Military Pilots Advice for their sons/daughter

[Draginass]

In the strongest terms, I would discourage any military pilot from pursuing a job in the airline industry after the military. The job (it's no longer a "profession") has deteriorated gravely. The airline managements are not going to be happy until you are flying 777s for commuter compensation. Your labor agreements are worthless when the National Mediation Board and Arbitrators are so blatantly biased again labor.

 

[SIG600]

As yesman alluded to, there is a lot of work to be had, especially in a single seat squadron, with not a lot of bodies to go around. I can't count the number of months I've flown 10-15 hours, yet worked 12+ hour days for the duration of the month. Deployments, all bets are off (however you're there TO fly). You have to be there for bigger reasons than be a stick monkey.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

In the strongest terms, I would discourage any military pilot from pursuing a job in the airline industry after the military. The job (it's no longer a "profession") has deteriorated gravely. The airline managements are not going to be happy until you are flying 777s for commuter compensation. Your labor agreements are worthless when the National Mediation Board and Arbitrators are so blatantly biased again labor.

Military guys/gals are not leaving for the airlines. Not only are the airelines not hiring, why leave a good paying job with a guranteed pension?!?! My buds who stayed all made O-5 and are making over $110k. The military wasn't for me, but you just can't beat Uncle Sam's guranteed cheese. I suppose after being reamed up the a$$ so many times, it just becomes numb.
As for me, I'll take my chances on the outside. Better to live as a starving free man than to be someone's fat beaaaaaahtch!

 

[SIG600]

Military guys/gals are not leaving for the airlines. Not only are the airelines not hiring, why leave a good paying job with a guranteed pension?!?! My buds who stayed all made O-5 and are making over $110k. The military wasn't for me, but you just can't beat Uncle Sam's guranteed cheese. I suppose after being reamed up the a$$ so many times, it just becomes numb.
As for me, I'll take my chances on the outside. Better to live as a starving free man than to be someone's fat beaaaaaahtch!

Yeah, I'd much rather be on my ass looking for work, then collecting a pension in my early 40's for the remainder of my life.

 

[BeeVee]

Jetlaggy,
Yep - Active Duty the whole time...hard to believe it's been almost 23 years since we first walked up the "Bring Me Men" ramp on that hot, July 1st, summer day back in '86.....
How about you?
BeeVee

 

[NCaviator]

Here's my advise which is mostly based on decisions I've made and what I've seen that worked out well...

Go to college and get a education in something outside of flying. Stay away from Embry Riddle, and other pilot mills that are full of empty promises and debt. Get a private pilot license on the side at a local flight school. If there's nothing that he's just that interested in and just wants to "check the box" on getting a degree, I would lean towards a 4 year college with an evening degree program. It's much cheaper and will allow him to work and pay for his school and flight training. If you have the money get your CFI and MEI.

During his Junior year in college start applying for pilot slots at Guard and Reserve unit that are located in places he might want to live. Don't get hung up on flying a particular aircraft. You do not have to wait until you have your degree in hand to get selected. If I had it to do over I would apply to C-17 reserve units. The reserves offer advantages over the guard when it comes to making money and getting a quick upgrade to AC to get that all important 1000hrs PIC turbine which is usually needed to get on at a major airline. I'm currently at a C-130 Guard unit, and I can tell first hand that it can be a struggle at times to make a consistant living even with war going on. Other than deploying to Afghanistan for 45 days to live in Hooverville and the occasional Germany deployment, good luck making a living flying around the same flag pole. The reserves are able to keep their pilots on continuous orders and my peers from pilot training are much more experienced and better compensated than I.

One more point, the reason I suggested getting the CFI and MEI is because there is approx a 2 year wait from the time you get selected and when you start pilot training. Use this time to be proactive a get a regional airline job right before you attend pilot training. Once you get on the senority list at an airline your job and flight benefits are protected under federal law. You can use flight benefits to jump seat home during breaks and your senority and pay will continue to rise even though you are on military leave for approx 3 years. By the time you come back to work you will probably be able to hold Captain and make a respectable living between your military job and your civilian job.

