MN crash

[Oakum_Boy]

I'm pretty sure considering KOWA is uncontrolled. I know when I listened to the recording there were some ancillary transmissions regarding a runway 31 which doesn't exist there.

 

[SNAFU22]

Very sad, Godspeed.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone mixed more than one frequency into the recording. If it was done for dramatic effect that would be unconscionable.

As far as I know, MSP CTR is the controlling agency who cleared the flight for ILS30, freq. change to advisory, and the cancellation of IFR by the aircraft.

Everything else is UNRELATED.

 

[SLUF4]

It's my understanding that the ATC was from Rochester (RST) approach/tower, so that was the reference for rwy 31 and the microbursts. Interesting to note that they had the runway in sight and cancelled IFR prior to landing. Unsure how far out they were at this point.

 

[PilotswifeII]

You really gotta explain this little gem.

If your husband has fear of charter dispatchers and the places they want him to operate, he need not be in the cockpit of ANY airplane.

Safety is not optional!

Due to my hasty typing I realized after I posted that it looks that way. In fact, he is the bravest person I know for choosing to be a pilot. You all are.

My husband has over 5,000 hours of jet time with an excellent safety record and 0 incidents. He's lost engines and hydraulics and made it through. He always tells me he thinks about his family and that reminds him to take extra care in his flying. He used to tell me that when he was working with some jerk dispatchers at a small time operation, he would take measures to ensure the safety of all onboard or even refuse a trip if weather was a factor, but they may not take it too well. It was all about the customer getting what they want. Think about it, the customer has a meeting in one city and the plane is diverted to another location say 300 miles away from the destination due to weather. Is the customer going to be happy about it, or will they complain to the charter co.? The co. mgt. may not always see it the pilot's way because they are trying to build their customer base and make money. Most passengers don't know enough about weather to check it. They just care about their business and leave everything up to the pilots while they eat chocolate-covered strawberries and drink Perrier. There is no question about my husband's feelings on safety--he even advised a pilot not to take a trip due to weather one time. It ended up being that pilot's last trip--he didn't make it back.

I have a great deal of respect for all pilots and their families from freight dogs to airline captains. It kills me to hear about crashes, especially in 135 where I feel the risk is much higher for pilots.

I wish you all safe trips.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

The audio clip previously posted has ground telling saying that the cones that were supposed to be on Echo were now on Juliet and would soon be "down near you". Was that at an airport other than OWA?

I am guessing the Rochester MN tower... Someone with more local knowledge could confirm that.

 

[Limeyflyer]

Also, does the Hawker 800 have reversers? I remember seeing one without them, just the lift dumping system.

RIP

The lift dump worked very well, all you had to do was crack the T/R's use lift dump and it slowed rapidly. I think I fully deployed the T/R's once in the 6 yrs of flying the hawker.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Due to my hasty typing I realized after I posted that it looks that way. In fact, he is the bravest person I know for choosing to be a pilot. You all are.

My husband has over 5,000 hours of jet time with an excellent safety record and 0 incidents. He's lost engines and hydraulics and made it through. He always tells me he thinks about his family and that reminds him to take extra care in his flying. He used to tell me that when he was working with some jerk dispatchers at a small time operation, he would take measures to ensure the safety of all onboard or even refuse a trip if weather was a factor, but they may not take it too well. It was all about the customer getting what they want. Think about it, the customer has a meeting in one city and the plane is diverted to another location say 300 miles away from the destination due to weather. Is the customer going to be happy about it, or will they complain to the charter co.? The co. mgt. may not always see it the pilot's way because they are trying to build their customer base and make money. Most passengers don't know enough about weather to check it. They just care about their business and leave everything up to the pilots while they eat chocolate-covered strawberries and drink Perrier. There is no question about my husband's feelings on safety--he even advised a pilot not to take a trip due to weather one time. It ended up being that pilot's last trip--he didn't make it back.

I have a great deal of respect for all pilots and their families from freight dogs to airline captains. It kills me to hear about crashes, especially in 135 where I feel the risk is much higher for pilots.

I wish you all safe trips.

Thanks for clearing that up.

He makes the safety decisions while the pax eat and drink......It sounds like your husband does, well, his job!

