Military Pilots Advice for their sons/daughter

[check six]

For all military trained pilots who are now airline pilots:

Would you advise your son/daughter to pursue a military flying career and then later pursue the airline job or stay civilian and go directly for airline flying?

What will be the need in 10 years for human piloted aircraft in USN/USAF for fighter or tanker community in light of the uav and space communities taking on a bigger role?

I have a son who has caught the flying bug and is interested in military aviation. Trying to figure out how to advise him.

Thanks,

Check Six

 

[Birdstrike]

I'll offer a brief comment ref military considerations. Insure he understands, Check, that his military service will continue for as long as he's obligated, whether he flies or not. That's not necessarily a disadvantage; should he lose his medical, the military will continue to offer him a challenging career, albeit in a specialty other than flying. With the advent of UAVs, that would seem to me to be an ideal job for an experienced pilot who's lost his medical. Additionally, remind him that most possibly and most likely, less than half of his 20 years, should he stay that long, will be in the cockpit. Once he makes the field-grades, (Major/LtCol) unless he's fortunate enough to command, he will pull his share of staff/joint tours where he'll be flying his cubicle from a Pentagon or other HQ perch. As long as he's fine with that, mixing flying with staff jobs and being willing to deploy overseas half a dozen times, maybe less, he'll get the best taxpayer funded training, meet the greatest people, have the most challenging assignments, and operate some of the best equipment available. Plus our country needs our best and brightest to step forth and volunteer. Best wishes to him...

 

[RedDogC130]

Do not forget about the Guard and Reserve route. For those like myself that knew from day 1 I wanted to do the airline deal it works great. I found out about the Guard well after I started flying civilian. Most guys I knew during pilot training, the airline gig is very foreign...they know a bunch of people go do it but not really what the industry is about. I had the benefit of both parents working in the industry before and I knew the ups and downs getting into it. You will never know if you made the right move until it is over and look back.

 

[Scrapdog]

I thoroughly enjoyed my time on active duty and still think it's the best route to develop a well rounded aviator. If he desires to fly fighters - tell him to always shoot for it and never settle for anything else. There isn't a more rewarding type of flying than (IMHO of course) flying supersonic and pulling some G's - and getting paid for it. And of course you can always fly fatties in the airlines but you never can fly fighters anywhere else. This coming from a guy that does both.

 

[RedDogC130]

I thoroughly enjoyed my time on active duty and still think it's the best route to develop a well rounded aviator. If he desires to fly fighters - tell him to always shoot for it and never settle for anything else. There isn't a more rewarding type of flying than (IMHO of course) flying supersonic and pulling some G's - and getting paid for it. And of course you can always fly fatties in the airlines but you never can fly fighters anywhere else. This coming from a guy that does both.

Do you really want to get into what is the most rewarding flying.....this can open a whole can of worms....Scrapdog were you full AD or a Guard/Reserve baby just on AD for training?

From my point of view as a Guard baby, you could not pay me to be on active duty full time....too much stupid b.s. now if I was out of a job...different story.

 

[Scrapdog]

Do you really want to get into what is the most rewarding flying.....this can open a whole can of worms....Scrapdog were you full AD or a Guard/Reserve baby just on AD for training?

From my point of view as a Guard baby, you could not pay me to be on active duty full time....too much stupid b.s. now if I was out of a job...different story.

Full AD.

 

[Mamma]

Here is my two cents on your questions. You can PM me if you want more details.

For all military trained pilots who are now airline pilots:

Would you advise your son/daughter to pursue a military flying career and then later pursue the airline job or stay civilian and go directly for airline flying?

I would advise the military route for anyone. As an officer you get leadership experience it would take years to get on the civilian side. As far as flying goes, I would totally recommend it. If they can land a guard or reserve gig that would be best. My advice is to get a degree or interest they can use outside of flying. The civilian flying world is very volatile and having a fall-back plan is essential.

What will be the need in 10 years for human piloted aircraft in USN/USAF for fighter or tanker community in light of the uav and space communities taking on a bigger role?

You can Google the answer to this. I am sure you will find many opinions. But, in my opinion as technology develops, opportunities in fighters/bombers will decrease dramatically.

I have a son who has caught the flying bug and is interested in military aviation. Trying to figure out how to advise him.

