Midwest Stops Flying (it's own planes)

[WayBack]

Are you a rep. pilot? If so, I hope your attitude is the minority because it disgusts me. If you think $37/hr is even remotely acceptable to fly any aircraft(much less a 100 seater) you are delusional. This is not a hobby that people do for fun. It is a job that requires great skill, judgement and responsibility and should be compensated accordingly. I suggest if you are a pilot to leave the industry because your reasoning sounds alot like the SCABS of the past.

That's the problem with the industry. They've lowered the requirements to get hired and now you have guys who have left their first career to live out their "dreams" as an airline pilot.
So now you have these guys who have made all their money in another field, coming to the airlines and willing to fly the airplane for free.
Also these spoiled like punks who mommy and daddy paid for everything, and they don't have any bills to pay, so it's ok. They're the big airline pilot now!

 

[planedriver]

If it isn't just name calling what else do you plan to do while taking this stand of yours?

They didn't just replace staff. The airline was bought, the unprofitable airframes and associated high priced staff were replaced. That does suck but it isn't as simple as you would like to believe.

I think you are the one that needs to wake up and stop living in the past. You need to accept the current reality of what a career as an airline pilot looks like.

If you want to make money you should become a plumber or start a business.

Dude, are you a product of incest? This happened way before Midwest was bought. Remember how they fired 75% of their pilots to bring in you little scabs before there was ever any word of Republic buying them? Republic pilots should have stood up right there and said no way, we won't hurt our brothers and sisters this way. Instead, you peed your pants in jubilation. Congratulations, you might get the chance to fly an Airbus for $37 an hour!
ALPA needs to grow some balls, team up with all of the independent unions create a new definition of scab or a new word to describe your actions with equally harsh connotations and block you little bitches from every other airline's jumpseat and block you from ever getting a job anywhere else. In other words everyone needs to team up, take a stand and treat you like the scabs you are.
Oh, and I am leaving the industry to go make money but I shouldn't have to. It is because scabs like you that I have to.

 

[BUDDHA145]

The only question I have is who is next?

Airtran!! maybe, I mean who knows. I don't think theres anyother regional out there with extra $$$$ and hungry for fresh flesh!!

 

[The Drizzle]

Republic pilots should have stood up right there and said no way, we won't hurt our brothers and sisters this way. Instead, you peed your pants in jubilation. Congratulations, you might get the chance to fly an Airbus for $37 an hour!

I've kept pretty mum about this subject because I don't like what's happening here, but I'm sick of the double standard. You should be enraged at the Midwest pilot group just as much as you are at the RAH group. Why didn't they stand up right there and shut the place down? Why didn't they stand up for SkyWay? Who the ******************** are you guys to demand that we small time players and pawns step up as if we were the Titans when the Titans refuse to stand up themselves?

You goons would have more ammo for your scab jihad if we were hiring into those positions, we weren't. The MidEx move was a move of desperation on our management's part to keep a few airframes flying. Our "benevolent" leaders did what they saw fit. So did MidEx's, sucks to be all of us.

The instant I figure a way to make roughly what I make right now, outside aviation, I'm out of this piece.

 

[Flyerdan]

Dude, are you a product of incest? This happened way before Midwest was bought. Remember how they fired 75% of their pilots to bring in you little scabs before there was ever any word of Republic buying them? Republic pilots should have stood up right there and said no way, we won't hurt our brothers and sisters this way. Instead, you peed your pants in jubilation. Congratulations, you might get the chance to fly an Airbus for $37 an hour!
ALPA needs to grow some balls, team up with all of the independent unions create a new definition of scab or a new word to describe your actions with equally harsh connotations and block you little bitches from every other airline's jumpseat and block you from ever getting a job anywhere else. In other words everyone needs to team up, take a stand and treat you like the scabs you are.
Oh, and I am leaving the industry to go make money but I shouldn't have to. It is because scabs like you that I have to.

