More planes for ExpressJet

[Nevets]

Just write this junk into the filghtline software. Why bring in this POS. Why? Ask yourself. Why. Give me ONE good reason other than your MEC says it the best.

If it's so good, why are you volunteering to be the guinea pig. The laboratory mouse. Why.

Flightline is a quality system. It honors seniority. ACEY PEOPLE WAKE UP

Because, apparently, after our MEC ran flightline with real pairings and with real work rules, the conclusion is that it would be a decrease to our quality of life. They said that it may be acceptable with a lot of work rule changes and with management wanting to worsen the work rules, it would take a lot of negotiating capital in order to just maintain our QOL, much less the cost of that in other parts of the contract.

We did not volunteer for anything. Management was going to use PBS for phase 2. Our MEC asked them to use smartpref because it's what they felt was going to be the only PBS with the possibility to maintain our existing QOL. You won't be the guinea pig, we are. If its as bad as you think it's going to be, we won't want it. So just relax and at least educate yourself.

Also, my understanding is that flight line may honor seniority but at the expense of socializing everyone's lines.

Yup, its being hidden by our MEC. The information was in the white paper along with everyone being told to go watch videos, bid, etc here.

http://www.crewingsolutions.com/

The XJT guys accuse our MEC of hiding things from us yet it all seems to be there for those willing o either read or click on a website and spend sometime watching videos.

A year late (literally) and a dollar short. That version of smartpref is generic with no work rules. Your MEC still refuses to use real pairings with real work rules. In fact, I believe they haven't run ANY pairings with smartpref. But keep up the flight line or no merger ultimatum and we will all find out what happens.

 

[Tarzan]

Talked with DC about this. Seems they have quite a few runs from EWR using YOUR pairings. You speculate like you have facts about what happens in our MEC. Somehow I don't think you have the whole story. On second thought, I have to wonder why you continue to look to keep us divided. That is all you keep trying to do here. Why?

 

[screamingpax]

I think he meant that, like any PBS, it's about work rules. It needs to have flexibility for the award logic to work efficiently but not so much so that it turns into CAL's system. For example, if we had a work rule that required it to solve to zero open time, you have taken some of the flexibility away and will end up with worse lines. But on the other hand, you also want to have as high as a credit value you can negotiate, assigned to vacation and training, as possible also.

As for line averages, you can set it up to give you maximum line value, up to the contractual or legal limit, or you can have it build you a line down to MMG. Of course it depends on your seniority and what the line average of those more senior to you have compared to how much open time it needs to cover with everyone below you in seniority.

Lastly, if you don't want to "worry" about your bid, you can just take your whatever time it takes you to bid, see in real time if you made any mistakes or you bid something your seniority could hold, and be done with it. No need to come back to it later. You can just wait until your line is final as you do now.

I am sure it works well as you guys wouldn't have chosen it, if it didn't. I am just trying to get a grasp of it. As far as the MECs go, I don't know yours so I cn't speak of them. But to all the other LASA guys, do you really trust our MEC either. We may like Flightline that they chose for use but we didn't individually see anything else. And they DO a lot of other sneaky crap over there. The ASA MEC is a club and they protect their own. Regardless of PBS system, its time for new people. These guys have been in way too long.

 

[Nevets]

Talked with DC about this. Seems they have quite a few runs from EWR using YOUR pairings. You speculate like you have facts about what happens in our MEC. Somehow I don't think you have the whole story. On second thought, I have to wonder why you continue to look to keep us divided. That is all you keep trying to do here. Why?

That's news to me. Has it occurred to you that maybe now that your MEC is under some pressure from managements counter to their ultimatum, that they've actually started to try to cover themselves for not looking into this a year ago? I mean, it took them long enough to write their white paper. And they did that before they ran any pairings with smartpref.

I'm not trying to keep us divided. On the contrary. I've been trying to tell you guys the truth so that you can actually find out what's going on on your MEC. It's too bad it took management no longer playing softball to wake some of you guys up.

