Multi Instrument

[BYUFlyr]

So I guess if your student has his/her PVT AMEL ticket you can give them training in a twin for an instrument rating if you have only a CFII.

I have to confess I don't have any instrument students nor have I had the opportunity to give instrument training in a multi-egine airplane, just thought it was a good topic to jump into and give my opinion.

I actually wouldn't even consider giving instrument flight training in a multi unless the "student" was a competent multi-rated pilot (I don't have enough multi experience to feel safe pulling an engine on someone who didn't know what they were doing).

Welcome to the dark side.....

Fly safe!

 

[frascaflyer]

Hey! I already played that trump card waaaaay back at the beginning of the thread!

Ah, who cares - just get all the freakin' certificates already. All I've gotta do is get the 15 hours PIC in a multi. THAT's the expensive part.

FF

 

[BYUFlyr]

Hey! I already played that trump card waaaaay back at the beginning of the thread!

FF,

You are absolutely right, I can't take the credit for that one. I should've quoted your post.

I don't think the argument was for any practical use, it was just a fun topic to discuss.

Sorry for taking all the glory for your trump card....

Fly safe!

 

[frascaflyer]

You better be sorry! My flight school's estimation of me is based in part on how many flightinfo arguments I can demonstrate that I've won on my own merits. I'm trying to get hired here and you're not helping!

Just kidding. You're right, it's all academic anyway, but don't academic discussions fall under that "continuing education" mandate for CFIs?

Back to my beer.

FF

 

[Ralgha]

According to the regs, and CFII (with no airplane ratings) can only give ground and simulator instruction. No muli or single instruction.

The applicable regs have already been quoted in this thread, but here they are consolidated:

61.195 (b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating

The aircraft ratings in that reg refers to aircraft ratings that the instructor must hold, not that the training is for an aircraft rating. Notice that the meat of the reg makes no reference to what type of training, whereas the next part for instrument training does.

61.195 (c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

Part (c) actually has no bearing on the issue. Everybody seems to agree that the instructor must be a "double-I". However, even if it did, part C still requires that the instrument rating on the instructor certificate be appropriate to the cat/class. There is no ambiguity unless you try to force it to be there.

If this was the same case with the CFII rating then the FAA would not allow a pilot to test for a license he/she would not be able to use. If I can not teach instruments in a multi-engine airplane without an MEI, then a CFII would not be able to give any instrument flight training without a CFI(ASEL) or MEI.

The CFII is not useless, they can give ground and simulator instruction. Now sure, most people here would find that useless, because you wouldn't be able to build that oh so valuable flight time as a time building CFI. Realize that the CFI was not intended, and should not be, a time builder. The CFI should be someone who cares about teaching people, and such a person would not be turned off by not getting flight time. According to the letter of the law, a CFII can not give instruction in an aircraft.

 

[minitour]

The CFII is not useless, they can give ground and simulator instruction.

Exactly!

A bit off topic...but not really...sort of...in a way.

An AGI is authorized to provide instruction for any certificate or rating in "this part" (Part 61). So...does that mean as an AGI/IGI, I can give ground instruction in a multi-engine airplane simulator towards a certificate or rating dealing with multi-engine airplanes?

I would think yes...since that's what the regs says, but I've been told no since I don't hold the CFI-ME.

Any takers on that one?

-mini

 

[frascaflyer]

Sorry Ralgha, incorrect. The language is not specific enough to guarantee the interpretation that you have given.

To wit:

"61.195 (b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating"

What's the applicable category and class rating? Does category and class apply to instrument instruction? I don't know. Category probably does - your pilot and flight instructor certificates specify "Instrument Airplane". But class? Is single or multi appropriate to instrument instruction? I don't know. Let's ask the FAA.

"A. Single and/or Multiengine Ratings. According to
FAR Part 61 , flight instructors who hold an
“instrument-airplane” rating only on their flight instructor
certificate are authorized to give instrument flight instruction
in single and/or multiengine airplanes for instrument
certification, provided they hold single and/or multiengine
ratings on their pilot certificate."

Aha!

How about that second reg?

"61.195 (c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

As BYU suggested, it's all in the way you parse the sentence. English doesn't separate clauses all that clearly, so this reg can mean:

"must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate" + "[must hold a] pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

or it could mean:

"must hold an instrument rating appropriate to category and class on his/her flight instructor and pilot certificates."

Again we ask what category and class is appropriate to instrument training? My pilot certificate says "Instrument Airplane". What does yours say? Still, I'm not so sure. Let's ask the FAA.

