Multi Instrument

[nosehair]

So, what's it gonna be, Whitesnake...I mean Whiteknuckle, ya gonna do it?

 

[white knuckle]

I will help my friend out in his twin while he is knocking the rust off, while I get the few ME PIC hours I need for the MEI. I will then get the MEI and we won't have to worry about any of this and I will then start putting dual received in his logbook. Thanks for all the replies. This board is a really good resource for questions except for the few A^*&*& I see raise their head in some posts. Thanks for all the good info.

 

[Kream926]

would it not be a good idea to be at least a CFII MER (just a MER) to give instruction in it. just seems right to me. what y'all think?

 

[DC8 Flyer]

For those that say you can do it without a MEI. I gotta ask. How do you conduct training in a twin without teaching multi engine procedures? Do you just fly around on one engine?

The regs make it perfectly clear. An instructor must have BOTH a category and class rating on BOTH his/her commercial/atp and CFI tickets. No way around it.
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11190.html

The above is bogus. The questions were simple, can I give "instruction" to someone who already has a Multi Instrument ticket, if I only have a CFII and a ASMEL Comm ticket. Well of course you can, you're not providing instruction for furtherance of a rating etc etc, all your doing is sitting there being a "safety" pilot.

Right from the regs:

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

 

[BYUFlyr]

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

This clears all doubts: All he needs is an instrument rating (CFII) and a pilot certificate (not neceseraly an instructor certificate) that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft.

Maybe the punctuation is a little ambigious, but there is no doubt that it's how the FAA interprets it.

 

[nosehair]

This clears all doubts: All he needs is an instrument rating (CFII) and a pilot certificate (not neceseraly an instructor certificate) that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft.

Maybe the punctuation is a little ambigious, but there is no doubt that it's how the FAA interprets it.

!!!...Incredible!! In your quote of this regulation, you insert in parenthasis, "not neceseraly an instructor certificate", where the actual words are, " and flight instructor certificate".

You must be a news reporter.

 

[BYUFlyr]

You must be a news reporter.

What are you like 8 or something? Do we tolerate name calling in this playground?

Anyways....

The grammatical structure of the regulation leaves room for ambiguity in its interpretation. Therefore, there must be one interpretation that trumps all others. In this case it is safe to say that the FAA trumps every other CFI's interpretation of the regulation.

However, I'll go ahead and elaborate on why I agree with the FAA's interpretation.

The regulation applicable to the original question would be 61.195 (c) [not (b)], which reads as follows: "(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

Consider the grammatical usage of the second bolded phrase: "must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft"

If the sub phrase, "... that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft..." also applied to the flight instructor certificate it would have to read, "... that are appropriate to the category and class of aircraft...."

Even if you do not agree with grammatical usage of "is" and "are", as it applies to the above regulation, it is how it is written and it is how the FAA interprets it. If a chief flight instructor interprets it differently then a CFII can not teach in a multi-engine aircraft at his school, but if I am an independent CFII I am only accountable to the FAA and other interpretations are, therefore, irrelevant.

 

[BYUFlyr]

FF, I have, for many,many years, thought of the II in twins the same as you.

However, 61.195(b) says:"A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class ratings."

How do you get around that?

61.195(b) applies to flight training in pursuit of aircraft ratings not instrument ratings.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

61.195(b) applies to aircraft ratings not instrument ratings.

BYU I see what your saying and you raise a good point. However I dont think you can only read one part of that reg alone. 61.195(b) tells us what we must have to provide "instruction" ie AMEL Comm and an MEI to teach in multis, where subsection (c) tells us we must have an instrument rating on both commercial and instructor tickets (duh you have to have an instrument rating anyway to be an instructor) to teach instruments. Since the language on the tickets is "instrument airplane" the category and class is moot, unless you have a multi restriction thats is VFR only??

I see your argument but I dont think you can pull subsection (b) away from subsection (c) and voila you can give instrument instruction in a twin without haveing an MEI.

Going out on a limb here, if the FAA truly had the intent of allowing instructors to provide instrument instruction in multis to people who already possesed a VFR multi ticket I think the reg wouldnt have been written more clearly. IE, subsection (c) would read something along the lines...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
(i) A flight instructor providing instruction for the addition of an instrument rating to an existing Multi Engine Airplane License need not posses a Multi Engine Instructor Certificate"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But again, I could be totally wrong, it has been years since I have instructed and dont even have my CFI,CFII and MEI anymore. Just tyring to point out how I see the regs as being read.

 

[BYUFlyr]

BYU I see what your saying and you raise a good point. However I dont think you can only read one part of that reg alone. 61.195(b) tells us what we must have to provide "instruction" ie AMEL Comm and an MEI to teach in multis, where subsection (c) tells us we must have an instrument rating on both commercial and instructor tickets (duh you have to have an instrument rating anyway to be an instructor) to teach instruments. Since the language on the tickets is "instrument airplane" the category and class is moot, unless you have a multi restriction thats is VFR only??

I see your argument but I dont think you can pull subsection (b) away from subsection (c) and voila you can give instrument instruction in a twin without haveing an MEI.

I see your point, but I believe the italic wording, Aircraft ratings and Instrument Rating (notice the capitalization on the latter) in (b) and (c) respectively, applies to the type of training being conducted as opposed to a categorical break down of the instructor's qualifications. Paragraph (b) does not even mention instrument flight training, only flight training. Paragraph (c), however, speaks of instrument flight training exclusively. There is a difference between instrument flight training and flight training. Your example in which the AMEL pilot has a VFR limitation (either because he/she does not posses an Instrument Rating or he/she opted to exclude the instrument maneuvers during the checkride) and wishes to remove it falls into instrument flight training. An ASEL pilot pursuing an AMEL ticket, with or without instrument privileges, can not receive training from a CFII who does not hold an MEI because he/she is receiving flight training (which may include instrument training).

In summary: flight training (b) includes the training given in order for the recipient to act as PIC in that category/class; additionally, instrument flight training (c) does not include flight training and can therefore be conducted by an instructor certified to give instrument flight training who is not certified to give flight training in that category/class (as long as he/she and the student are appropriately rated).

e.g.: A CFII who does not hold a CFIA can not give instrument flight training to a student pilot in a Cessna 152, but he can give instrument flight training in the same airplane or even in a multi-engine seaplane to a private pilot as long as both student an instructor are appropriately rated for that aircraft.