 

[pilotyip]

no college

Here's my advise which is mostly based on decisions I've made and what I've seen that worked out well...

Go to college and get a education in something outside of flying. Stay away from Embry Riddle, and other pilot mills that are full of empty promises and debt. Get a private pilot license on the side at a local flight school. If there's nothing that he's just that interested in and just wants to "check the box" on getting a degree, I would lean towards a 4 year college with an evening degree program. It's much cheaper and will allow him to work and pay for his school and flight training. If you have the money get your CFI and MEI.

During his Junior year in college start applying for pilot slots at Guard and Reserve unit that are located in places he might want to live. Don't get hung up on flying a particular aircraft. You do not have to wait until you have your degree in hand to get selected. If I had it to do over I would apply to C-17 reserve units. The reserves offer advantages over the guard when it comes to making money and getting a quick upgrade to AC to get that all important 1000hrs PIC turbine which is usually needed to get on at a major airline. I'm currently at a C-130 Guard unit, and I can tell first hand that it can be a struggle at times to make a consistant living even with war going on. Other than deploying to Afghanistan for 45 days to live in Hooverville and the occasional Germany deployment, good luck making a living flying around the same flag pole. The reserves are able to keep their pilots on continuous orders and my peers from pilot training are much more experienced and better compensated than I.

One more point, the reason I suggested getting the CFI and MEI is because there is approx a 2 year wait from the time you get selected and when you start pilot training. Use this time to be proactive a get a regional airline job right before you attend pilot training. Once you get on the senority list at an airline your job and flight benefits are protected under federal law. You can use flight benefits to jump seat home during breaks and your senority and pay will continue to rise even though you are on military leave for approx 3 years. By the time you come back to work you will probably be able to hold Captain and make a respectable living between your military job and your civilian job.

What do I see here, a recommendation not to go to full time college, go to evening college? Are you saying a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane? I know you need it to get into the USAF and Navy,

 

[Mooseflyer]

Military (either AD or Reserve/Guard) = right on. Great experiences, great people, meaningful work (when flying), a (relatively) honest employer, a stable paycheck. And if active duty for 20, some pretty good coin. Yes, you need a BS filter for AD, but one of the highest paid flying jobs out there these days. Moving around the country/world at the whim of Uncle Sam can get old though.

Airlines = crap. Why anyone would start a career going the civ route these days is beyond me. $hitty work for $hitty pay, moving away from where you want to live (or commute, pick the lesser of two evils). Paying your dues is supposed to pay off in theory, but not these days. Despite the above, it may not be a complete waste of time if only there were some sort of career mobility. Sadly, there isn't. Hopefully things will improve someday (and I honestly believe they will). I guess Rez is right - if you're in it for the money or quality of life, you'll likely be disappointed. Yes of course there are worse jobs out there - lots of them in fact. But is that what we really shoot for when selecting a career, to have "not the crappiest job"?

What would I do if I were young again? Go Reserve/Guard and learn a trade. Every town needs electricians, carpenters, mechanics, firefighters, etc. All of the above earn as much or more than most US MAJOR airline FO's, with less training and experience required. They also allow you to live where you desire, or to move if you want, and offer career mobilty, i.e. a lateral move. Experience means something. A firefighter in my town earns $600 per day starting salary, right out of high school and the fire academy. More than 20 years after I started flying, I still don't earn that.

 

[Mamma]

Military (either AD or Reserve/Guard) = right on. Great experiences, great people, meaningful work (when flying), a (relatively) honest employer, a stable paycheck. And if active duty for 20, some pretty good coin. Yes, you need a BS filter for AD, but one of the highest paid flying jobs out there these days. Moving around the country/world at the whim of Uncle Sam can get old though.

