Misery loves Comany: PCL to park 15 CRJs

[Redmeat]

Not likely Red Meat.

That's where we'd LIKE them to go, otherwise we get stuck here even LONGER than we had planned.

But NWA will be ditching scope in bankruptcy, you can count on it.

Once they do that, they'll put the 70-90 seaters wherever they d*mn well please, and I seriously doubt it will be at the higher cost-level mainline playing field, otherwise there'd be no reason to go after scope, now would there?

"Now would there?"

“NEWCO” will be the biggest variable in this ugly game at NWA, Pinnacle and Mesaba and possibly the future regional who will purchase “NEWCO”. The following is a pessimistic view of NEWCO and I welcome any optimism.

According to senior management "NEWCO" WILL fly 100 seat jets at regional pay as MYNAMEISJIM stated. Management already considers this a fact. NEWCO might be a new regional (operated by furloughed NWA Pilots), or a division of mainline (C-Scale), or something else that no one has mentioned.

Initially NEWCO was intended to fly 100 seat jets. However, after the Bankruptcy senior management stated that the cost differences between operating 70 seaters at a Regional vs. at Mainline have become “negligible.” And, subject to significant negotiations, 70 seaters could realistically be flown by mainline pilots (at regional wages) i.e “NEWCO”.

If NWA pilots create a separate division, I predict “NEWCO” will become the next generation MidAtlantic. Created to give the impression of saving mainline jobs and providing jobs to furloughs (as DC-9s are quietly replaced by RJs at regional wages) and later sold to gain financing in order to exit bankruptcy. I can’t think of any contract language to prevent this because a Judge can approve anything if it is “necessary” for the survival of the company and to exit bankruptcy. U.S. Airways created MidAtlantic (NEWCO) while in bankruptcy and sold it to Chautauqua in order to exit bankruptcy. A genius management idea if you ask me. The average (almost all) NWA pilots have never even heard of MidAtlantic and most who have heard of it don’t know what happened. Those who don’t learn from the past are doomed to have it repeated. The NWA pilots will also rationalize their concessions because they are saving their pensions. That is exactly how U.S Airways and United saved their pensions. Oh wait? They still turned them over to the PBGC. Again, we are destined to repeat our mistakes.

"Newco" will consist of all furloughed mainline pilots, flying whatever "CRJ" equipment is decided on. Essentially a regional at regional pay while these guys wait to go back to mainline.

 

[100LL... Again!]

You guys are getting a little ahead of yourselves here. Mesaba isn't necessarily getting the 15 CRJs. It's possible that NWA just wants them parked temporarily. Also, nothing has been said so far about furloughs or displacements. All we know is that 15 RJs are getting parked for now. With our staffing levels so low, it's entirely possible that no one will get furloughed. In fact, it's possible that upgrades and new-hire classes will pick right back up as soon as the dust settles and management gets their bearings. Much more will be known tomorrow afternoon. No need to start getting worried and stressed out just yet.

100LL, I hate to break it to you little man, but I and many of the GIA guys sit in the top half of the seniority list. We aren't going anywhere. Thanks for playing though.

That's why I said "figure out a way", you craven little PFT whore.

Still in the business of rationalizing your own actions while bashing others?

 

[Lear70]

Now RedMeat, let me get this straight. You're quoting an individual's personal OPINION that has no FACTS to back it up? By that person's OWN ADMISSION it's THEIR "pessimistic view" of NewCo.

And I'm supposed to read this person's drivel and automatically put 100% faith in it and agree completely? I simply don't, because...

WHY would mainline management put any aircraft in their fleet when they can operate it for 30%-40% less at one of their regional partners?

Must have missed Business 101 the day they talked about cost -vs- profit, did ya'?

I'll say it again... I don't WANT them here, or at Mesaba... it makes an already stunted career that much longer in the "minor leagues". I'm just being realistic as to what would be the most cost effective and what, therefore, the mainline carrier would MOST LIKELY seek in Chapt 11 - the lowest cost.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

At CAE in YUL, PCL VP's were on the schedule for the EMB 170 sim this past week.

WTF would the execs care about seeing a sim?

 

[TurboAWD]

Fly4hire:

I'm sick of you whiney mainline pilots complaining about 500hr regional pilots stealing your jobs and working for nothing when it was mainline pilots who didn't care about anything but their new, bigger boat they could buy with the raise they could get if they would let up on scope and let regionals fly those dumb little 50, I mean 70, no, wait 100 seat jets.