 

[www.]

I'm sorry... The web site doesn't list any airline that is currently using it for actual line bidding. Why is that? Why is there no airline that can be contacted to give a true, factual, actual first hand review of the way this product works by an entire pilot group?

It's like buying a car. You can read the brochure or look at it online, and buy the car OR you can read reviews by people, which are independent participants, that have test driven the actual completed product. Which is smarter.

 

[ingleburg5]

I'm sorry... The web site doesn't list any airline that is currently using it for actual line bidding. Why is that? Why is there no airline that can be contacted to give a true, factual, actual first hand review of the way this product works by an entire pilot group?

It's like buying a car. You can read the brochure or look at it online, and buy the car OR you can read reviews by people, which are independent participants, that have test driven the actual completed product. Which is smarter.

If that's your motto I guess you would turn down someone giving you a 2013 Corvette. No one in the general population has driven it, so it must be bad. No one has SmartPref because it is a "new" product. It's not everyday that pilot groups change bidding systems. In this case, this "new" product might have worked out kinks from other bidding systems and added some new useful features, but you are not willing to consider it because you love your "old model."

 

[ratherbeflyen]

Talked with DC about this. Seems they have quite a few runs from EWR using YOUR pairings. You speculate like you have facts about what happens in our MEC. Somehow I don't think you have the whole story. On second thought, I have to wonder why you continue to look to keep us divided. That is all you keep trying to do here. Why?

Pot meet kettle.

 

[Nevets]

I'm sorry... The web site doesn't list any airline that is currently using it for actual line bidding. Why is that? Why is there no airline that can be contacted to give a true, factual, actual first hand review of the way this product works by an entire pilot group?

It's like buying a car. You can read the brochure or look at it online, and buy the car OR you can read reviews by people, which are independent participants, that have test driven the actual completed product. Which is smarter.

Seems like you operate like your MEC, using the website as the extent of your research. Like I said, keep your flight line or no merger ultimatum. We will all see what happens. And I can guess that it won't be good for either group and it would definitely be worse than just going with smartpref.

 

[dojetdriver]

Flightline is a quality system. It honors seniority. ACEY PEOPLE WAKE UP

Even though there's L-ASA pilots that ACTUALLY know how it's operated and will say the opposite of your statement above?

As well as globalization happens, although it's just manually done?

 

[www.]

If that's your motto I guess you would turn down someone giving you a 2013 Corvette. No one in the general population has driven it, so it must be bad. No one has SmartPref because it is a "new" product. It's not everyday that pilot groups change bidding systems. In this case, this "new" product might have worked out kinks from other bidding systems and added some new useful features, but you are not willing to consider it because you love your "old model."

You might want to check the Chevrolet web site. There is a 2013 Corvette and it has been driven by the public since last year. The 2014 has not been built yet.

I would take a 2014 Corvette because they, GM, Sir have proven to me with prior years of happy customers. Smart Pref has none and still has a unproven product. Your smart pref is not a corvette.

Your "model" isn't a complete model. It's still in development.

 

[www.]

Seems like you operate like your MEC, using the website as the extent of your research. Like I said, keep your flight line or no merger ultimatum. We will all see what happens. And I can guess that it won't be good for either group and it would definitely be worse than just going with smartpref.

I have seen the notes, questions and answers, from the meetings w/smart pref. I was not impressed.

 

[www.]

Even though there's L-ASA pilots that ACTUALLY know how it's operated and will say the opposite of your statement above?

As well as globalization happens, although it's just manually done?

Unstacking has taken place last year 4 times for less than a few days. It only involved a very very small group of pilots on a certain aircraft and seat. Your product does it on a monthly basis, on every aircraft and every seat, and you have no control of it.

 

[www.]