You should leave and very soon. You appear to be unstable and unfit to fly much more than a single engine, fixed gear (possibly only sport category) aircraft.

And I don't fly for RAH but I don't blame them for the current status of the inductry like you do.

 

[kf4amu]

They didn't just replace staff. The airline was bought, the unprofitable airframes and associated high priced staff were replaced.

They are only high priced because **************************************** will fly similar airplanes for 37 bucks an hour. Tops.

Are they really high priced, or is the company's pilots that took them over very underpriced?

 

[Full of LUV]

Senior Midex pilots should have stopped this....

I've kept pretty mum about this subject because I don't like what's happening here, but I'm sick of the double standard. You should be enraged at the Midwest pilot group just as much as you are at the RAH group. Why didn't they stand up right there and shut the place down? Why didn't they stand up for SkyWay? Who the ******************** are you guys to demand that we small time players and pawns step up as if we were the Titans when the Titans refuse to stand up themselves?

You goons would have more ammo for your scab jihad if we were hiring into those positions, we weren't. The MidEx move was a move of desperation on our management's part to keep a few airframes flying. Our "benevolent" leaders did what they saw fit. So did MidEx's, sucks to be all of us.

The instant I figure a way to make roughly what I make right now, outside aviation, I'm out of this piece.

Have no dog in this squabble, but as an outsider, Midex pilots should have shut the place down the week after it was announced the outsourcing was to begin, instead all of the senior pilots just put their head in the sand as the bottom half was furloughed and thought, "whew, glad it wasn't me"... well now it's them as well. Too bad, really....

 

[Captain Morgan]

I've kept pretty mum about this subject because I don't like what's happening here, but I'm sick of the double standard. You should be enraged at the Midwest pilot group just as much as you are at the RAH group. Why didn't they stand up right there and shut the place down? Why didn't they stand up for SkyWay? Who the ******************** are you guys to demand that we small time players and pawns step up as if we were the Titans when the Titans refuse to stand up themselves?

You goons would have more ammo for your scab jihad if we were hiring into those positions, we weren't. The MidEx move was a move of desperation on our management's part to keep a few airframes flying. Our "benevolent" leaders did what they saw fit. So did MidEx's, sucks to be all of us.

The instant I figure a way to make roughly what I make right now, outside aviation, I'm out of this piece.

One of the more intelligent posts around here. Full of LUV too. It takes two... to... Ta Ta Tango...

 

[dougdrvr]

http://www.alpa.tv/DesktopModules/UltraVideoGallery/UltraVideoGallery.swf?vId=281&portalId=14

 

[B.T.Justice]

RJET's war chest is down to less than $150m, and almost half of that is restricted. Midwest and Frontier can burn through that easily in a bad quarter.

 

[Minimaniac]

Ok, people. Stop for a minute and look at how the combination of RAH and Midwest is any different than mergers past.

In any merger, pilots stay on their own equipment until a seniority integration happens. Once integrated, pilots are permitted to fly aircraft from the
"other" carrier as seniority allows, and as any fence restrictions dictate.

In this merger, pilots are still assigned to their own equipment until the seniority integration takes place. Once it does, Midwest pilots will be able to fly RAH (pre-merger) aircraft, just like any other integration. Midwest pilots may even be able to fly the Airbus... it all depends on how the integration goes and what kind of fences F9 and RAH and Lynx establish.

The ONLY reason Midwest pilots and Flight attendants are currently on the street is that their own aircraft were returned to Boeing, and until a seniority list merger is complete, they cannot train on and of the Embraers. The process IS NO DIFFERENT than any other merger. What is different is that the 717 fleet went away before an integration was complete.

The 717 began disappearing before RAH bought Midwest. The planes left on a schedule that did not allow the seniority list integration process to happen between deal closing and fleet termination. Legal hurdles are just that- they slow down the process that allows Midwest pilots to be integrated.

