military pilots total time?

[NTS ALL 4]

Military better?

Okay, I'll take a shot at this one.

I've also done it Military and Civilian. I started out CFI-II, UPT, C-130, Commuters, Majors. In the military, I've flew HI-NDB approaches onto the sides of moutains in South America, landed on dirt runways, landed on roads in the Middle East, flown 9-12 ship Tactical formations in IFR, got many chances to get shot at. In the civilian world, I let countless students try to kill me, lived on Regional FO pay for 2 years with 2 kids, a wife,a crash pad, $800.00 child care expenses. Lived on a regional airline schedule, 10-11 days off, not commutable, schedule filled with reduced rest overnights, because the company could, flew 8 hours a day, in the Eastcoast corridor (New York, Boston, Phil, EWR), in all the weather, everyday. Whew!

From my experience as a Part 121 Captain, I would take a Commuter Turbo Prop Captain any day over a Military guy. As an FO they make the Captain's life a lot easier. They just know how to make it work. As a Captain, they know how to get the job done when no one else can. The military guys will figure it out, but it just takes them a little longer. Remember I was that military guy I'm talking about.

Now if they went to one of the Military Academys, that's where it really gets interesting. The Military Academy guys know what I mean.

Cheers!

 

[SkiFishFly]

Both Experiences are valuable

I think both civilian and military guys bring valuable experience to the table. There are things the civilian guys have lived through that I have never experienced.

You really want to work hard on an approach - try a dark a##; no horizon; 400' overcast approach to a runway that keeps changing the final approach course all the way down the chute.
When the runway can't chage the heading on you it just ain't nearly as difficult.

The airlines seem to look at what is considered a "normal" amount of flight time for the career path of the individual.

A pilot with 20 years in tactical military aviation is probably going to have around 4000 hours. A civilian who has been flying for 20 years would normally have a considerably higher amount of flight time.

 

[TGR]

Check you're ACFT flown... fricken tanker driver.

Really. Im sorry. I didnt realize.......................Its an inside joke to Sluggo.

 

[densoo]

The difference between military and civilian flying is in civilian flying your paycheck stops when you screw up.

 

[Caveman]

"As far as the training at the major airline level, I'd agree with you Draginass. The training assumes a basic level of competence from both the military and civilian pilot in the areas that you outlined above."

Excellent point. Compared to what a mil pilot has to go through to get from zero time to AC qualified I imagine the training at the airline level is pretty minimal. But, don't forget that the civilian guys also have previous experience and training too. By the time someone is offered a job at the airline level there is presumed to be a certain level of ability and experience and depending on your background and experience level some will find it easy and some will struggle. I've flown with new guys from all backgrounds (CFI, previous 121, FW mil, and RW mil). With a couple of months of line flying under their belts there is almost no difference that I can see. If there is a difference it's usually because of age and maturity more than their background.

If I were hiring pilots I would agressively seek out former mil types but not because of their pilot skills. Military folks generally color between the lines. Give them some guidance and a policy manual and they almost always will follow it to the letter unless circumstances clearly dictate otherwise. When they do deviate it's usually for good cause and they have no problem letting you know what they did and why they did it. Most are of excellent moral character (except for Squids) and their personal lives are in order. Most civilian pilots also fit this description, but there is a perception that former military pilots are all like that while a civilian may or may not fit that mold. The streotype is that a former military pilot is less likely to have a problem in training or be a problem employee.

My experience is that, to some degree, the pro-military bias is applied to all prior military applicants even if they weren't pilots. Employers use the same logic I mentioned above. In general, prior military people are consistant and a known quantity. We aren't better than pure civilians but our military background suggests we have a few characteristics that employers look for. The civilian pilot, unfortunately, isn't automatically given that same benefit of the doubt. They will be scrutinized a bit more before being given the same opportunities. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It's just the way it is.

 

[inline]

Wow! Flamebait if I ever saw it. I think you may have had a few before you wrote it. But I'll take you up on it for a bit.

One reason some employers value candidates with military time, in addition to the reasons CaptainMark cited above, is that they are a known quantity with top-notch training. My experience may be unique, but the training I have received in the military versus the training I have received at my 121 operator is better. The military has the resources to spend time and money on the pilots it trains whereas at a civilian airline cost-cutting is paramount. Time spent in training at an airline does not produce revenue therefore that time tends to be minimized. Emergency procedures are far more highly emphasized in the military training I have received than what I have experienced in the civilian world. I have no statistics to back this up, but I'd say on average, pound for pound, military pilots have more and better training than their civilian counterparts. Most military pilots are also trained in missions that are more complex than your typical airline environment (air refueling, airdrop, tactical approaches, low-level, formation, air-to-air, air-to-ground, etc). This develops situational awareness in military pilots. None of this means military pilots are better, it just means (to me) they receive better training. Of course there are some sub-par military pilots out there who have not benefited much from all of their training.

Now, on the other hand, civilian pilots, have generally flown much more frequently and have had more hours than military pilots in their peer group. They tend to have had more experience in day-to-day, airline-type operations. Most of the civilian pilots I have flown with have been outstanding and they are fantastic pilots.