Airlines = crap. Why anyone would start a career going the civ route these days is beyond me. $hitty work for $hitty pay, moving away from where you want to live (or commute, pick the lesser of two evils). Paying your dues is supposed to pay off in theory, but not these days. Despite the above, it may not be a complete waste of time if only there were some sort of career mobility. Sadly, there isn't. Hopefully things will improve someday (and I honestly believe they will). I guess Rez is right - if you're in it for the money or quality of life, you'll likely be disappointed. Yes of course there are worse jobs out there - lots of them in fact. But is that what we really shoot for when selecting a career, to have "not the crappiest job"?

What would I do if I were young again? Go Reserve/Guard and learn a trade. Every town needs electricians, carpenters, mechanics, firefighters, etc. All of the above earn as much or more than most US MAJOR airline FO's, with less training and experience required. They also allow you to live where you desire, or to move if you want, and offer career mobilty, i.e. a lateral move. Experience means something. A firefighter in my town earns $600 per day starting salary, right out of high school and the fire academy. More than 20 years after I started flying, I still don't earn that.

Could not have said it better!

 

[pilotyip]

What would I do if I were young again? Go Reserve/Guard and learn a trade. Every town needs electricians, carpenters, mechanics, firefighters, etc. All of the above earn as much or more than most US MAJOR airline FO's, with less training and experience required. They also allow you to live where you desire, or to move if you want, and offer career mobilty, i.e. a lateral move. Experience means something. A firefighter in my town earns $600 per day starting salary, right out of high school and the fire academy. More than 20 years after I started flying, I still don't earn that.

Do I hear it again, someone saying you can be successful in life without a college degree?

 

[NCaviator]

I did not say you don't need a 4 year degree. I was only advocating that many public and private colleges offer the same degree at night and it's much easier and cheaper. This is what I did after my freshman year and it worked out great. I had no debt from college or flying.

 

[Mooseflyer]

Do I hear it again, someone saying you can be successful in life without a college degree?

Of course you can be successful in life without a degree. See my career examples above. I think most folks believe that it's tough to be successful in aviation without a degree. That, IMO, will change in the future...

 

[pilotyip]

I did not say you don't need a 4 year degree. I was only advocating that many public and private colleges offer the same degree at night and it's much easier and cheaper. This is what I did after my freshman year and it worked out great. I had no debt from college or flying.

But what about all the advocates of "You must attend a 4-yr college full time" Could they be wrong? I have been beat up here by many times for saying anything against the almighty "full 4-yr degree".

 

[Bjammin]

I think it's a very tough question to answer, because as you can see from the above posts, career and flying fufillment truly depends on the individual.
If your kid is truly into military flying then if he goes civilian he may always regret not having the chance to go Mach 3 with his hair on fire. If he becomes an airline pilot he will listlen to the war stories of others and always wonder. If he loves military flying he can make a good career of that for 20 years, get out, and then decide to do whatever, having had some amazing training in leadership and experiences you can never imagine.
Having said that, if airline flying is the ultimate goal you have to consider your options caefully. I had great military experiences, but fly with guys younger then me that are 747 captains and will make millions more then me over their airline career lifetime. Every year delay in getting on with an airline is a year you don't make the top salary at the END of your carrer.
My choises worked out about perfectly. I enlisted in the USCG out of High School and had the GI bill pay for some of my college while earning military years towards my retirement. I went to Embry-Riddle and got an Aero-sci degree as well as my CFII. Both have helped me throughout my carrer. I got picked up for the Navy, went to AOCS, got selected for jets, got winged, flew EA-6B's in the fleet for 5 years and also got some F-18 time.
I then was a T-45 flight instructor for 5 years and was lucky not to have to do a non-flying job. I joined the reserve unit at my squadron and became a 747-400 FO with a major overseas airline 4 years ago. I have over 21 years with the military and will have more then 25 years with this airline, hopefully. I LOVE flying for both a tactical reserve squadron and as a FO flying 74's over the pond.
It all worked out, but for many this road can be filled with potholes and many change their careers all together.
All this advice from guys that have actually been down these roads is a great way to get information and then get into an intelligent discussion with your son.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