Midwest contracted with RAH for those initial 170's AFTER Midwest lost its leases with Boeing for 16 of the 717's. We pilots will never know exactly what happened, but the most informed and level headed people I have talked to (actual YX pilots) acknowledge that Midwest management tried to play hardball with Boeing and lost. Midwest has not made lease payments for eight months, and had some success negotiating new, reduced payments, but then tried to push the line even further with Boeing and Boeing walked away. Why did MIdwest do that? Was it just a bad decision? Did TGP have a hand in it? Was there some backroom deal that aimed at sabotaging the lease negotiations? Who knows. But RAH pilots and Midwest pilots did not contribute in any way.

When the 16 inital leases were lost, Midwest went looking for some type of fleet replacement to keep the schedule and system flying. It is no secret that RAH has recently lost work for 12 170's that were flying for Frontier. And no doubt, Bedford had approached Midwest about any oppotunity to employ those 12 aircraft. But, Bedford tried to drum up any business he could. Every carrier was approached with an offer to put those 12 E170's to work. Bedford didn't care who those planes flew for, as long as they were employed and the terms of service and payment were not completely unreasonable. It just so happened that the only airline who was honestly in need of lift at that time was Midwest. The deal was struck, and in terms that were considerably worse (in the eyes of Bedford) than any previosuly signed capacity agreement. And, the deal was signed with a company that had begun to show serious financial strain (regardless of whether is was management incompetence or TGP interference, or whether someone was cooking the books to hide money). It was a very risky deal for RAH.

RAH would much rahter have kept those 12 planes with Frontier and never had to deal with Midwest. The terms that RAH flew for MIdwest were risky enough that RAH would never have gone and purchased new aircraft to meet the needs of Midwest. RAH flew those 12 E170's for Midwest because they were fairly desperate for employment. Midwest contracted with RAH because they were, through no fault of RAH or Midwest pilots, desperate for airframes on short notice. The deal was signed, and it was really an open ended deal, with rather unprecendented terms that conveyed the uncertainty of both airlines in the future of the deal and the desired outcome. RAH would fly for Midwest. But Midwest could buy the planes off of RAH and use their own pilots. Or RAH could lease the planes to Midwest and Midwest pilots could fly them. Time tables were set, benchmarks had to be met, and in the end Midwest did not follow though on the requirements that would allow Midwest pilots to fly the RAH 170's WITHOUT any sort of merger or acquisition taking place. So, RAH flew those planes under a CPA.

The original RAH 170 deal for Midwest was no different that any other CPA that RAH flew under at the time. RAH pilot flew RAH planes on routes dictated by Midwest management. Yes, this replaced SOME flights that were done by Midwest pilots on Midwest flights. BUT!!!!!!!!! Much of the new RAH flying was to replace the flying being done by Skywest with CRJ's. MIDWEST HAD ALREADY GIVEN UP 12 AIRCRAFTS' WORTH OF FLYING TO SKYWEST. Yes, RAH planes did replace 717's, but as previous discussed, those 717's were going away for reasons beyond the control or influence of RAH pilots and Midwest pilots. RAH was brought in to cover the loss of those planes. Those planes did NOT go away because RAH was contracted to fly. The timetable was close, but the actual chronology shows that Midwest managers balked on the 717's first, and contracted with RAH as a result.

RAH flies small jets on behalf of many companies. Yes, the flying we do was once done by the majors themselves. The midwest CPA was no different that any other CPA that RAH signed with other airlines. RAH planes replaced mainline aircraft at Delta, at Continental, at US Airways, at United, at Frontier, and American before they replaced flying at MIdwest. Now this was not always a direct mainline replacement...sometimes replaced another regional that replaced mainline. Sometimes we offered inexpensive access to cities and routes that had been abandoned years before. But in the end, flying for Midwest was no different than flying for anyone else. The effects were more obvious on a fleet of 25 aircraft compared to an airline with 400 or more mainline aircraft and a further fleet of 300 regional jets, but the effect was the same.