 

[siouxicide]

Pretty misleading to throw RST ground control in there, but that's the media for you. RST is pretty close and the only controlled airport I can think of in the area with a RWY 31, but still far too distant to throw it in there as a comparison of weather conditions during that timeframe. That's sickening if they're trying to damn the pilots to John Q. Public with their "journalism".
If you ask me, their weather report from ATC sounded pretty decent, as if the storm had passed through. Who knows, we weren't there. A deer could have run onto the runway to cause a go-around, we'll never know. But the media disgusts me with their cut and paste of the audio.

 

[Andy Neill]

I didn't get the impression this was journalism at work. It is simply a tape from RST with neither addition nor deletion for the significant time period involved. Are those prejudices I see in your post.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If you ask me, their weather report from ATC sounded pretty decent, as if the storm had passed through.

A level 6 storm with 80mph gusts that just passed through might very well not be "pretty decent" wx.

Clear or not, gotta give those things LOTS OF ROOM! - what does the AIM say? Ops specs?

gust fronts, microbursts, etc...can all happen very much in the clear.

Right now its anyones GUESS of course, but I'd gather that the proximity of those cells to their arrival path is getting most of the attention, not a deer on the runway.

 

[400A]

Pretty misleading to throw RST ground control in there, but that's the media for you. RST is pretty close and the only controlled airport I can think of in the area with a RWY 31, but still far too distant to throw it in there as a comparison of weather conditions during that timeframe. That's sickening if they're trying to damn the pilots to John Q. Public with their "journalism".
If you ask me, their weather report from ATC sounded pretty decent, as if the storm had passed through. Who knows, we weren't there. A deer could have run onto the runway to cause a go-around, we'll never know. But the media disgusts me with their cut and paste of the audio.

While I hate the press coverage of aviation events, I do not believe it was cut and paste audio. More likely a scanner.

On the other hand, if you personally would go around for a Deer on the runway after touchdown you are asking for trouble.

 

[400A]

A level 6 storm with 80mph gusts that just passed through might very well not be "pretty decent" wx.

Clear or not, gotta give those things LOTS OF ROOM! - what does the AIM say? Ops specs?

gust fronts, microbursts, etc...can all happen very much in the clear.

Right now its anyones GUESS of course, but I'd gather that the proximity of those cells to their arrival path is getting most of the attention, not a deer on the runway.

AMEN! as an example, many aircraft have been totaled by hail.........but they were in the clear!

Tornado's often live on the BACK side of a cell like that.

 

[SLUF4]

The ATC audio is just a recording of RST ground/tower/approach probably from liveatc.net I don't think there was any malice involved, but those transmissions happened concurrently with the incident flight. I think it's way too early to tell if the WX was a factor, but obviously they thought it was good enough to continue in visually. Who knows-it could have been anything; including weather.

 

[Rokit88]

This is a very sad event.

I deal with pushy passengers by one simple sentence "Sir/Maam , I also have a vested interest in arriving safely."

That usually shuts em up.

 

[DeltaLima21]

I am guessing the Rochester MN tower... Someone with more local knowledge could confirm that.

RST is 35NM from OWA... Weather can be a lot different from one airport to the other, obviously...

 

[EmeliaE]

clients bullying pilots?

How about Cowboy pilots?

 

[400A]

How about Cowboy pilots?

They normally do not have to be pushed. They often take care of themselves.

 

[siouxicide]

On the other hand, if you personally would go around for a Deer on the runway after touchdown you are asking for trouble.

Have you seen what a deer does to a plane? Besides, I never said they'd touched down. If I was on the ground, especially with TR's and/or spoilers out, I'm committed. What I was saying is the reason for a go-around could be anything they deemed appropriate, not just weather. CVR has been reported in good condition so we might just find out when the NTSB dissects it.
And yes, I know, stay away from Tstorms, but we don't know what they saw on their radar and GENERALLY once a line has passed, all is OK(minus a wet runway). Don't tell me you've never landed after a thunderstorm has passed or better yet waited for one to pass. I'm saying many of us might have done the same thing depending on how the info was fed to us. It'd be nice to know if they had XMWX.
KOWA is controlled by MSP center under IFR. So a scanner is the most likely reason for the two controllers being heard. But if it's a scanner why aren't all the other ARTCC freqs heard? Just the accident aircraft's freq and RST ground talking around 10am? Doubt it. And I highly doubt those were the only two freqs plugged into the scanner so I'm still thinking a little editing was involved.
Yes I am prejudice against the media. They've altered quotes from me personally just to make their story better and, yes, they used a tape recorder so no excuses. I pray the media wasn't intentionally trying to condemn these two gentlemen before the facts are out.
I think it's healthy to speculate what happened so we can all be conscious of it the next time out. But it's just dead wrong to conclude and condemn without being there, sitting in their seats.

