate, the pax only THOUGHT they spoke arabic and did not over hear them saying anything suspicous. The authorities found that these men were NOT doing anything wrong, after searching the plane and rescreeening them and still refused to let them fly on the flight because their race and language made some people nervous.

 

[AirBadger]

Profiling is a terrible idea, not only because its blatant racism, but because it simply tells potential terrorists what exactly screeners are looking for. What stops a terrorist organization from using a white guy, a black guy, an Asian, hispanic etc etc? Evil cares not about the color of skin, but the person underneath that skin. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine were both white kids with problems, what happens when another pair of white kids with problems finds comfort in extremist Islam? Judging soley by the color of their skin fails at that point when they are sent through the "White Express" line at the TSA checkpoint. This incident on the Monarch flight shows that in this case, profiling didn't work because obviously these gentlemen were not a threat because they were not detained and were flown back on Wednesday without trouble.

Would you be happy if you could be kicked off an airplane because of your skin color? And not by someone with law enforcement authority, but by a bunch of panicing passengers that "thought" the language they couldn't even understand sounded threatening. From the looks of these posts, a lot of you sound like you'd be glad to go back to times of segregation. Heck, why don't we start finding some witches to burn while we're at it?

 

[skiandsurf]

the "White Express" line at the TSA checkpoint.

I am not really implying an "express line". But more expedited. See the 95% regular white guy will still get searched, as will the 80 year old lady. But the 5% "other line" will get the same search, just looked at more closely without delaying the regular line.

Everyone wins. The old lady in a wheelchair will have a shorter line, this not tying up the regular line while the 80 year old lady in the chair explains why she is setting off the alarms with her artificial knee. The "other" (blacks, mexicans, arabs) will have a smaller line too. Remember they only make up about 5% of the traveling public. Wouldnt you like if they had a line for "put in your home address". You would have a line to yourself.

 

[wmuflyguy]

We are never going to be 100% safe, a determined terrorist, and these guys are, will find a way. It is sad but true.

How secure are the roads that go around the airport property? It doesn't take much for someone to get a hold of a rocket of some kind and blast at us while we take-off or land. This seems like a more likely threat now than sneaking an explosive on a plane.

Hell in 2003 some fisherman fishing in the water next to JFK, washed ashore and wandered onto the taxiway's. They couldn't find their way out and had to flag down the polic themselves after 70 minutes wandering around.

 

[414Flyer]

Profiling is a terrible idea, not only because its blatant racism, but because it simply tells potential terrorists what exactly screeners are looking for. What stops a terrorist organization from using a white guy, a black guy, an Asian, hispanic etc etc? Evil cares not about the color of skin, but the person underneath that skin. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine were both white kids with problems, what happens when another pair of white kids with problems finds comfort in extremist Islam? Judging soley by the color of their skin fails at that point when they are sent through the "White Express" line at the TSA checkpoint. This incident on the Monarch flight shows that in this case, profiling didn't work because obviously these gentlemen were not a threat because they were not detained and were flown back on Wednesday without trouble.

Would you be happy if you could be kicked off an airplane because of your skin color? And not by someone with law enforcement authority, but by a bunch of panicing passengers that "thought" the language they couldn't even understand sounded threatening. From the looks of these posts, a lot of you sound like you'd be glad to go back to times of segregation. Heck, why don't we start finding some witches to burn while we're at it?

It looks like you are more concerned with feelings and emotions and "happy", more than anything else. Profiling is not racism, it is allocating limited resources, to the more statistically likely people to commit terrorist. Its not about segregation and witch burnings, although nice try at a red herring.

To me, it folly to suggest that everyone deserves the same level of scrutiny. Some people just should be looked at a bit more, in addition to the standard level of security everyone should go through. Yes, maybe some feelings may get hurt, oh well they should get over it. A young male from countries Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, deserve some extra attention than most others will.

 

[skiandsurf]

If a bank is robbed at gun point and the witness describe the thief as a "white male, bald head, and mid 40s"....does it make since to stop an 80 year old lady or an 18 year old muslim? No. They will only look at those that fit the description.

 

[AirBadger]

If a bank is robbed at gun point and the witness describe the thief as a "white male, bald head, and mid 40s"....does it make since to stop an 80 year old lady or an 18 year old muslim? No. They will only look at those that fit the description.

Thats because the guy commited a crime. What we're talking about here is just assuming that a certain person is going to commit a crime based on their skin color or religion. The two guys on this Monarch flight didn't commit a crime, but they got "prosecuted" anyway by a group of vigilantes who in a state of fear and panic made a dumb decision.