Thanks,

Check Six

 

[DOVPILOT]

What will be the need in 10 years for human piloted aircraft

In ten years the world may not even be around (Armageddon), so live day by day. In ten years the military maybe back at prior levels of strength.

I have do do the civilain route do to a surgery, the climb from the bottom of the regionals is shear misery. Your son, nor anybody, should never have to endure this crap.

 

[BeeVee]

My son is in the same boat....has the flying bug and asks me monthly what I think he should do....it's a tough call....
I went the USAFA route and will complete my 20 next May (2010). I can honestly say I have enjoyed most ALL aspects of my military career. Despite previous posts opinion, I have been able to fly 18 of my 20 years in the Air Force (and still made Lt Col to boot). My recommendation to your son would be to follow his heart. If he wants to fly and to serve his country, go USAFA or USNA (or ROTC), kick butt at flight school, and enjoy some of the most rewarding flying his is likely to ever do.

BeeVee

 

[Andy Neill]

I would not go in the military for any other reason than wanting to serve. This is a mindset issue. The fact that you may come out of the military with a good set of credentials for airline work is a side benefit but should not be the focus of time in the services.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Andy makes a good point you have to first want to serve as a member of the Armed forces Flying comes Second. As there is a good chance while he's Applying if its thru ROTC that there may not be many Pilot slots for his graduating year. Pilot Hiring goes in cycles and it is impossible to time it.

I had a few friends that did AFROTC and were committed to 4 years going into there junior year in College and unfortunately during there senior year slots were few and far ended up in a Hole instead of the sky babysitting some Minutemen III but it is all what you make of it and it can be a very rewarding profession.

 

[RedDogC130]

Like I said...if you want to fly and only fly...go Guard and Reserve. If you want to fly but are willing to serve in any other capacity if it does not go your way...go Active Duty. Do not discount the other braches of service, Navy, Army, Marine...and Coast Guard all have flying branches...but going AD has the risk of getting another job...just my view on it.

 

[pilotyip]

Not necessarily true

I'll offer a brief comment ref military considerations. Insure he understands, Check, that his military service will continue for as long as he's obligated, whether he flies or not. That's not necessarily a disadvantage; should he lose his medical, the military will continue to offer him a challenging career, albeit in a specialty other than flying. With the advent of UAVs, that would seem to me to be an ideal job for an experienced pilot who's lost his medical. Additionally, remind him that most possibly and most likely, less than half of his 20 years, should he stay that long, will be in the cockpit. Once he makes the field-grades, (Major/LtCol) unless he's fortunate enough to command, he will pull his share of staff/joint tours where he'll be flying his cubicle from a Pentagon or other HQ perch. As long as he's fine with that, mixing flying with staff jobs and being willing to deploy overseas half a dozen times, maybe less, he'll get the best taxpayer funded training, meet the greatest people, have the most challenging assignments, and operate some of the best equipment available. Plus our country needs our best and brightest to step forth and volunteer. Best wishes to him...

Don't forget there is no guarantee of a full career. The military is one of the most fickle employers in the world. Talk to pilots who experienced the post Vietnam draw down. "I don't care if you want to stay in after 11 years, we don't want you anymore, get out" RIF, drawdown, or 60% fail to promote to O-4, whatever you want to call it. Same thing in 1992 a peace dividend after the close of the cold war. Even military guys need a plan B.

 

[Birdstrike]

Don't forget there is no guarantee of a full career. The military is one of the most fickle employers in the world...

True. But if job security is a major concern, and it was for me, I'd still advise leaning military. My airline friends & neighbors in/around PTC, GA, (Eastern, TWA, Delta) have gone through furlough hell with severe tolls on their families. The Guard/Reserve route offers a lot of the best of both worlds, as Scrapdog reminded, but they're not your father's reserve units anymore either since cyclical deployments are now routine.

 

[Dr. Rumack]

True. But if job security is a major concern, and it was for me, I'd still advise leaning military. My airline friends & neighbors in/around PTC, GA, (Eastern, TWA, Delta) have gone through furlough hell with severe tolls on their families. The Guard/Reserve route offers a lot of the best of both worlds, as Scrapdog reminded, but they're not your father's reserve units anymore either since cyclical deployments are now routine.