We did not volunteer for anything. Management was going to use PBS for phase 2. Our MEC asked them to use smartpref because it's what they felt was going to be the only PBS with the possibility to maintain our existing QOL. You won't be the guinea pig, we are. If its as bad as you think it's going to be, we won't want it. So just relax and at least educate yourself.
We did.

Also, my understanding is that flight line may honor seniority but at the expense of socializing everyone's lines.
Wrong again


A year late (literally) and a dollar short. That version of smartpref is generic with no work rules. Your MEC still refuses to use real pairings with real work rules. In fact, I believe they haven't run ANY pairings with smartpref. But keep up the flight line or no merger ultimatum and we will all find out what happens.

Wrong again. They did and I have seen them also.

 

[dojetdriver]

Unstacking has taken place last year 4 times for less than a few days. It only involved a very very small group of pilots on a certain aircraft and seat. Your product does it on a monthly basis, on every aircraft and every seat, and you have no control of it.

Funny, there are L-ASA pilots on here that will disagree with you. Ask "CaptOveur", he's stated in a few times.

Does he not know what he's talking about? It's easier to take his word for something over yours.

 

[Nevets]

Wrong again. They did and I have seen them also.

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. Can you quote me your white paper where it said you tested a non-generic version of smartpref with real ASA pairings from a particular month/base/seat? Can you quote the conclusions of said testing and what it would take to maintain your QOL or if it can't, why not?

I guess I missed it.

 

[Speedtape]

If that's your motto I guess you would turn down someone giving you a 2013 Corvette. No one in the general population has driven it, so it must be bad. No one has SmartPref because it is a "new" product.
SmartPref was introduced in 2004 (9 years ago). It is NOT a "new" product. In 9 years, after many groups have evaluated SmartPref, including FedX, there is not 1 single customer. Why has no one signed up for SmartPref? Maybe, because they saw unfavorable characteristics to crewmembers? Please get your facts straight.

It's not everyday that pilot groups change bidding systems. In this case, this "new" product might have worked out kinks from other bidding systems and added some new useful features, but you are not willing to consider it because you love your "old model."

Again, SmartPref, this NOT "new" product was introduced in 2004. Actually, it may be older than most other PBS systems. Flightline's PrefBid was introduced in early 2009--5 years after SmartPref. PrefBid signed up 2 airlines in early 2009, and subsequently signed at least 5 other carriers. The pilots at L-ASA have now used the software for 24 months and the pilot satisfaction is reported very high. Very few pilots would desire to go back to line bidding. PrefBid is a proven product and has been battle tested. SmartPref has very little actual history other than running a simulated exercise on a desktop.

 

[dojetdriver]

SmartPref has very little actual history other than running a simulated exercise on a desktop. [/COLOR]

Incorrect statement.

 

[Speedtape]

Seems like you operate like your MEC, using the website as the extent of your research. Like I said, keep your flight line or no merger ultimatum. We will all see what happens. And I can guess that it won't be good for either group and it would definitely be worse than just going with smartpref.

PrefBid will give pilots more schedule satisfaction than SmartPref. Please, get over the fact that L-ASA uses it. It's the system and the rules, not the pilot group. SmartPref has no rules except to stuff 8 lbs in a 5 lb bag. A computer will pick half the trips on your line except for the pilots in McPickles upper seniority range. He will get what he bids. Why shouldn't the rest of the pilots junior to him? Why should the software have that much authority?

 

[paid4training]

Yea look what happened in those terminator movies when the computers took over. But seriously, you are kcufed with any new system. Go with something that is tried and true, unless it means a pissing contest with a merger company... Then kcuf that!!! Go with the totally unproven stuff and show those guys!!!!

 

[www.]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. Can you quote me your white paper where it said you tested a non-generic version of smartpref with real ASA pairings from a particular month/base/seat? Can you quote the conclusions of said testing and what it would take to maintain your QOL or if it can't, why not?

I guess I missed it.

And can you show me where your entire pilot group has used the product during a monthly bid process? I didn't think so.