 

[AirBadger]

It looks like you are more concerned with feelings and emotions and "happy", more than anything else. Profiling is not racism, it is allocating limited resources, to the more statistically likely people to commit terrorist. Its not about segregation and witch burnings, although nice try at a red herring.

To me, it folly to suggest that everyone deserves the same level of scrutiny. Some people just should be looked at a bit more, in addition to the standard level of security everyone should go through. Yes, maybe some feelings may get hurt, oh well they should get over it. A young male from countries Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, deserve some extra attention than most others will.

Your idea of profiling may not be segregation, but some of these folks want different lines for different types of people based on skin color and religion. That, my friend, is segregation. I do agree that certain people need extra scrutiny, but based on their actions and behavior, not skin color or religion. And some of you guys really are willing to give the TSA even more power. Do you really want that? Being the airline pilots you are, you clearly understand how much of a mess that organization is, do you think they are ready to handle even more power? I certainly don't. I'm going to leave the "extra scrutiny" to the state department, CIA, NSA, FBI, and all of the fine young men and women in the military fighting for us over seas.

 

[414Flyer]

Thats because the guy commited a crime. What we're talking about here is just assuming that a certain person is going to commit a crime based on their skin color or religion. The two guys on this Monarch flight didn't commit a crime, but they got "prosecuted" anyway by a group of vigilantes who in a state of fear and panic made a dumb decision.

Well with that logic, it would have been unfair to have singled out the 9/11 hijackers during the ticketing, security or boarding process, because a crime had not been committed yet.

 

[AirBadger]

Well with that logic, it would have been unfair to have singled out the 9/11 hijackers during the ticketing, security or boarding process, because a crime had not been committed yet.

The system failed to protect us on 9/11 because warnings were ignored, people were ignored, and we had gotten complacent. We could have stopped the OKC bombing if there was a ban on Ryder moving trucks near the federal building, but at the time it just didn't make any sense. Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[pkober]

Were you one the types that complained about NSA "wire tapping"? Did you cheer when the media reported how we are tracking terrorist money?

Just wondering where you stand on those issues.

CLAMBAKE

 

[AirBadger]

Were you one the types that complained about NSA "wire tapping"? Did you cheer when the media reported how we are tracking terrorist money?

Just wondering where you stand on those issues.

CLAMBAKE

While the NSA was found to have broken the FISA laws, our country still needs an organization dedicated to electronic surveillance of potential threats. However, I do believe that these operations should be conducted within the confines of the law. If the government wants to survey citizens without warrants, the citizens should be the ones who get to decide whether to allow that sort of thing or not. And the tracking money thing, everyone knew we were tracking the financial details of terrorists, it's nothing new. Back before 9/11 an article was written about how SWIFT worked with the CIA tracking finances of Bin Laden. Even the administration talked about how they track terrorist finances. If someone doesn't want information leaked, they need to tighten the leash on their employees, because the government knows by now that the media loves to get the big scoop first.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

For everyone's information, I'll say again, profiling does not work!

The airline with the world's BEST security is El-Al. They have the money, time and resources to do anything they want. Do they profile? No. If it was the best security measure, they would do it.

If El-Al does NOT do something, security-wise, we shouldn't either because it's a waste of time and money.

cliff
YIP

 

[Patriot328]

Hi!

If our Government one day wants to take away our guns (I have 4), the ACLU will be fighting for our right to keep them, as stated in the Bill of Rights.

I wouldn't bet on that.

http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Gun Control[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Why doesn't the ACLU support an individual's
unlimited right to keep and bear arms?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]BACKGROUND
The ACLU has often been criticized for "ignoring the Second Amendment" and refusing to fight for the individual's right to own a gun or other weapons. This issue, however, has not been ignored by the ACLU. The national board has in fact debated and discussed the civil liberties aspects of the Second Amendment many times. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]IN BRIEF
The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control. We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership. If we can license and register cars, we can license and register guns. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Most opponents of gun control concede that the Second Amendment certainly does not guarantee an individual's right to own bazookas, missiles or nuclear warheads. Yet these, like rifles, pistols and even submachine guns, are arms. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The question therefore is not whether to restrict arms ownership, but how much to restrict it. If that is a question left open by the Constitution, then it is a question for Congress to decide. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ACLU POLICY
"The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment [as set forth in the 1939 case, U.S. v. Miller] that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms." --Policy #47
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]​

[/FONT]​

 

[V1cutsrfun]

I recently read in the American Journal that 70% off all muslims are in favor of abolishng the constitution in favor of islamic law, while 54% of the born here offspring feel the same.:angryfire

The ACLU will continue the be all things to all people agenda that will protect them, their right to assemble, raise funds and worship allah then plot your freinds and family's death, all beacuse they dont want to offend anyone.