Bingo. Ten years active Navy then four at America West. The first thing I did when finding out I was going to be furloughed was start sending out apps to Guard units. One of them worked and my family is going to be ok because of it.
I can honestly say that I am 50/50 on which career I preferred and am looking forward to going back in.

 

[transpac]

What's the time commitment for military flight training nowadays? If its long term, that would affect the advice I'd be handing out. Also, what's the promotion percentage to O-4 for pilots?

 

[BeeVee]

10 year commitment AFTER graduation from SUPT.
Promotion rates to Major are upwards of 80-90% (as long as you keep your nose clean, get your Squadron Officers School done, etc.) Currently, as long as you make Major, your "high year tenure" is 20 years. This means you will be allowed to retire from the Service if you so desire.

BeeVee

 

[SIG600]

The commitment for the Navy right now is 8 years for Tacair, 6 for Rotary.

As a general rule of thumb I discourage guys from using the military as a stepping stone to an airline career. Once people find out, they'll walk all over you. Plus as you know it's a HUGE commitment, and a LOT of work with no guarantees. The desire to serve and make a difference IMO needs to be the driving force. This coming from a guy that left commercial aviation to Fly Navy. I can tell you with almost certainty I will never go back to commercial aviation or trying to fly for the air lines. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with joining, serving your commitment with distinction, then punching out and moving on. Again, as I'm sure you've told him (like any company or corporation) they're looking to hire future leaders and people that are there to do 20 years, not use it as a stepping stone to something else, however a 20 year commitment would be hard to sell, hence why they start throwing money and other offers at guys when their time is up.

 

[Jetlaggy]

My son is in the same boat....has the flying bug and asks me monthly what I think he should do....it's a tough call....
I went the USAFA route and will complete my 20 next May (2010). I can honestly say I have enjoyed most ALL aspects of my military career. Despite previous posts opinion, I have been able to fly 18 of my 20 years in the Air Force (and still made Lt Col to boot). My recommendation to your son would be to follow his heart. If he wants to fly and to serve his country, go USAFA or USNA (or ROTC), kick butt at flight school, and enjoy some of the most rewarding flying his is likely to ever do.

BeeVee

Did you stay active duty the entire time?

Mighty 90

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

The "flying bug".... oh, I remember those days. I would have given my left nut to fly. All I wanted to do was fly airplanes. That goal was what got me through college, all the ROTC b.s., and kept me out of trouble. If all you want to do is fly, I don't recommend the active duty route. They will drill in the "officer first, pilot second" b.s. until the day you leave/retire. They are right, you are an officer first, but what is the definition of a good officer according to whom?!?! A yesman is what they really want. If you can play the game and handle the "created work", you'll do just fine. Not many of fellow pilots swallowed this pill. Hence, a mass exodus when the airlines were/are hiring. Just remember, you'll have to bust your a$$ for the man just to fly your 15-40 hours a month, depending the airframe. Ofcourse, more during a real war. Bottom line is if you don't mind working 12 hours days in the office and fly when you can, go active duty. Maybe the times have changed since I've been out, but I doubt the bull$hit's gone.

I'd look into the guard/reserve and even they are becoming much like active duty nowadays, but still better than active duty. My .02.

 

[Draginass]

In the strongest terms, I would discourage any military pilot from pursuing a job in the airline industry after the military. The job (it's no longer a "profession") has deteriorated gravely. The airline managements are not going to be happy until you are flying 777s for commuter compensation. Your labor agreements are worthless when the National Mediation Board and Arbitrators are so blatantly biased again labor.

 

[SIG600]

As yesman alluded to, there is a lot of work to be had, especially in a single seat squadron, with not a lot of bodies to go around. I can't count the number of months I've flown 10-15 hours, yet worked 12+ hour days for the duration of the month. Deployments, all bets are off (however you're there TO fly). You have to be there for bigger reasons than be a stick monkey.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

In the strongest terms, I would discourage any military pilot from pursuing a job in the airline industry after the military. The job (it's no longer a "profession") has deteriorated gravely. The airline managements are not going to be happy until you are flying 777s for commuter compensation. Your labor agreements are worthless when the National Mediation Board and Arbitrators are so blatantly biased again labor.