What I think it comes down to is that employers know what the military is about, they know what kind of training is provided, they know what kind of product is produced and they like it. It's like when you go to McDonald's: it may not be the best burger in the world, but you go there because, no matter which McDonald's you go to, you know almost exactly what quality burger you're going to get and you like it well enough. You like it well enough to not take a chance on a new burger chain's burger.

Sigh...................here we go again. Military pilots are good, but they're not any better than a pilot with quality 121 time. They're also a " known quantity."

 

[Sluggo_63]

Really. Im sorry. I didnt realize.......................Its an inside joke to Sluggo.

How do you stand with no spine?

 

[Deuce130]

Okay, I'll take a shot at this one.

I've also done it Military and Civilian. I started out CFI-II, UPT, C-130, Commuters, Majors. In the military, I've flew HI-NDB approaches onto the sides of moutains in South America, landed on dirt runways, landed on roads in the Middle East, flown 9-12 ship Tactical formations in IFR, got many chances to get shot at. In the civilian world, I let countless students try to kill me, lived on Regional FO pay for 2 years with 2 kids, a wife,a crash pad, $800.00 child care expenses. Lived on a regional airline schedule, 10-11 days off, not commutable, schedule filled with reduced rest overnights, because the company could, flew 8 hours a day, in the Eastcoast corridor (New York, Boston, Phil, EWR), in all the weather, everyday. Whew!

From my experience as a Part 121 Captain, I would take a Commuter Turbo Prop Captain any day over a Military guy. As an FO they make the Captain's life a lot easier. They just know how to make it work. As a Captain, they know how to get the job done when no one else can. The military guys will figure it out, but it just takes them a little longer. Remember I was that military guy I'm talking about.

Now if they went to one of the Military Academys, that's where it really gets interesting. The Military Academy guys know what I mean.

Cheers!

I'm not sure I agree with you, but you're definitely the first military guy to say that you'd take civilian guys over military guys any day. You sure someone didn't hijack your account while you were away from your computer? And all this from a fellow herk driver!! Oh, the humanity....

And I was a military academy guy. Sorry to say I don't know what you mean... But, I'll assume it was another lame attempt to disparage academy grads simply b/c you weren't one yourself. Not like I haven't seen that before.

 

[Bjammin]

My 35 HK Cents

I have to say I agress with NTS on this one at least for a NEW HIRE.

When I went through training for the airlines I was absolutly shocked at how little my 3000hrs of tactical time mattered. On my first loft I didn't even know where to put my charts, I wanted my old to a kneeboard back. I had to get used to JEPP plates, I had a hard time picking up the standard ICAO radio calls, my descent planning was out to lunch, the FMS and autopilot were totally new systems to me, and everything about loadsheets, RTOW, and overall airline operations had to be learned from scratch. I called myself the "airline rock".
My simulator partner was 10 years younger then me and had over 5000hrs. He was a captian of a CRJ at the age of 22 and picked up the 744 extreamly easily. He easily passed though training and I was left far, far behind.

If I was a captain and had to choose and FO with his skills or mine. I would have to go with his, at least INITIALLY.



Now, here's the kicker. I did find that the military guys in my new hire class were much better at:

Systems: The military taught us much more about engines, aerodynamics, and overall aircraft systems. Even guys that were transfering from the 747-200 to the -400 did pooly on systems tests compared to the mil guys.

Hand flying: How offen does a civilian get to take a high performance jet up to practice stalls, approaches in bad weather, aerobatics, and landings. The most excitment I had yesturday on my 9 hour flight from Hong Kong as the relief guy was stepping from 370 to 390. On a 2 hour flight in the mil I might be the lead of a 20 ship package going in and out of Iraq with no autopilot, aerial refuling, and getting shot at. Then go back to the boat. As an mil instructor 8 landings for every 1.5 hours of flight was common place. In the airlines I'm lucky if I get 3 landings a month.

Being adaptable: I found that military guys are more used to things going wrong. Emergencies are pretty common in Tac Air and go arounds are old hat. Diverting is a big deal for the civie, but for the mil guy who has been shot at before, he won't even bat an eye and handle it extreamly well.

Thinking way ahead of the airplane: Quickness and accuracy are so important in the military and especially in Tac Air. I found that in airline training I was far more speedy while at the same time more accurate during both normal and emergency operations then the seasoned airline guy. The amount of decisions required during a mil flight are enormus and each one can lead to a very bad outcome. One wrong move at 250ft at 500kts and the world ends. In the airlines an oppertunity to even make a wrong move is hard to come by.

For a new guy the above skills are overshadowed by the lack of airline operational knowledge. However, when a guy gets 10 years under his belt and the airline thing is suitcased, the above skills will make him an outstanding captain. Former military guys that are now captains seem to think further ahead, have extreamly consistant good landings, and have overall better situational awarness. This again is my humble opinion.

Now there are bad and good in each mil and civilian group. These are just some of the generalities I have noticed. I have seen veteran mil guys be absolute bufoons and new hire civilians be rock stars, but unless you have done both for a while it's hard to see the trends and advantages of both.

 

[ChinaClipper]

The best pilots are military

but only if the were Infantry, 11B....Enlisted, platoon sgts.......no glory, no silver spoons, no cool nicknames, no sissy ascots; able, iron clad character and low key. The best! Show up, do the job, go home. BTW I am biased! Hoorahhhhhh!!!!!!!