Shortsighted and selfish, and it screws me over just as much if not more than you.

Yes, there are some dumb schmucks at the regional that want your airplanes. Just like there are dumb guys like you at mainline that think we "took" them (you gave it away). What I want is your job. The whole package. QOL, Pay, hot young stews , etc. Not your stupid airplane.

 

[airmasn]

How about being furloughed from a $120K/yr job after 8 yrs (and 20 + yrs flying)at your airline, with kids in college and retirement looming because your company is in Ch11 and is outsourcing your job to $20K/yr FO's with little TT or expereince? Glad all you RedTail 9E/XJ guys and gals stick together. I notice that doesn't extend to the Red Tail from whence your jobs sprang and the pilots at NWA that your parasitic career is feeding on.

You have no idea how sick I am of listening to you guys drool about getting that 70/90 seat jet at the cost of more of our pilots, and now whining when someone parks one of you jets. We have 500 on the street, soon to be joined by another 400, with another 1000 possibly after that.

I realize it's our respective companies, not the pilots, but some of you carry on like the relatives fighting over the estate of a not yet dead relative. Shameful.

Hey numbnuts...

I dont see anyone drooling over any 70 or 90 seat airplanes here...we are all smart enough to realize that could be detrimental to our careers. And as for the parasitic career we all have here, Pinnacle and Mesaba make a ton of cash for NWA. Dont believe it? Go send your fu@*ing Airbusses to Greenville Mississippi and Monroe Louisiana then. Better yet, go crawl back up your husband's ass.

You talk like you were born in the left seat of the 757...prick.

 

[Redmeat]

Now RedMeat, let me get this straight. You're quoting an individual's personal OPINION that has no FACTS to back it up? By that person's OWN ADMISSION it's THEIR "pessimistic view" of NewCo.

And I'm supposed to read this person's drivel and automatically put 100% faith in it and agree completely? I simply don't, because...

WHY would mainline management put any aircraft in their fleet when they can operate it for 30%-40% less at one of their regional partners?

Must have missed Business 101 the day they talked about cost -vs- profit, did ya'?

I'll say it again... I don't WANT them here, or at Mesaba... it makes an already stunted career that much longer in the "minor leagues". I'm just being realistic as to what would be the most cost effective and what, therefore, the mainline carrier would MOST LIKELY seek in Chapt 11 - the lowest cost.

Not fact.

Just word around the camp fire.

 

[Flyinisforbirds]

I was talking to a NWA pilot not to long ago and I stated "I think all jet flying should be done at mainline including 50 seaters" and he said "no..50 seats should be flown by the regionals". These are not exact quotes but as close as I can remember.


Why have mainline pilots psychologically given up on good flying? And, if they gave up I might be ok, but I think they never even wanted it. That’s what got us into this problem in the first place. I just don’t get it. Unless you are considering a career at a regional (which I consider a perfectly legitimate career choice), I think all pilots should prefer any jet flying to be done at a mainline and go to the bargaining table with that mentality.

 

[jetfo]

Why do we continue to allow the mainline/regional management groups to divide and conquer our collective pilot groups?

What we should all strive for is to have all flying for a particular carrier be under the same colors and the same pilot group.

You simply get paid by the number of seats you fly and this provides a stable career path from a CRJ to a 747 under mainline work rules.

Better yet, inefficient aircraft such as the CRJ440/200 and AVRO85 with 69 seats won't be artificially downsized and utilized to fit some absurd scope clause. Although, the extra closet space is certainly nice.

Everyone is in the same boat, with the same opportunities for advancement based on seniority into ever larger equipment at higher rates of compensation.

Of course, this would prevent management from playing pilots off against each other, and we can't have that now, can we?!?

There I go thinking again. Forgive me!

 

[Deli Guy]

Man, this is one hoppin' thread. I really think most of the pilots at mainline--even those close to furlough-- do not realize how critical the 70-100 seat flying is right now. I mean right now. Alpa is discussing this with management right now. This one issue is probably going to impact more pilots under the "Red Tail" than any other. If other than mainline gets the flying, this equals 1000+ furloughs because it is the replacement for the 9 and, of course, it will start taking some of the 320 flying. If mainline gets the flying the reverse will happen. It will probably impact the 50 seaters where 50 seaters are vulnerable causing furloughs (I do not know the markets so no predictions) If mainline gets the flying, we may end up at CHQ or the like and without much senority.

Anybody got their stuff in at Jetblue? It might or might not be a long term job (I am betting it will be) but at least they are treated well right now. Hey, lets demand that the name of NEWCO becomes Jetred and demand that management treats us better! Then lets make Jetred the transition point for a flowthrough for Pcl & Mesaba to mainline! Follow me men!!!!

 

[WMUSIGPI]

How about being furloughed from a $120K/yr job after 8 yrs (and 20 + yrs flying)at your airline, with kids in college and retirement looming because your company is in Ch11 and is outsourcing your job to $20K/yr FO's with little TT or expereince? Glad all you RedTail 9E/XJ guys and gals stick together. I notice that doesn't extend to the Red Tail from whence your jobs sprang and the pilots at NWA that your parasitic career is feeding on.

You have no idea how sick I am of listening to you guys drool about getting that 70/90 seat jet at the cost of more of our pilots, and now whining when someone parks one of you jets. We have 500 on the street, soon to be joined by another 400, with another 1000 possibly after that.

I realize it's our respective companies, not the pilots, but some of you carry on like the relatives fighting over the estate of a not yet dead relative. Shameful.

Perhaps if you "mainliners" hadn't been so dang holier than thou about these 'regional JETS' when they first showed up you wouldn't be b!tching about regionals stealing your jobs.
You need to smack ALPA for turning it's nose up when these RJ's first showed up. I would have rather not seen these things at a "regional" I would have liked to think I could some day work for a major airline..... I still won't call the Avro an "RJ" ...it is the same airframe that has been flown by a number of majors just with updated avionics.... big deal...the question is WHAT NOW?????

 

[CptMurf]

Back up WMUSIGPI,
Having jets at the airlinks is a relatively new thing and the market has been horrible just about since they got them. The AVRO's came in 97-99 and the CRJ's 99-?? The AVRO's were an exception to the NWA scope clause, mainline pilots fought hard then for the airlinks not to get them, and all of us were told it was a stop-gap airplane.

To everyone else,
To say that the airlinks are a drain on NWA or more precisely, the 50 seaters are a drain, is assinine. No widebody aircraft would move with the loads as high as they are now without the airlinks, so get off your high and mighty horse that they are not needed. The AVRO's and the CRJ44's are not efficient aircraft, because they could have more seats in them. I expect reconfiguring of these aircraft that are already on the property and staffed, to happen first, at the cost of NWA scope, through the BK judge, and against mainline's pilots will.

Will there be more 50/70/90 seat aircraft flying for redtail, probably. We need to stop bickering about who is going to get them and start working together to come to a mutual agreement on how we can all benefit (read save our jobs while not stealing others) As I have mentioned before, and Deli reiterated, this is the time for ONE LIST, flow up flow down (mainline HAS to start this process). Who cares who's name is under the window, it going to be painted in NWA colors anyway, you got the seniority, you can fly it. As for the payrates, remember the ORIGINAL rj (read DC9), had just about as many seats as these new jets. Lets not short ourselves into 50 seat rates on 70 aircraft. Competitive, but not given away.

One last point, there are alot of pilots at the airlinks that have the time and the experience to have been hired at all of the legacey carriers prior to 9/11. We are already paying the price for the poor economy in this industry, don't belittle us by saying that just because I didn't get hired and get a seniority number on 9/1/01 that I am less of a pilot and don't deserve respect. We fly more legs on any given day, to worse airports (when the last time a mainline aircraft shot an NDB), and probably carry more passengers in a year than a whale captain. We are equals and we are in this together.

 

[Fly4hire]

I dont see anyone drooling over any 70 or 90 seat airplanes here...we are all smart enough to realize that could be detrimental to our careers. And as for the parasitic career we all have here, Pinnacle and Mesaba make a ton of cash for NWA.

Plenty here do throughout this board. BTW the only way PCL/XJ make $$ for NWA is because of the subsidized fuel price ($ 0.85/gal) jet fuel NWA gives you via the ASA and the fee for departure. Pay the going rate for fuel and operating your (oops, NWA's) acft and you will look like Independence Air.

NWA is happy playing that shell game to labor's disadvantage at the mainline, but in Ch11 that's going to change, and is as events are proving.

Yeah, ALPA screwed up a long time ago allowing RJ's at the feeders instead of keeping them at the main line. That can also be partialy undone, and in the long run it will be to everyones benefit.

Think about the fact that the current announced furloughs will go back to ~ 1999 hires at NWA. There is going to be many more after that. Most of these pilots were flying at NWA before you even were out of flight school.

As to your vulgarity, it's a demonstration of both your age and inexperience.

 

[Fly4hire]

I didn't realize anyone who had been at NWA for 8 years was on furlough. So what airline is it you speak of?

Current furloughd will be through ~late 1999 hires. Many more anticipated.

By the way, thanks for lumping us all together. There are several posts from 9E/XJ pilots wishing the best for NWA pilots. I have some good friends that are or will be on the street soon.

You are correct. It's easy get spitting blood mad at some of the posters here. They are not the majority.

Direct your rant at the people who caused this and not those that are paying the price just like you

I'd say the NWA pilots are paying a much steeper price. How many PCL pilots have been hired since 9/11? How many have and will be furloughed? Ooops, I forgot, there might even be some pilots that will have the required flight hour minimums when they get a chance to upgrade to Capt. on the CRJ. The pain, the pain.....

 

[sf3boy]

fly4hire

Lets talk about some pain. IF they Avros go and Mesaba doesn't get a replacement airplane, the furloughs at Mesaba will also go to around 1999. I believe that is the same as what you stated at NW. There is one small difference, however. The NWA pilots will all still be paid over 100K/year. You should try living on 30K/year doing the exact same job. Nobody feels sorry for the mainline pilots crying in their beer " I got a kid in college." So do a lot of other people.

 

[CptMurf]

Fly4hire
"Think about the fact that the current announced furloughs will go back to ~ 1999 hires at NWA. There is going to be many more after that. Most of these pilots were flying at NWA before you even were out of flight school."

Actually sir, I was hired at XJ prior to 1999, and one day would like to move on, but it is people like you that I need to move up or move on. With your attitude, I wish the latter.

"I'd say the NWA pilots are paying a much steeper price. How many PCL pilots have been hired since 9/11? How many have and will be furloughed? Ooops, I forgot, there might even be some pilots that will have the required flight hour minimums when they get a chance to upgrade to Capt. on the CRJ. The pain, the pain....."

I know you are discussing PCL in this quote, not XJ, but if it was meant to imply the Airlinks. Then I will say that about 85-90 percent of all XJ pilots were hired prior to 9/11, most have felt the effects of 9/11. I myself was downgraded for 2 years at a cost of 16,000 dollars a year (maybe not much for you, but alot for me), some were furloughed, rehired, and furloughed again (some 3 times). Last I heard the 50 seaters were tied into your scope, you had a voice in your vote, unfortunately (for you) majority rules. It is not PCL's pilots fault(?) that they got those airframes, and I am sure you would have taken a job there straight out of college if you had the ability. As I said above, lets work together to solve this. If NWA ALPA takes the road of AMFAA (isolating themselves), and tries to go it alone without XJ and PNCL, then they will be doomed. I personally would like to see all of the redtails not only survive, but thrive. Maybe then I could leave my pink SAAB behind.

 

[Fly4hire]

Actually sir, I was hired at XJ prior to 1999, a one day would like to move on, but it is people like you that I need to move up or move on. With your attitude, I wish the latter....

I know you are discussing PCL in this quote, not XJ, but if it was meant to imply the Airlinks. ...... If NWA ALPA takes the road of AMFAA (isolating themselves), and tries to go it alone without XJ and PNCL, then they will be doomed. I personally would like to see all of the redtails not only survive, but thrive. Maybe then I could leave my pink SAAB behind.

Sigh....sorry for the rant. A lot of my vitriole is aimed at a very small minority of flame baiter pre-pubescent PCL new hires who don't have a clue.

Almost all the XJ folks I have worked with and come in contact with are nothing but top notch. I realize full well that luck and timing have more to do with this business than anything else.

As to NWA ALPA pulling up the rug, I think it's a done deal. They are a bunch of toothless old men who are peeing themselves over the pension, are focusing on everything else as a distant second, and think anything negotiated will be better than what they might get in court.

I envision you guys (sigh....) getting 70/90 seaters, a NEWCO type operation that hopefully will not go the way of mid-atlantic, and up to a total of 2000 NWA pilots on the street and at NEWCO. There will be mainline hiring at U before there will be at NWA again.

I apologize for the previous rants. I know it's not your guys fault, and that everyone is going to feel the pain on his to one degree or another......

 

[Looking]

Fly4hire.

I'd say the NWA pilots are paying a much steeper price. How many PCL pilots have been hired since 9/11? How many have and will be furloughed? Ooops, I forgot, there might even be some pilots that will have the required flight hour minimums when they get a chance to upgrade to Capt. on the CRJ. The pain, the pain.....

If you truly are at the majors and show this little respect for all the Ex. NW, DL, UA, CO, Comair, Indy, ATA, etc..... furloughed pilots at 9E, then you are truly a fool. We have had our pay sliced and diced, our benefits are worse, all our savings are gone a long time ago, and we still get up every morning we have to work, and do what we are expected to according to our sub-par working agreement.

I think most outside pilots would be surprised to find the # of well qualified pilots at 9E, both from own ranks and from other regionals, military and majors, who are working here because they are doing their best to reestablish their broken careers.

Have a nice day.......

 

[Terry Hunter]

When things get tense, it's easy to speak with emotion instead of our mind.

But anyway, here's a question, and I'm hopeing a few NWA guys can reply on this:
Scope - Limits set on 44/50/70 were set in place in 1998 when NWA was prospering in great amounts. Would it be reasonable that those need to be relaxed to make a 50 seat airplane a 50 seat airplane, and a 85 seat airplane a 85 seat airplane (if that will save it)? Most RJ's are very tight on profit margin as it is.

 

[Redmeat]

I'd say the NWA pilots are paying a much steeper price. How many PCL pilots have been hired since 9/11? How many have and will be furloughed? Ooops, I forgot, there might even be some pilots that will have the required flight hour minimums when they get a chance to upgrade to Capt. on the CRJ. The pain, the pain.....

Fly4hire..



If you truly are at the majors and show this little respect for all the Ex. NW, DL, UA, CO, Comair, Indy, ATA, etc..... furloughed pilots at 9E, then you are truly a fool.

He apologized for his comments in the post above yours 3 hours ago. Look above "Captain".

JEEEEEEEEEEZE

We have had our pay sliced and diced, our benefits are worse, all our savings are gone a long time ago, and we still get up every morning we have to work, and do what we are expected to according to our sub-par working agreement.

I think most outside pilots would be surprised to find the # of well qualified pilots at 9E, both from own ranks and from other regionals, military and majors, who are working here because they are doing their best to reestablish their broken careers.

Have a nice day.......

Yeah and you knew what the job description and pay was at your company when you accepted the position. What is your point.

 

[buckwheatt]

They Took Our Joooobs

 

[Lear70]

I'd say the NWA pilots are paying a much steeper price. How many PCL pilots have been hired since 9/11? How many have and will be furloughed? Ooops, I forgot, there might even be some pilots that will have the required flight hour minimums when they get a chance to upgrade to Capt. on the CRJ. The pain, the pain.....

Why does it have to be "we are hurting worse than you"... "we need it more than you"... "our mechanics can beat up your mechanics...? What does THAT kind of rhetoric do for ANY of us?

How many PCL pilots since 9/11? Approximately 800.

How many have and will be furloughed? 100 after 9/11 (including me - my 2nd furlough for that year), and now probably another 100, until the NEXT round of aircraft parking is announced, then another hundred or two more.

EVERYONE is hurting... NO ONE is safe... We don't need to continue this type of bickering, it solves nothing and helps no one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hey all,

Feel free to use the avatar. Let's show some unity and express our collective opinion of NWA.

MM

The avatar says more about the user than NWA. Guys, if you want to get thru this it is going to take alot more than this..... you need to go from zero to full speed and you haven't turned on the motor.....

Stay Sane.

 

[dondk]

157 pilots were furloughed 11 days after 9/11 (I was one of them too). Another 35 or so who were in various stages of training were outright let go. Of the 157 furloughee's, about 140 returned within 87 days. 5 or 6 of the 35 let go were offered positions after the company hired 100 or so ahead of them. The others were not even offered an opportunity to return.

Currently Pinnacle has "refugee's" from the USAir wholly owned regionals, Indy Air (ACA) and 38 still standing NWA furloughees.

Bottom line, this will be a lesson for our 800 or so guys hired after the last furlough. Hopefully they will keep this in mind in 2-3 years when our contract may be ratified. The sad part is the dude that may be furloughed, will make more on unemployment than guarantee.

 

[Flyinisforbirds]

What is the current unemployment rate? 3 years ago it was only 350 a week.

 

[dondk]

Varies by state as I recall... Living in PA I made more on unemployment then when I was working.

Guarantee is only 75 hours at 21 per hour (rounded) less than $400 per week before taxes.

 

[tomdav]

They Took Our Joooobs

I love that South park episode.

 

[Rook]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/downloads/display_sound.php?ep_number=806&ep_name=Goobacks&snd=http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/sounds/806/THEYTOOKOURJOBS3.wav&snd_name=They%20took%20our%20jobs!

enjoy

Rook

 

[Snakum]

That's why I said "figure out a way", you craven little PFT whore.

Still in the business of rationalizing your own actions while bashing others?

God#$%& you 100LL, you crusty old Facist! Don't you realize you're talking to the "Resident ALPA Defender"? This young man has repented the evil of paying to play pilot while hundreds of South Florida CFIs struggled in the oppressive heat in ratty old C150s and begged for multi-engine flight time. He has confessed his sins and realizes the folly of getting a leg up into a new CRJ at 500 hours while crusty old Freight Dogs flew clapped out Barons at night in the ice and thunderstorms and sent thousands of resumes during the day between Ramen noodle entres and catnaps on the floor of a rusting mobile home.

This is not, as someone else posted on another thread about him, a case of "FYIGM". He really has seen the light. He is now a valued leader of the anti-RJDC movement, a firebreathing Unionist and ALPA supporter. You are not fit to carry his flightbag, you bitter old corporate piston wanker. You could learn a thing or two from this young man.

And further ...

I and many of the GIA guys sit in the top half of the seniority list

... you may be looking at him across a table in an interview one day, if you decide to go back into 121.

Minh

 

[100LL... Again!]

I WOULD HAVE forgave him for his crimes against the profession, except...

Follow me for a moment snakers. I know you don't believe in my Bible, but there are still a lot of worthwhile stories in it, fictitious as they may be.

There is a story about a man who owed a lot to the king. The king demanded payment. The man begged for mercy and the king was moved by this and forgave the debt. No sooner did this occur than the just-forgiven man went off and demanded payment of a tiny little debt from his neighbor. When the neighbor begged for mercy, he had him thrown in debtor's prisin. So, while he was forgiven a very large debt, he himself would not forgive a very small debt.


This, essentially, is why I think PCL is a raving hypocrite and a disgrace o the profession and conservatives everywhere.

He has delicately and soothingly explained away how he must be forgiven for his ignorance, and why he deserves a 'second chance', so to speak.

At the same time, he plans to come down like a ton of bricks on any g0 jet pilot he meets.

You see, he explains, HE didn't know better, but THEY should.

I am more inclined to forgive a long-time professional who needs a job than a snot-nosed punk who wanted to cut in line.

As far as your ridiculous notion that I'm not fit to carry his flight bag? Nice try a psychology. I've been busting my a$$ for years in this business, and was flying approaches to mins when PCL was still in high school. He could stand to learn a lot from me, rather.

And him sitting at an interview board across from me?
If you knew my current position, you could see how that is impossible. Actually, it would be more likely to be the other way.


PCL is trying to wash off the stink of being a PFT whore. He is doing it being as hard on others as possible. He's an a44-kissing pantywaist loser.

He will never know what it is like to work hard for a flying job and build the hours slowly, earning every one.

He will never know what it is like to be responsible for an airplane all by yourself, in weather, without a PIC along to sweep up your f-ups and hold your hand.

This overcompensation on his part is laughable. You know, when some people become religious, one of the first things they do is go around telling everyone that they are going to he11 if they don't shape up.

You would think that they would llike to put a little distance between their sins and when they appoint themselves to the judgement seat.

I'd laught just as hard if Martha Stewart wanted to sit on Ken Lay's jury.