What happened at Midwest is not unique. It is not special. RAH replaces mainline flying. So does Pinnacle. So does Skywest. So does ExpressJet. So does Colgan. So does TSA. So does ASA. So does Mesa. So does Comair. So does PSA. So does Eagle. So does Mesaba. So does Air Wisconsin. So did ACA. We at RAH have probablt replaced 25 aircraft's worth of flying at 5 other major airlines. The only difference is that Midwest only had 25 planes. Don't forget, job replacement can go far beyond pilots and F/A's. Many regionals do ground handling, and have replaced mainline rampers at many outstations, and even to a significant degree in hub airports.

 

[Minimaniac]

Do we feel bad? Yes. No one likes to see someone lose a job. Was flying a Midwest plane any different that flying a plane in AA, CAL, UAL, DAL, or US paint? Not at all. At lease in the case of MIdwest, the airline was purchased, and the pilots WILL be able to fly their original flying once again. Name another regional that does that. When the seniority lists are finally combined, furloughs willl come back. Since there is NO combined list yet, don't come one here and criticize the outcome and new seniority of Midwest pilots. It hasn't been determined yet. Maybe RAH pilots will be all behind Midwest. Maybe there will be DOH. Probably not...no one ever seems to grant that anymore.

Will YX pilots get paid less? Yes. How low will their wages be? Don't know. When RAH and SHuttle America were integrated, certain pay protections were granted, including maintaining former captain pay until upgrade on RAH equipment (it was confusing, and since I did not experience it with my own pay, I cannot tell you how it worked). While that won't happen in this case, it is possible that Midwest pilots may carry longevity over, albiet on RAH payscale, and regardless of new seniority. But, a 20 year Midwest captain would be able to make $119/hr at RAH if longevity could be granted. It is a step down, but not as big a fall as some make it out to be. Again, that is all up to people behind closed doors. But think about it, why would Teamsters have a problem with Midwest pilots carrying longevity over for pay purposes? I am all for it. And, Midwest pilots may still end up with quicker access to the Airbus that any RAH pilot and have access to that pay sooner....especially with forecast growth in the Airbus fleet in the next couple years, as reported in the RAH quarterly conference call.

In short, stop the hate. If you fly for any regional, you replace jobs, and you work for less. And if you fly for a major airline, look to yourselves as to why the regional airlines who once flew Beech 99's and Shorts 330's now have 50, 70, 90, and 100 seat jets. Regional unions didn't go after your jets. Major unions gave away those jets. And remember, while we regional pilots would rather be at mainline that where we are now, the path of working at a regional to get to a major has been the most accepted career path for over 20 years. You can bad mouth our choice, but we did what 70% of those before us were doing for the 15 years BEFORE we got our jobs. In fact, for any pilot in thier 20's or early 30's at a regional (about 85% of us), the regional to mainline pipeline has been the norm since the first time we ever dreamd of flying an airplane in grade school. We all tried to get to mainline via the tried and tested method. Everyone before us paid their dues, and we though we would too. But in the last five years, regionals have made big changes to the way they do business, taking advantage of the struggles of the industry post 9/11. Even so, that did not change the main career path available to us. The fixed wing side of the military is a fraction of what it once was, an the peace time that most of us grew up in steered us towards the more open door of civilian training.

We get hired at regionals because that is how we were told we would get jobs at a major. Yes, some people fly some frieght or corporate ops, but that is such a small segment of the entry level jobs in 121 and 135 ops. None of us could plan on getting hired at Delta out of a flight instructing job. Don't hate us for following in the footsteps of our mentors. RAH has changed immensely since I was hired. It is not the same company by far. I could go somewhere else, but any other regional does the exact same thing. I could go corporate, but the economy kinds sucks, and that is far too risky. I could leave aviation, but again, the economy sucks. Remember, when the most recent wave of regional new hires came on, it was 2007 and places like Delta, NW, and UAL were beginning to hire. People came to places like RAH and Pinnacle and ASA, and saw that new union contracts were in the works, which meant they were more likely to get a boost in pay sooner by going there than going to a company that still had some years until a new contract could begin to be negotiated. We got a few interviews, and picked the best company that offered us a job.