Thomas Jefferson once shot a man on the White house lawn for treason...Supporting islam is a act of treason.

Its time to stand up and do what is right and protect ourselves.

 

[wmuflyguy]

I recently read in the American Journal that 70% off all muslims are in favor of abolishng the constitution in favor of islamic law, while 54% of the born here offspring feel the same.:angryfire

The ACLU will continue the be all things to all people agenda that will protect them, their right to assemble, raise funds and worship allah then plot your freinds and family's death, all beacuse they dont want to offend anyone.

Thomas Jefferson once shot a man on the White house lawn for treason...Supporting islam is a act of treason.

Its time to stand up and do what is right and protect ourselves.

Cite the Journal, approximate date would be helpful too.

 

[Icelandair]

The ACLU is a domestic terrorist organization and should be shut down under RICO statutes. They are a pro gay, pro terrorist, anti God organization that would gleefully tear the crosses off the war memorials.

I say good for these passengers. If the leaders of the country refuse to lead, the people must lead the leaders.

 

[V1cutsrfun]

The ACLU is a domestic terrorist organization and should be shut down under RICO statutes. They are a pro gay, pro terrorist, anti God organization that would gleefully tear the crosses off the war memorials.

I say good for these passengers. If the leaders of the country refuse to lead, the people must lead the leaders.

Very Well PUT

There is nothing redeeming about Muslims, Islam or the Arab world.

 

[V1cutsrfun]

Also it is against Islam to pledge to a country which is not govenerd by islamic law
which ties into what I said earlier....
No doubt the ACLU will protect this as well

 

[V1cutsrfun]

Also it is against Islam to pledge to a country which is not govenerd by islamic law.....which ties into what I said earlier....

No doubt the ACLU will protect this agenda as well

I read it on a dead head in June from a fellow cummuter...

sent twice in error sorry

 

[AirBadger]

The ACLU is a domestic terrorist organization and should be shut down under RICO statutes. They are a pro gay, pro terrorist, anti God organization that would gleefully tear the crosses off the war memorials.

I say good for these passengers. If the leaders of the country refuse to lead, the people must lead the leaders.

Domestic terrorism? Let's not get ahead of ourselves, bud. I don't know what you're talking about shutting them down under RICO statues, they have not broken any of those statues. Go read them and try to pin racketeering and gambling on the ACLU. If the government could shut down the ACLU, they probably would, but since they have broken no law, guess what, they are free to exist. Yeah the ACLU is awkward on some issues, but they have the right to do what they do, just like the KKK, Neo Nazis, AARP, AOPA, NRA etc etc etc. And what do you mean by "pro gay"? Is there something wrong with thinking that being gay shouldn't be considered a reason to have unequal rights? And "pro terrorist"...I have yet to see any actions taken by the ACLU that promotes terrorism. Being based in New York City, I doubt they were smiling on 9/11. Yes, the ACLU is a little far left even for my tastes, but when push comes to shove and the government is taking away your rights, would you rather have the ACLU, or nothing at all?

 

[V1cutsrfun]

Domestic terrorism? Let's not get ahead of ourselves, bud.
Pull your head out of the sand......
And what do you mean by "pro gay"? Is there something wrong with thinking that being gay shouldn't be considered a reason to have unequal rights?

No body and I mean no body said that gays don't have equal rights they have equal rights rights already, which of course isnt good enough, No one said that they could not marry, all they are saying is that you cant marry another dude

And "pro terrorist"...I have yet to see any actions taken by the ACLU that promotes terrorism. Being based in New York City, I doubt they were smiling on 9/11. Yes, the ACLU is a little far left even for my tastes, but when push comes to shove and the government is taking away your rights, would you rather have the ACLU, or nothing at all?

Kruschev said it best: "you will sell us the rope that we use to hang you."
Well we aren't selling rope right now, but the ACLU is paving the way for these individuals so they have a protected sanctuary in which they may commit acts of terror. all the while saying they are doing it for your own good....just to make you sleep better at night.

Congrats hook , line and sinker.....:uzi: