More propoganda from Freddy

[capt. megadeth]

Exactly. Freddy thinks the pilots are too dumb to realize that.

Unfortunately, alot of pilots are.

Dave,
Oh, I didn't mean that they wouldn't.....I am sure they won't get anything. First, it's a freeze....then "oh no, that's not enough", then go all the bennies....they must teach it in Management 101. I just meant that the pilots may want growth so there are people below them which may equate to better schedules, QOL. That's all.

 

[surplus1]

I thought Mr. Buttrell's "proposal" was for a one-year pay freeze. How does he manage to extend that to three years in his "explanation"?

Am I just confused or do I smell several rats?

The "carrot" of the EMB-170. Hmmmm, this guy really IS a used car salesman. Don't worry about the price of the car he says, your monthly payments will be low and there's no interest for 36 months. Meanwhile, take a test drive in the 500 and don't worry about the fact that we will be delivering a Focus.

It get's better all the time.

By the way, this elixr cures everything. I'll sell you two bottles for the price of one and throw in a new set of knives. All for 19.95 and available only on TV. Call 1-900 xxx xxxx, with your credit card.

 

[Sinca3]

You see what happens when nobody backs you up when you raise the bar? I've never been too critical of any contract except Mesa. Even then I've shied away from denigrating individual pilot's, but don't expect that CMR pilot's can play Atlas alone forever. You folks in the other airlines need to go one better than us just one time and we would not have to go through this! JMO.

Well ASA is trying and all you will do if you agree is hurt our attempts at RAISING the bar.
I agree it sucks to watch others grow and you and I stagnate. ASA was the epitamy of stagnation over the last 2.5 years. We are finally hiring again and will start to see some new a/c on the property soon. (Actually have 2 new birds already) We didn't cave in to the propaganda and I feel you shouldn't either. Be willing to up hold the bar, you worked to hard to see it come down! Especially this soon......

 

[P38JLightning]

Comair/ASA

Sinca3,

I am sure our MEC will talk this over completely with BA and your MEC. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if we get these 35 "growth jets" or if ASA gets them all. But we have to work together as one pilot group to make sure that whatever we do collectively, we keep them out of the hands of the contract whore low bidders.

I have no problem voting no on this proposal, even if its otherwise "perfect" with the perfect contractual language, if the ASA pilot leadership and members feel it would be a raw deal for them. But if voting no means we don't get these planes, and you don't get them either, and some scum sucking lower pilot cost lorenzo style "air group" gets them, then we will have done neither of our respective pilot groups (however unified) any service.

Again, immagine 5-10 years in the future with CHQ and SKYW and MESA each with a fleet of 100 or more 70 seaters with pay tables 10-45% less than Comair's and what ASA hopes to achieve. That's not only taps for us, it is the beginning of the end for many others, especialy if they make the jump to the E190 or 737 as rumors have it. Even today's sucessful LCC's will be hard pressed to compete against that. So much for time building, huh?

 

[Tim47SIP]

Not so fast!

Well ASA is trying and all you will do if you agree is hurt our attempts at RAISING the bar.


Sinca,
Comair taking the deal (if legit) will not hurt us at all. Delta was trying to get a reduction in pay from our Comair friends. This freeze tells us that Delta is OK with that level of compensation-leverage!. We may not be able to match Comairs rates as they have a slightly lower CASM than we do, but we should be able to get fairly close. As the previous poster stated, if Comair holds their feet to the fire, they will stagnate, and crappytaco gets the birds. Comair guys will have "upheld the bar" only to watch the industry around them take their flying. The QOL issues that will emerge from the number of aircraft proposed is huge and can not be over looked. Comair needs to get as many aircraft as possible (as does ASA) to keeep the other contract carriers from getting their hands on them. This growth isn't going to last for ever.

A good will gesture by the Comair guys to Fred would be the best thing to do. Give him a chance to show you his word means something instead of cutting him off before he can prove his trust. If he does not hold up his part of the bargain, then the Comair guys never have to trust him again. I think that their MEC should make that perfectly clear to Fred. With his reputation on the line, I think he will deliver.

 

[ifly4food]

Sorry, guys, but Portfolio Phred is a shister, a used car salesman. He never, ever said there would be EMB170s, he said there MIGHT be. If Comair takes this deal, they may find themselves taking concessions in exchange for more of the CR7s they already have. Then Delta will take the money the Comair pilots gave them and buy more -170s for ChitAgua.