Military guys/gals are not leaving for the airlines. Not only are the airelines not hiring, why leave a good paying job with a guranteed pension?!?! My buds who stayed all made O-5 and are making over $110k. The military wasn't for me, but you just can't beat Uncle Sam's guranteed cheese. I suppose after being reamed up the a$$ so many times, it just becomes numb.
As for me, I'll take my chances on the outside. Better to live as a starving free man than to be someone's fat beaaaaaahtch!

 

[SIG600]

Military guys/gals are not leaving for the airlines. Not only are the airelines not hiring, why leave a good paying job with a guranteed pension?!?! My buds who stayed all made O-5 and are making over $110k. The military wasn't for me, but you just can't beat Uncle Sam's guranteed cheese. I suppose after being reamed up the a$$ so many times, it just becomes numb.
As for me, I'll take my chances on the outside. Better to live as a starving free man than to be someone's fat beaaaaaahtch!

Yeah, I'd much rather be on my ass looking for work, then collecting a pension in my early 40's for the remainder of my life.

 

[BeeVee]

Jetlaggy,
Yep - Active Duty the whole time...hard to believe it's been almost 23 years since we first walked up the "Bring Me Men" ramp on that hot, July 1st, summer day back in '86.....
How about you?
BeeVee

 

[NCaviator]

Here's my advise which is mostly based on decisions I've made and what I've seen that worked out well...

Go to college and get a education in something outside of flying. Stay away from Embry Riddle, and other pilot mills that are full of empty promises and debt. Get a private pilot license on the side at a local flight school. If there's nothing that he's just that interested in and just wants to "check the box" on getting a degree, I would lean towards a 4 year college with an evening degree program. It's much cheaper and will allow him to work and pay for his school and flight training. If you have the money get your CFI and MEI.

During his Junior year in college start applying for pilot slots at Guard and Reserve unit that are located in places he might want to live. Don't get hung up on flying a particular aircraft. You do not have to wait until you have your degree in hand to get selected. If I had it to do over I would apply to C-17 reserve units. The reserves offer advantages over the guard when it comes to making money and getting a quick upgrade to AC to get that all important 1000hrs PIC turbine which is usually needed to get on at a major airline. I'm currently at a C-130 Guard unit, and I can tell first hand that it can be a struggle at times to make a consistant living even with war going on. Other than deploying to Afghanistan for 45 days to live in Hooverville and the occasional Germany deployment, good luck making a living flying around the same flag pole. The reserves are able to keep their pilots on continuous orders and my peers from pilot training are much more experienced and better compensated than I.

One more point, the reason I suggested getting the CFI and MEI is because there is approx a 2 year wait from the time you get selected and when you start pilot training. Use this time to be proactive a get a regional airline job right before you attend pilot training. Once you get on the senority list at an airline your job and flight benefits are protected under federal law. You can use flight benefits to jump seat home during breaks and your senority and pay will continue to rise even though you are on military leave for approx 3 years. By the time you come back to work you will probably be able to hold Captain and make a respectable living between your military job and your civilian job.

 

[pilotyip]

no college

Here's my advise which is mostly based on decisions I've made and what I've seen that worked out well...

Go to college and get a education in something outside of flying. Stay away from Embry Riddle, and other pilot mills that are full of empty promises and debt. Get a private pilot license on the side at a local flight school. If there's nothing that he's just that interested in and just wants to "check the box" on getting a degree, I would lean towards a 4 year college with an evening degree program. It's much cheaper and will allow him to work and pay for his school and flight training. If you have the money get your CFI and MEI.

During his Junior year in college start applying for pilot slots at Guard and Reserve unit that are located in places he might want to live. Don't get hung up on flying a particular aircraft. You do not have to wait until you have your degree in hand to get selected. If I had it to do over I would apply to C-17 reserve units. The reserves offer advantages over the guard when it comes to making money and getting a quick upgrade to AC to get that all important 1000hrs PIC turbine which is usually needed to get on at a major airline. I'm currently at a C-130 Guard unit, and I can tell first hand that it can be a struggle at times to make a consistant living even with war going on. Other than deploying to Afghanistan for 45 days to live in Hooverville and the occasional Germany deployment, good luck making a living flying around the same flag pole. The reserves are able to keep their pilots on continuous orders and my peers from pilot training are much more experienced and better compensated than I.