"Q&A-641 October 5, 2004

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate - Instrument Airplane only and wants to give instrument flight training on avionics in a multiengine land airplane (for example in a Cessna 310). The training that the flight instructor will be giving is not for the purpose of furtherance of a pilot certificate or rating. The training is merely for educational/informative purposes. The instrument flight training will be on: Air Traffic Control Clearances and Procedures - Holding Procedures; Navigation Systems - Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and DMC ARCs; and Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are the flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and flight experience the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 310?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b), (c), and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
&
Commercial Pilot Certificate Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land
or

ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land

The flight instructor would only have to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310 if the training was for the furtherance of a certificate or rating. Since you specifically stated in your question that the training was not for the furtherance of a certificate or rating but was for merely for educational/informative purposes, then the answer is no, the flight instructor would not need to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310.
{Q&A 641} "

I see a pattern here. Do you? Regulatory wording that requires interpretation + FAA interpretation = Binding regulation. CFIIs can instruct in airplanes. Period. This simulator and ground instruction only is bogus. I can do that, and all I've got is an AGI and IGI.

FF

 

[frascaflyer]

mini -

Sure you can give ground instruction for a multi-engine rating with an AGI. You can give ground instruction for *anything* in part 61, as you said, with an AGI. That includes instrument ratings. (Before you ask, I got the IGI because I heard somewhere that the wording of the AGI reg was a screwup and they really want to require an IGI for instrument ground instruction, so a change might be forthcoming. Plus it's only an extra $75 or so.) You can even give ground instruction for airships, helicopters, gliders, *everything*. I had a helicopter question on my AGI written.

So it's all legal. Much like the CFII debate above, though, the practical wisdom of me providing lighter-than-air ground instruction to someone - considering I know bupkis about LTA regs - is about the same as me pulling an engine on someone, even though they're a certificated multi pilot. In the airplane I'm worried about becoming a smoking hole in the ground when the guy steps on the wrong rudder. On the ground I'm worried about my signature being in the logbook of some hot air balloon pilot who breaks some reg I've never heard of, or someone who drifts over P-51.

FF

 

[minitour]

mini -

(Before you ask, I got the IGI because I heard somewhere that the wording of the AGI reg was a screwup and they really want to require an IGI for instrument ground instruction, so a change might be forthcoming. Plus it's only an extra $75 or so.)

Ditto

*edit*
And thanks for clearing that up...

-mini

 

[Ralgha]

Sorry Ralgha, incorrect. The language is not specific enough to guarantee the interpretation that you have given.

To wit:

"61.195 (b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating"

What's the applicable category and class rating? Does category and class apply to instrument instruction? I don't know. Category probably does - your pilot and flight instructor certificates specify "Instrument Airplane". But class? Is single or multi appropriate to instrument instruction? I don't know. Let's ask the FAA.

What's the applicable category and class? Are you kidding me? So, if I hold a private pilot certificate, with ASEL and instrument ratings (no MEL), then I could fly a twin as long as I never looked out side? Look on your pilot certificate, your instrument rating is not specific to a class.

"A. Single and/or Multiengine Ratings. According to
FAR Part 61 , flight instructors who hold an
“instrument-airplane” rating only on their flight instructor
certificate are authorized to give instrument flight instruction
in single and/or multiengine airplanes for instrument
certification, provided they hold single and/or multiengine
ratings on their pilot certificate."


Aha!

That's not the letter of the law.

How about that second reg?

"61.195 (c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

As BYU suggested, it's all in the way you parse the sentence. English doesn't separate clauses all that clearly, so this reg can mean:

"must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate" + "[must hold a] pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

or it could mean:

"must hold an instrument rating appropriate to category and class on his/her flight instructor and pilot certificates."

It holds the second meaning. If it held the first, then it would say "must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and a pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class

Again we ask what category and class is appropriate to instrument training? My pilot certificate says "Instrument Airplane". What does yours say? Still, I'm not so sure. Let's ask the FAA.

"Q&A-641 October 5, 2004

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate - Instrument Airplane only and wants to give instrument flight training on avionics in a multiengine land airplane (for example in a Cessna 310). The training that the flight instructor will be giving is not for the purpose of furtherance of a pilot certificate or rating. The training is merely for educational/informative purposes. The instrument flight training will be on: Air Traffic Control Clearances and Procedures - Holding Procedures; Navigation Systems - Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and DMC ARCs; and Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are the flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and flight experience the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 310?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b), (c), and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
&
Commercial Pilot Certificate Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land
or

ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land

The flight instructor would only have to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310 if the training was for the furtherance of a certificate or rating. Since you specifically stated in your question that the training was not for the furtherance of a certificate or rating but was for merely for educational/informative purposes, then the answer is no, the flight instructor would not need to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310.
{Q&A 641} "

This is from the Part 61 FAQ, which holds no legal weight at all.

I see a pattern here. Do you? Regulatory wording that requires interpretation + FAA interpretation = Binding regulation. CFIIs can instruct in airplanes. Period. This simulator and ground instruction only is bogus. I can do that, and all I've got is an AGI and IGI.

FF

I agree, but the letter of the law says otherwise, and personally I think allowing anyone who doesn't hold the cat/class rating on their CFI ticket to teach in an airplane is BS. Before you go an do it, you should probably talk to your insurance company as well, I'm sure they'd love to have a CFI without ASEL OR AMEL giving instruction.