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It's just fourth hand intel that I'm getting. A buddy called me up who has a good friend on the line there. Said word in ops is out for upwards of a thousand hours cut in flying at the new year and maybe up to 30 pilots getting wacked. Anyone on here in 'in the know'?
 
ultrarunner said:
It's just fourth hand intel that I'm getting. A buddy called me up who has a good friend on the line there. Said word in ops is out for upwards of a thousand hours cut in flying at the new year and maybe up to 30 pilots getting wacked. Anyone on here in 'in the know'?
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that's the rumor now in print from the chief pilot.
 
In two hours today I've heard 70, 15, and now 30. Horrible news regardless of the number, but I guess the bottom line is there will be furloughs.
 
I'm very sorry to hear this guys. I hope it doesn't come true.

any chance of the DOJ striking down the TPG/NWA deal?
 
Propsync said:
In two hours today I've heard 70, 15, and now 30. Horrible news regardless of the number, but I guess the bottom line is there will be furloughs.
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they're expecting 25 in attrition and retirements this year so 15 and 30 makes no sense, but then again furloughing and reducing the flying schedule makes no sense....

this could all be sabre rattling also as an opener for 2008 negotiations.

if they are reducing i imagine it is the 80's that will be reduced and then a lot of 80's guys transitioning to the 717.
 
TV9Driver said:
I'm very sorry to hear this guys. I hope it doesn't come true.

any chance of the DOJ striking down the TPG/NWA deal?
Click to expand...

i think the uncertainty of the TPG deal being completed is possibly driving this. i doubt the DOJ will strike the deal down, however if it is approved and this (furloughs and reduced flying) happens, the company will have egg all over it's face and lose a lot of credibility in lieu of what they said during the air tran takeover attempt.
 
Good guesses CL, we'll see what happens. Last time they talked furlough at Skyway, the bottom 1/3 melted off the list to the point we were short by the time the furlough would have happened. I think this is the call to whoever's looking elsewhere to get going. That should be enough to keep an actual furlough from happening. Maybe.

Negotiations? I think the Cookie Palace is knee deep in trying get this past DOJ and go from there. God knows they can't do more than one thing at a time. They kept AirTran away at the cost of not running the airline, thereby forcing a sale. Now they are not running the airline trying to get the sale final.

Amongst all of this, I guess that means no 737/320 order?

This flying pulldown will be cute. Skywest does CMH-MCI and MSN-MCI. AUS, RDU, COS? Those airplanes have to go somewhere. Will they cut Skyway or will they cut out those 'Dartboard Destinations' and replace more 717 flying, and have the 717 do more 80 flying (hopefully with more than 99 seats)?
 
Propsync said:
Good guesses CL, we'll see what happens. Last time they talked furlough at Skyway, the bottom 1/3 melted off the list to the point we were short by the time the furlough would have happened. I think this is the call to whoever's looking elsewhere to get going. That should be enough to keep an actual furlough from happening. Maybe.

Negotiations? I think the Cookie Palace is knee deep in trying get this past DOJ and go from there. God knows they can't do more than one thing at a time. They kept AirTran away at the cost of not running the airline, thereby forcing a sale. Now they are not running the airline trying to get the sale final.

Amongst all of this, I guess that means no 737/320 order?

This flying pulldown will be cute. Skywest does CMH-MCI and MSN-MCI. AUS, RDU, COS? Those airplanes have to go somewhere. Will they cut Skyway or will they cut out those 'Dartboard Destinations' and replace more 717 flying, and have the 717 do more 80 flying (hopefully with more than 99 seats)?
Click to expand...

Yes it is quite convenient that they complain regarding fuel expense yet expand using fuel inefficient airplanes. If they further expand Skywest by the 10 extra airplanes then they really are smoking some good ganja. As far as I can tell the 717 flying in January is fairly similar to December, but I do know they cut some 80 flying (LAS redeye's, etc.). You may be correct that they simply hope for a spike in attrition to cover themselves in the short term and then replace them with cheaper FO's this summer.

As far as replacing the 80's, who knows. I cannot imagine TPG simply putting up $250 million and then reducing the airline, it makes no sense. Memories aren't that short, even in MKE. People will remember this if they reduce the airline (it was save the cookie, not save skywest) and I think Tim is quite aware of his "rep" within the MKE community.

All of this also before TPG takes control, if anything you'd think they'd want it quiet before taking control. Which leads me to think that a new CBA extension offer is around the corner (just like in August with the TPG announcement). Management posting "rumors" is weird considering I am sure his words are approved before being published.
 
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The icing on this cake is the fact if you do furlough, it will be mostly Skyway guys. This is where it gets cute. When AT came knocking, ME threatened to not take another Skyway guy if we stood behind AT. So Skyway went neutral (Most were for it, but it was political). ME supported the stand alone. Now a year later, after supporting deal more or less, former Skyway pilots could get burned with a furlough and the ME MEC looks pretty bad for siding with the company. I don't want to be misread here, I'm not saying your MEC did a bad thing, it just looks that way well after the fact. I'm sure if the MEC knew this crap was going to happen way back when, they would have never gotten on board.