 

[siouxicide]

Just listened to that audio again...the cells were reported pretty close. But still....ya never know. Godspeed all involved.

 

[400A]

Have you seen what a deer does to a plane? Besides, I never said they'd touched down. If I was on the ground, especially with TR's and/or spoilers out, I'm committed. What I was saying is the reason for a go-around could be anything they deemed appropriate, not just weather. CVR has been reported in good condition so we might just find out when the NTSB dissects it.
And yes, I know, stay away from Tstorms, but we don't know what they saw on their radar and GENERALLY once a line has passed, all is OK(minus a wet runway). Don't tell me you've never landed after a thunderstorm has passed or better yet waited for one to pass. I'm saying many of us might have done the same thing depending on how the info was fed to us. It'd be nice to know if they had XMWX.
KOWA is controlled by MSP center under IFR. So a scanner is the most likely reason for the two controllers being heard. But if it's a scanner why aren't all the other ARTCC freqs heard? Just the accident aircraft's freq and RST ground talking around 10am? Doubt it. And I highly doubt those were the only two freqs plugged into the scanner so I'm still thinking a little editing was involved.
Yes I am prejudice against the media. They've altered quotes from me personally just to make their story better and, yes, they used a tape recorder so no excuses. I pray the media wasn't intentionally trying to condemn these two gentlemen before the facts are out.
I think it's healthy to speculate what happened so we can all be conscious of it the next time out. But it's just dead wrong to conclude and condemn without being there, sitting in their seats.

I assumed that you read the eye witness report that the aircraft touched down and was referring to that scenario. (not saying that was accurate ) I have seen what a Deer does to an aircraft and that is why I would never go around for one post touchdown. I would rather hit it decelerating than accelerating. Airborne, I agree go around.


Based on the radar picture I saw, it is entirely possible to me that those were the only voices on the frequency.

 

[piav8r]

Actually RST is the controlling agency for KOWA under IFR, Minneapolis Center/Approach takes care of the upper level stuff. I did a majority of my flight training out of RST and the area and have lived here my entire life. The reason you are hearing ground and approach on the same frequency is that when it is not busy one to two controllers work all three frequencies.

Sad Sad Day...

 

[siouxicide]

I would rather hit it decelerating than accelerating.

Good point.

piav8r, thanks for correcting me on that. I'd never heard RST control in and out of OWA and the chart says MSP center, so I took it as fact. I guess WCCO may just very well be vindicated. Interested to hear what's said on the CVR.

 

[PiratePilot]

just curious what the 800 dry landing distance would be at 20C, pressure alt 1000 ft, typical BOW, 1500 lbs payload, IFR fuel reserve.

Thanks

 

[400A]

Landing Distance

The chart goes from Sea Level to 2000 ft, so here are the 2000 ft numbers at Max Landing Weight of 23,350.

Unfactored Dry: 2780ft

Factored: Dry: 4630
Wet: 5320

At 21,000 (More Realistic)

Dry Unfactored:2450ft Dry Factored:4280ft Wet:4920

These are 0 wind numbers.

 

[Fly91]

On the other hand, if you personally would go around for a Deer on the runway after touchdown you are asking for trouble.

Who said they ever "touched down"? I think they were slammed down or stalled down. 20 knots decrease in IAS which was reported by the pilot, maybe a second or two later they lost 50 knots and, well, you know..........

We'll find out all the facts soon enough.

It will be weather related though.

 

[Fly91]

This is a very sad event.

I deal with pushy passengers by one simple sentence "Sir/Maam , I also have a vested interest in arriving safely."

That usually shuts em up.

I like, "Safety is my concern, not your appointments."

And I'm not kidding, I've said it to many people.

 

[fu69atacafyeah]

I like, "Safety is my concern, not your appointments."

And I'm not kidding, I've said it to many people.

i would love to say that!! dont know how well it would go over if i said it like that but, im with you on that!

 

[Fly91]

i would love to say that!! dont know how well it would go over but, im with you on that!

They can take it as a joke or take it seriously, I don't care. I've had passengers kind of laugh when I would say it and some would just have a confused look on their face and go back and sit down.

 

[Cat3C]

accident

The families are still making funeral plans. Lets not over analyze this accident yet.