The Comair pilots did not strike 89 days to give back now. If you consider the fact that they went unpaid for 89 days, then average that pay loss over the duration of the contract they achieved, they barely made their money back. Now freeze the pay, and take away quite a bit of the money from that contract and it becomes a losing proposition. Any Comair pilot that goes for this is a sucker!

 

[N2264J]

Re: More propoganda...

It will be interesting to see if the Comair pilots trade pay for growth. How many posts have been on this site about Comair pilots complaining that other regional pilots are doing this?

I was trying to keep an open mind about making a loan to the company with interest.

In other words, a freeze with snap back provisions that would make the pilots whole and then some-for example getting back our 89 days of longevity we lost during the strike and profit sharing-something like that. Or more simply, extending the contract for 2 or 3 years.

Management would get labor peace for a couple years, have a fixed cost they could take to their creditors for financing and once the bigger planes and more planes were on the property, our seat mile cost would go down even further increasing the profit margin. Win/win right?

But the devil is in the details and the details that are leaking out now are indicative of flat out concessionary bargaining. Once again, we are being played for a "concessions for growth" scam and that's just unacceptable. Buying growth out of our contract is a chump's game and if we start doing that, it will never end.

I think everyone agrees that the race to the bottom is bad. It has to stop somewhere and it may as well stop with us. That would not only preclude the undermining of ASA pilots who are involved in some dicey negotiations but holding the line will shore up and buttress pilot contracts throughout the entire industry. Once again, the Comair pilots will be tested and everyone is watching.

 

[DoinTime]

Comair guys....correct me if I am wrong but your current 70 seat rate is specifically for the CRJ700, correct? Now, if you were to bring the EMB170 on the property you would technically be required to negotiate a new pay rate for it. When your last contract was negotiated there were very few operators of this fleet type but now there are host of operators that do this work for rates less than your 50-seat rate.

Personally, I think you would have a tough time negotiating a rate equivalent to what you already have. We went through a similar deal at PCL when the company wanted a reduced pay rate for the 44-seat CRJ. Ultimately they conceded when industry parody would have given us pay raise over the 50-seater.

 

[surplus1]

Sinca3,

I am sure our MEC will talk this over completely with BA and your MEC. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if we get these 35 "growth jets" or if ASA gets them all. But we have to work together as one pilot group to make sure that whatever we do collectively, we keep them out of the hands of the contract whore low bidders.

Now you're talking like a Comair pilot and we're on the same frequency. Let's just make sure that we act to keep the solidarity not only with ASA but also internally. We cannot be effectively supportive of ASA unless we are solidly united within our own ranks. Please keep that in mind.

I have no problem voting no on this proposal, even if its otherwise "perfect" with the perfect contractual language, if the ASA pilot leadership and members feel it would be a raw deal for them. But if voting no means we don't get these planes, and you don't get them either, and some *CENSORED* lower pilot cost lorenzo style "air group" gets them, then we will have done neither of our respective pilot groups (however unified) any service.

I could support that without difficulty as well.

Again, immagine 5-10 years in the future with CHQ and SKYW and MESA each with a fleet of 100 or more 70 seaters with pay tables 10-45% less than Comair's and what ASA hopes to achieve. That's not only taps for us, it is the beginning of the end for many others, especialy if they make the jump to the E190 or 737 as rumors have it. Even today's sucessful LCC's will be hard pressed to compete against that. So much for time building, huh?

A word to the wise:

I would urge you to leave the 737 et al "rumors" out of the debate. The 737's rightfully belong to the Delta pilots and any effort on our part to infringe on their terrority would be dead wrong.

Regardless of what happens, we must never allow our good efforts to protect our interests to be jaundiced by reaching into the domain of others, even when it is only conjecture.

We cannot succeed in our efforts if we imply, whether real or imagined, a willingness to benefit at the expense of others, no matter how slight or frivolous.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

It will be interesting to see if the Comair pilots trade pay for growth. How many posts have been on this site about Comair pilots complaining that other regional pilots are doing this?

It is the "other regional pilots" who have made all this possible with their pathetic contracts thrown in our faces........Ever think about that?