Not to change the subject, but I've disagreed with you quite a bit CL, you big company guy. Have the last couple of months rewired your eyes at all?
 
Propsync said:
The icing on this cake is the fact if you do furlough, it will be mostly Skyway guys. This is where it gets cute. When AT came knocking, ME threatened to not take another Skyway guy if we stood behind AT. So Skyway went neutral (Most were for it, but it was political). ME supported the stand alone. Now a year later, after supporting deal more or less, former Skyway pilots could get burned with a furlough and the ME MEC looks pretty bad for siding with the company. I don't want to be misread here, I'm not saying your MEC did a bad thing, it just looks that way well after the fact. I'm sure if the MEC knew this crap was going to happen way back when, they would have never gotten on board.

Not to change the subject, but I've disagreed with you quite a bit CL, you big company guy. Have the last couple of months rewired your eyes at all?
Click to expand...

The company will do what the company wants to do, doesn't change the fact that I enjoy the company and the atmosphere amongst the Midwest employees. Outside the furlough threat, I still enjoy how I've been treated here so far. If that makes me a company guy, I guess I'm guilty. I am sure Skyway pilots have a vastly different view of the company versus from where I sit (no different than an AA pilot versus an Eagle one).

If the TPG deal goes through and we still are struggling, they will find someone who will make changes as they did at Continental in hiring Bethune.

Our MEC played politics with the merger. We do not want to give money to lawyers in fighting a seniority merger (not only air tran but even alpa carriers as evidenced by the recent vote). They appeared loyal in hopes of getting some leverage for 2008, we won't know if this strategy worked until after the next CBA is signed.

Any furlough is bad news. The junior pilots here are NOT mostly ex-skyway pilots though (there were none in my class). There was 1 in an 80 class after us. In the class before mine I believe there was none either, so out of the bottom 25, only 1 is ex-Skyway.
 
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CitationLover said:
Any furlough is bad news. The junior pilots here are NOT mostly ex-skyway pilots though (there were none in my class). There was 1 in an 80 class after us. In the class before mine I believe there was none either, so out of the bottom 25, only 1 is ex-Skyway.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess I could have been clearer in my last post. No Skyway furloughs, I meant Skyway guys that went to ME, and possibly to get furloughed. And that info is suprising, I would have thought there were more ex-Skyway guys down near the bottom. I guess it makes sense, as they had mostly cut off the Skyway pool when I quit in April, and there were a few more classes after that.

Anyways, good luck to all you guys, what a terrible time of year for the company to be talking about such things.
 
haven't gotten any 30 day notice yet and i hope i do not. if i do, will deal with it.
 
Don't expect any help from the pilot group at Midex either, they voted down an alpa resolution to help the furloughed pilot back in 01 when we got furloughed and I am sure they will do it again.

They simply don't care about the new guys in the bottom of the seniority list, the funny part is I still can't find anyone who voted against that resolution.
 
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FlyWolf said:
Don't expect any help from the pilot group at Midex either, they voted down an alpa resolution to help the furloughed pilot back in 01 when we got furloughed and I am sure they will do it again.

They simply don't care about the new guys in the bottom of the seniority list, the funny part is I still can't find anyone who voted against that resolution.
Click to expand...

yes i've heard of the history. i should hope the additional years of unionism has helped.

the senior guys got their answer in the last vote (merger fund). the last teleconference was simply people who voted yes complaining about those who voted no.
 
CitationLover said:
yes i've heard of the history. i should hope the additional years of unionism has helped.

the senior guys got their answer in the last vote (merger fund). the last teleconference was simply people who voted yes complaining about those who voted no.
Click to expand...
If this is true and your company begins to furlough at the beginning of the year, that will be sad news and I wish those that are furloughed the best. I have been furloughed, it definitely changes your life and I don't wish that on anyone. Now this brings me to another thought, folks this industry is so volatile. It is unfortunate that your pilot group may be facing furloughs because EGO's stood in the way of a possible good opportunity. When will we as a pilot group nationwide learn. This industry is a business and NO ONE cares about or is thinking about pilots when they make their business decisions. Some executives will promise falsely the world to save their existance!

The value I saw in a merger between Midwest and AirTran was the opportunity to bring two cultures together and build a true national low cost carrier. Unlike Jetblue or Southwest, which have their niche, AirTran and Midwest would have brought together years of experience from Midwest and their first class service and AirTran and their successful low cost model and made something potentially special and different from the other two low cost carriers. There would have been some growing pains and some learning on both sides, but the potential would have been very rewarding 3 to 5 years down the road. FACT, Airtran has 60 737-700s on order and many of those airplanes were destined for MKE and MCI given the saturation in ATL. FACT, Midwest has NO aircaft on order. Only some outsourcing contracts with an operator that is using a aircraft that is very inefficient given the current energy prices. Your union chose to endorse a business plan that was flawed and now may lead to furloughs! Sadly, I will never understand that. Would there have been hickups with a merger between AirTran and Midwest...yes! But the career opportunities and the potential for MKE and MCI economically made this a merger worth endorsing. Oil as high as it is may have slowed down a few things. But it's sad that pilot careers may be halted because of EGOS and selfishness that got in the way both in your executive suites and your MEC. Best of luck to all of us in this crazy industry.
 
