Mormons and Frisbee

[ATL2CDG]

I'm highly suspicious of anyone who says to me, "see that guy in the big chair...he knows best, just do what he says."

[sarcasm]

Actually, his name is Yahweh and it's called a 'throne'.

[/sarcasm]

I'm not just suspicious of him... I ignore him completely; it's safer that way.

 

[Super 80]

First, show me where in the OT or NT (or the Book of Mormon for that matter) is says that prophets must be perfect? No LDS prophet has ever claimed to be perfect, either as a man or as a leader.

Well here you go big guy. Right from the Expositor's Bible Commentary.

The role of the prophet in Israel. Moses is the prime OT prophet. He was called by God to lead Israel from Egypt and as God's spokesman to communicate the law that was to govern Israel's lifestyle. God warned Israel not to turn to the occult sources consulted by pagan nations (Dt 18:9-13). He promised to send his own spokesmen to Israel, spokesmen who would meet certain tests. Each prophet (1) would be an Israelite (Dt 18:15), (2) would speak in the name of the Lord (vv. 20-22), (3) would be authenticated by predictions that came true (v. 22), and (4) would deliver a message in harmony with written revelation (Dt 13:1-5). Anyone claiming to have a message from God but not meeting these tests was a false prophet and could be safely ignored (Dt 18:22).

 

[ATL2CDG]

Super 80:

I didn't see anything contradicting my point that prophets don't have to be perfect in your mindless ranting...

Try again...

 

[Super 80]

DT 18:21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Now about those horses...

 

[ATL2CDG]

Now about those horses...

Seriously... what is it with you and these horses? You are completely failing to make any point. You are randomly spouting quotes from this 'source' and hearsay from so-so, but you're not making ANY sense.

 

[Super 80]

ATL2CDG,

I read the passage in the book of Mormon. It clearly referenced horses. Supposedly, and I say so because no one can verify what is on the plates that Joseph Smith "found," the book of Mormon reveals that some people came over from Israel two thousand years ago with horses and acted just like they did with whole kingdoms and wars and such like the Israelites had in the Promised Land. All this and not one trace of their civilizations or any evidence for their existence unlike that of ancient Israel.

If you want to believe Joseph Smith could translate some plates with what are called hieroglyphics on it through a stone go right ahead. I don't know of any reliable source other than Joseph Smith that can make sense of it. If it truly is a style of writing, then it ought to be able to be interpreted by a reliable linguist. So far as I know, the plates cannot be read by anyone. I don’t even think they are accessible. I’ve been to the Temple grounds in Salt Lake City. If the plates were available to be viewed, it wasn’t posted anywhere on the property.

Furthermore, what I have read before on Mormonism suggests some fatal flaws in their doctrine that emanates from the book of Mormon when compared with Christianity and the Bible. Therefore, I do not think Joseph Smith was a proper prophet. He got it wrong. In addition, that means the book of Mormon, the stone and the plates did not come from God. It means the angel Moroni or how ever you spell it is a cruel hoax and eleven million adherents are being duped.

On a related fact, Salt Lake City is the capital of America's home brewing industry.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Re: the cult test

1. Is it reluctant to reveal all its doctrines on request? Yes.
2. Is it closed to inside/outside criticism? No.
3. Does it place curses on those who disagree? No.
4. Does it have practices or doctrines that are not found in the Bible? Yes.
5. Has it made prophecies that have not come to pass? Yes.
6. Have its doctrines changed a lot over the years? No.
7. Does it discourage or forbid its members to read other religious literature? No.
8. Does it claim divine authority to interpret the Bible for you? No.
9. Does it teach that the Bible can not be understood apart from its own literature? No.
10. Does it teach that its own traditions are of equal value with the Bible? No.
11. Does it tell you the Bible is dangerous to read for yourself? No.
12. Are any of its doctrines contradicted by the Bible? No.
13. Does it say that the Bible 'contains' the truth, but is not 'the whole truth?' Yes.
14. Does it teach that all other Christian groups are false? Yes.
15. Is dissent discouraged, penalized, or punished? No.
16. Do the call all dissent 'sin, pride, or rebellion?' No.
17. Are members required to sever all ties with the past, or with family or previous religious friends? No.
18. Does it have a totalitarian or dictatorial structure? No.
19. Are its members financially exploited? No.
20. Is fear a primary motivating factor in its teaching? No.
21. Does it teach that there is no salvation outside itself? No.
22. Does it say that the sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient, but that you must pay the price for your own sins? No.
23. Does it ask you to pay for its prayers for dead loved ones? (what the???) No.
24. Does it profit from the sale and use of icons, a practice forbidden by the second commandment? No.
25. Does it teach that Jesus was one of many saviors, avatars, or gurus? No.
26. Does it teach that Jesus was just an angel, or some highly evolved human being? No.
27. Does it have hidden, secret knowledge or rituals available only to its members. Yes.
28. Does it offer something other than, or in addition to Jesus Christ as our Savior? No.
29. Is attendance at its rituals mandatory, with d@mnation being the price of your failure? No.
30. Does it make artificial distinctions between 'levels' of sin? No.
31. Does it teach that you must 'expiate' (pay the price for) your own sins, thus negating the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ? Somewhat.
32. Does it tell you to confess your sins to dead people in order to obtain forgiveness? No.
33. Does it promote worship, or veneration of the dead? No.
34. Does it claim its leader's pronouncements are perfect, irrevocable, and unchangeable? No.
35. Does it teach that sin can only be forgiven by its own representatives? Yes.
36. Are its moral teachings based on its own code of law instead of the Bible? No.
37. Does it keep you paying for years for the spiritual benefit of deceased loved ones? No.
38. Does it tell you to pray for, or get baptized for the dead? Yes.