Stop hating, and start thinking. I know what happened at Midwest is awful. I know RAH pilots make great punching bags, But seriously think about it, get some FACTS, and realize that not only can what happened to Midwest happen to you, but that any regional out there could have been the one doing it, and that doing so would be no different to any regional pilot than it would be going to work any other day. The loss is real. The impact on Midwest pilots is real. But ask:

WHY is your job more special than the job of a United pilot?

WHY would RAH pilots have any more reason to refuse a Midwest flight than a Delta flight?

WHY should RAH pilots be the ones to take an above-the-law stand, and not you?

WHERE was the hard line and hate when Skywest came on your property after the MD's had gone away?

WHERE was the concern and unity when Skyway pilots were sent packing?

WHAT happened to you that hasn't happened already to everyone except Southwest pilots?

WHAT regional airline would have actually not showed up to fly a Midwest flight?

and most importantly...

WHERE was your union when you needed them most?



My frustrations are not directed towards the Midwest pilots in general. I have met quite a few YX'ers, and they are almost all level headed individuals who know what really happened, and have begrudgingly accepted the reality before them. They understand what everyone's role was, and what everyone's options were.

My frustrations are directed towards the thoughtless, ignorant people who have been causing nothing but angst and trouble on these message boards. What is happening is real, and it is happening to real people. Don't make a game of it. Our troubles are not for your entertainment. I also direct my comments to the holier-than-thou pilots here who act as though they are more principled than RAH pilots, or regional pilots in general. Working for RAH contributes to the problems of our industry no more than working for any other regional. Heck, anyone who accepted employment at any major airline that relaxed scope is just as culpable in all of this.

 

[Minimaniac]

And one more thing....mommy and daddy didn't pay my way. I am saddled with the debts of my training. I took those debts with the seemingly safe bet that my investment would pay off. In the 90's, career progression via regional to mainline was working, and the end was nowhere in sight. Oh yeah, and back then, most of us did not have the benefit of an online community to get advice and warnings, if they existed. We relied on the handful of people we might have known for info, but mostly on magazine ads, articles, and our dreams. Tell me what is so bad about that?

 

[SF340Guy]

Mr. Minimaniac, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Actually, great post... The only response you will get is, RAH sucks, because the posters of this site do not bring much more than that to the table. I gave up a long time ago.

 

[Minimaniac]

Mr. Minimaniac, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Actually, great post... The only response you will get is, RAH sucks, because the posters of this site do not bring much more than that to the table. I gave up a long time ago.

You're right...time to go grab a beer and think back to when this job was fun. I've found that cruise altitude is inversely proportional to job satisfaction. Maybe Bedford will grow the Q400 operation significantly, and we can go bang around in props again.

 

[UnstableAviator]

Nice work Minimaniac.

You've pretty much made the definitive post regarding the RAH/YX fiasco for the FI and APC crowd.

 

[deadstick]

Departing on a 90 degree tangent...

Is the Midex shop just beyond the SIDA door (LL, D Con) still open? Does anybody have a phone number?

Carry on...

 

[CitationLover]

Departing on a 90 degree tangent...

Is the Midex shop just beyond the SIDA door (LL, D Con) still open? Does anybody have a phone number?

Carry on...

it was closed right around the time skyway was shutdown.

 

[deadstick]

it was closed right around the time skyway was shutdown.

I guess they knew y'all wouldn't be needing new uniforms, etc.

 

[Caveman]

Minimaniac,

Good post. I pretty much agree with all of it. You pointed out one very unique aspect of the RAH/Midwest scenario. Namely, Midwest only had 25 planes. The same kind of thing happens all the time between other majors and other regionals. The problem this time is that a relatively small amount of flying shifting from one airline to another resulted in the demise of one of the carriers. Losing 25 planes out of 400 is unfortunate. Losing 25 planes out of 25 is catastrophic.