If someone really wants to enter this industry then have at it. I would advise anyone looking into our industry to really consider doing something else.
It's been a blast for me (USCG/Army AD, Army Guard, airline, light corp, and fractional now) rotors, props and jets, but that's me. Many deployments, crash pads and now very nice hotels. It certainly is an interesting industry, but it is what one makes it.
They them to earn a degree in something other then aviation. Have something to fall back on if the medical is lost.
I think the guard route is the best, but take the quickest way into the cockpit whether it's guard or AD and have fun. Seems all my guard buddies have units that will deploy them as much as they want and that'll sure build experience. Great networking abilities too.
This industry in a post-9/11 time is not what it once was and if they don't know any different then they'll do just fine.
Good luck!!

 

[puck_11]

I'm a newly winged naval aviator and I wouldn't have it any other way. I graduated from UND and did the aviation degree thing (which was fun, but outside of aviation doesn't mean a thing). While I was still in college I met with a Hornet guy from my school who told me that he had been out for about 5 years. None of his friends from college even gave a second thought about flying military, they were all after that coveted CRJ slot and didn't want to deal with the military. After about 5 years most of them were burnt out, only half of them were still in the game, most wished they had done the military thing and were quite jealous of the type of flying that we do. Fast forward a few years, I've been in for three and can tell you that a lot of my friends are getting out of the aviation business. And all of my friends were the typical, I just want to fly, I don't care what I get paid, I'll work my tail off, etc.

Typical quote from a senior/retired military pilot to young new guy: "I'd trade places with you in a heartbeat (but not pay), and you'll never regret joining the military to fly."

Typical quote from a senior/retired pilot to new guy trying to go into civilian aviation "(sound of sucking breath in and making twisted face) Well you better have a good backup."

I know because I was both of these young kids getting this advice.

 

[pilotyip]

I'm a newly winged naval aviator and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Typical quote from a senior/retired military pilot to young new guy: "I'd trade places with you in a heartbeat (but not pay), and you'll never regret joining the military to fly." Typical quote from a senior/retired pilot to new guy trying to go into civilian aviation "(sound of sucking breath in and making twisted face) Well you better have a good backup."

Flying for the Military, I think particularly the Navy, gives you skills beyond the cockpit. These skills will allow you to succeed outside of the military and the cockpit. You will find if you want to go the MBA route at a top school when leaving the Navy, these schools are very receptive to your management and leadership skills. So flying for the Navy is really the best of both worlds and gives you many options.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

I think the degree card is waaaay overplayed but that's the way the game is played now. Smarts trumps honor and integrity in today's world. Years ago it used to be just get a degree. Now you the pundits say get a masters, et.al. Keep the liberal college professors gainfully employed.

 

[Mamma]

I am fully on board with the idea that the 4-year degree should not be a deciding factor. When I went to college I would have to say 80% of the guys in my fraternity (if not more) had no idea what they wanted to do. They just got some useless business degree or political science degree then went on to do something totally unrelated. What a waste of money, time and liver/brain cells. We had no perspective to really understand what the professors were saying also. I think the model should be like this: Graduate high school, get hired by someone and let them train you. If you show potential for management or want to expand your horizons later down the road, then go to college. Now if you want to be something specialized like a doctor or biologist, then by all means go to college, but I think many jobs out there do not really need one to have a college degree.

 

[SIG600]

College isn't about getting schooling for a particular skill set, it's about proving that you're self motivated enough to further your education and succeed at it. It tells an employer you're a self starter, and won't need supervision to get things done. In a world of pilots that are a dime a dozen needing jobs, I'm sorry but you need to set yourself apart from the crowd. If I have 2 pilots side by side with equal flight experience, one with a degree and one without, I'm hiring the guy with the education every time.