 

[johnpeace]

Super80

I didn't quite get the point either...

Was it that there are references to horses in the BOM and that such would indicate that it's fraudulent?

I'm not that familiar with the history of the mormon writings, but a search on Google (gotta love Google) reveals:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/m/morm...mat=Long&q1=horse&restrict=All&size=First+100

 

[ATL2CDG]

ATL2CDG,

I read the passage in the book of Mormon. It clearly referenced horses. Supposedly, and I say so because no one can verify what is on the plates that Joseph Smith "found," the book of Mormon reveals that some people came over from Israel two thousand years ago with horses and acted just like they did with whole kingdoms and wars and such like the Israelites had in the Promised Land. All this and not one trace of their civilizations or any evidence for their existence unlike that of ancient Israel.

If you want to believe Joseph Smith could translate some plates with what are called hieroglyphics on it, through a stone go right ahead. I don't know of any reliable source other than Joseph Smith that can make sense of it. If it truly is a style of writing, then it ought to be able to be interpreted by a reliable linguist. So far as I know, the plates cannot be read by anyone. I don’t even think they are accessible. I’ve been to the Temple grounds in Salt Lake City. If the plates were available to be viewed, it wasn’t posted anywhere on the property.

Furthermore, what I have read before on Mormonism suggests some fatal flaws in their doctrine that emanates from the book of Mormon when compared with Christianity and the Bible. Therefore, I do not think Joseph Smith was a proper prophet. He got it wrong. In addition, that means the book of Mormon, the stone and the plates did not come from God. It means the angel Moroni or how ever you spell it is a cruel hoax and eleven million adherents are being duped.

On a related fact, Salt Lake City is the capital of America's home brewing industry.

You find that passage in question and I'll be more than happy to discuss it. If you can't quote specifics, then I don't feel it can be included in the argument.

Various persons other than Joseph Smith saw and handled the plates. Even those witnesses who left the Church (for whatever reasons) at in time NEVER contradicted the existence of the plates. And yes, you can't see the plates. The prophet can't see the plates. Once Joseph completed the translation, the LDS church states they were taken to heaven by Moroni. Something noteworthy for those interested: many non-church scholars have studied the Book of Mormon and most state that there are various styles of writing (meaning different authors) for the various books within. They state that no one could fake these literary differences.

And on your third paragraph, rather than reading third-party literature about the church, why don't you read its texts and publications. Talk with a bishop or ward mission leader. Rather than listening to those who claim to know all about the evil Mormons, why don't you study the evil Mormons directly. Also, given that you don't even know the details of his life or dead (as evidenced above), I doubt you stand qualified to judge Smith a 'proper prophet' or not.

Lastly... SLC the brewing capital? Uhm, okay. LDS compose only about 35-40% of the SLC proper population and certainly don't control local government and commerce (like one can find in Southern Baptist-dominated dry counties throughout the South). How in the world is this at all 'related' to the discussion at hand??

 

[Super 80]

I didn't quite get the point either...

Was it that there are references to horses in the BOM and that such would indicate that it's fraudulent?

The horse is not native to America. The book of Mormon as written by Joseph Smith includes this glaring inaccuracy.

You have to love the access the internet provides and especially the ease of Google searches.

I stand corrected that the horse was brought over, I only read one reference about horses being prepared possibly for a chariot which in itself is a hoot. The passage in Alma 18 sounds like what I remember.

I'd love to see the archaeological digs for these kingdoms. I'm sure there's plenty of artifacts to show how their agriculture was in place rather than the Native American Indian's style of agriculture.

It's also rewarding to see how this ancient civilization influenced Native Indian cultures.

What I'm saying is the book of Mormon is a bunch of hooey.