One more point, the reason I suggested getting the CFI and MEI is because there is approx a 2 year wait from the time you get selected and when you start pilot training. Use this time to be proactive a get a regional airline job right before you attend pilot training. Once you get on the senority list at an airline your job and flight benefits are protected under federal law. You can use flight benefits to jump seat home during breaks and your senority and pay will continue to rise even though you are on military leave for approx 3 years. By the time you come back to work you will probably be able to hold Captain and make a respectable living between your military job and your civilian job.

What do I see here, a recommendation not to go to full time college, go to evening college? Are you saying a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane? I know you need it to get into the USAF and Navy,

 

[Mooseflyer]

Military (either AD or Reserve/Guard) = right on. Great experiences, great people, meaningful work (when flying), a (relatively) honest employer, a stable paycheck. And if active duty for 20, some pretty good coin. Yes, you need a BS filter for AD, but one of the highest paid flying jobs out there these days. Moving around the country/world at the whim of Uncle Sam can get old though.

Airlines = crap. Why anyone would start a career going the civ route these days is beyond me. $hitty work for $hitty pay, moving away from where you want to live (or commute, pick the lesser of two evils). Paying your dues is supposed to pay off in theory, but not these days. Despite the above, it may not be a complete waste of time if only there were some sort of career mobility. Sadly, there isn't. Hopefully things will improve someday (and I honestly believe they will). I guess Rez is right - if you're in it for the money or quality of life, you'll likely be disappointed. Yes of course there are worse jobs out there - lots of them in fact. But is that what we really shoot for when selecting a career, to have "not the crappiest job"?

What would I do if I were young again? Go Reserve/Guard and learn a trade. Every town needs electricians, carpenters, mechanics, firefighters, etc. All of the above earn as much or more than most US MAJOR airline FO's, with less training and experience required. They also allow you to live where you desire, or to move if you want, and offer career mobilty, i.e. a lateral move. Experience means something. A firefighter in my town earns $600 per day starting salary, right out of high school and the fire academy. More than 20 years after I started flying, I still don't earn that.

 

[Mamma]

Military (either AD or Reserve/Guard) = right on. Great experiences, great people, meaningful work (when flying), a (relatively) honest employer, a stable paycheck. And if active duty for 20, some pretty good coin. Yes, you need a BS filter for AD, but one of the highest paid flying jobs out there these days. Moving around the country/world at the whim of Uncle Sam can get old though.

Airlines = crap. Why anyone would start a career going the civ route these days is beyond me. $hitty work for $hitty pay, moving away from where you want to live (or commute, pick the lesser of two evils). Paying your dues is supposed to pay off in theory, but not these days. Despite the above, it may not be a complete waste of time if only there were some sort of career mobility. Sadly, there isn't. Hopefully things will improve someday (and I honestly believe they will). I guess Rez is right - if you're in it for the money or quality of life, you'll likely be disappointed. Yes of course there are worse jobs out there - lots of them in fact. But is that what we really shoot for when selecting a career, to have "not the crappiest job"?

What would I do if I were young again? Go Reserve/Guard and learn a trade. Every town needs electricians, carpenters, mechanics, firefighters, etc. All of the above earn as much or more than most US MAJOR airline FO's, with less training and experience required. They also allow you to live where you desire, or to move if you want, and offer career mobilty, i.e. a lateral move. Experience means something. A firefighter in my town earns $600 per day starting salary, right out of high school and the fire academy. More than 20 years after I started flying, I still don't earn that.

Could not have said it better!

 

[pilotyip]

What would I do if I were young again? Go Reserve/Guard and learn a trade. Every town needs electricians, carpenters, mechanics, firefighters, etc. All of the above earn as much or more than most US MAJOR airline FO's, with less training and experience required. They also allow you to live where you desire, or to move if you want, and offer career mobilty, i.e. a lateral move. Experience means something. A firefighter in my town earns $600 per day starting salary, right out of high school and the fire academy. More than 20 years after I started flying, I still don't earn that.

Do I hear it again, someone saying you can be successful in life without a college degree?