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It sucks getting furloughed. Midwest did it to me twice (2001, 2003). Then once more by another company. Each time I've ended up somewhere better. Have faith that something better will come along. The good news is that many quality companies are hiring. My advice, get another job and don't look back.
 
Eagle757shark said:
If this is true and your company begins to furlough at the beginning of the year, that will be sad news and I wish those that are furloughed the best. I have been furloughed, it definitely changes your life and I don't wish that on anyone. Now this brings me to another thought, folks this industry is so volatile. It is unfortunate that your pilot group may be facing furloughs because EGO's stood in the way of a possible good opportunity. When will we as a pilot group nationwide learn. This industry is a business and NO ONE cares about or is thinking about pilots when they make their business decisions. Some executives will promise falsely the world to save their existance!

The value I saw in a merger between Midwest and AirTran was the opportunity to bring two cultures together and build a true national low cost carrier. Unlike Jetblue or Southwest, which have their niche, AirTran and Midwest would have brought together years of experience from Midwest and their first class service and AirTran and their successful low cost model and made something potentially special and different from the other two low cost carriers. There would have been some growing pains and some learning on both sides, but the potential would have been very rewarding 3 to 5 years down the road. FACT, Airtran has 60 737-700s on order and many of those airplanes were destined for MKE and MCI given the saturation in ATL. FACT, Midwest has NO aircaft on order. Only some outsourcing contracts with an operator that is using a aircraft that is very inefficient given the current energy prices. Your union chose to endorse a business plan that was flawed and now may lead to furloughs! Sadly, I will never understand that. Would there have been hickups with a merger between AirTran and Midwest...yes! But the career opportunities and the potential for MKE and MCI economically made this a merger worth endorsing. Oil as high as it is may have slowed down a few things. But it's sad that pilot careers may be halted because of EGOS and selfishness that got in the way both in your executive suites and your MEC. Best of luck to all of us in this crazy industry.
Click to expand...

again pilots and our MEC had NO say on the merger process, the shareholders had the say as did the BoD. our MEC chose a strategy that is still under question and we won't know if it is successful until after our next CBA is finished.

our pilots could have screamed one way or the other and it would not have mattered. you make it sound like we were controlling this process, not true. a lot of us like the airline as is and wish to see it expand based upon that, however that ain't happening no matter how loud we scream. a lot of us wanted the air tran deal to go through (and almost did) for the proposed growth that has been lacking here, but no matter how loud they screamed it didn't matter. what mattered was TPG, called in by Tim (not the pilots or our MEC), outbid air tran.

the community was told a stand alone plan was best for the shareholders and stakeholders very publicly. if they start furloughing people then they will look like fools and will lose the very support they count on for business (locals).

the only say our MEC has had on this process was "No" to the extension "offer" the company proposed right after the first TPG offer.
 
CitationLover said:
again pilots and our MEC had NO say on the merger process, the shareholders had the say as did the BoD. our MEC chose a strategy that is still under question and we won't know if it is successful until after our next CBA is finished.

our pilots could have screamed one way or the other and it would not have mattered. you make it sound like we were controlling this process, not true. a lot of us like the airline as is and wish to see it expand based upon that, however that ain't happening no matter how loud we scream. a lot of us wanted the air tran deal to go through (and almost did) for the proposed growth that has been lacking here, but no matter how loud they screamed it didn't matter. what mattered was TPG, called in by Tim (not the pilots or our MEC), outbid air tran.

the community was told a stand alone plan was best for the shareholders and stakeholders very publicly. if they start furloughing people then they will look like fools and will lose the very support they count on for business (locals).

the only say our MEC has had on this process was "No" to the extension "offer" the company proposed right after the first TPG offer.
Click to expand...
I know your MEC had nothing to do with the bid and how it all turned out. However, when the merger was initially announced, your MEC took a neutral stand and then changed their minds. Again as I have said before, no one cares what the pilots think or say. But your MEC was willing to support a flawed business plan publicly and now that business plan may cost some of your members their jobs. Whatever happens best of luck to you. I don't wish a furlough on anyone. I've been down that painful road and it was during the holidays, it definitely hurts.

The good news, several good companies are hiring right now and that will hopefully lead to opportunities for your furloughees, if the company goes down that road. AirTran is looking for pilots to fill their upcoming classes. As of this date, AirTran still plans on taking 10 737s and wants to hire a couple hundred pilots in 2008.
 
Jetjockey said:
It sucks getting furloughed. Midwest did it to me twice (2001, 2003). Then once more by another company. Each time I've ended up somewhere better. Have faith that something better will come along. The good news is that many quality companies are hiring. My advice, get another job and don't look back.
Click to expand...

Spoken like a true veteran! :D I, like Jetjockey, rode the same furlough bus through 2 airlines. However, what really gets me is that people here still think that Timmy is the savior of Midwest. Let me back up for a sec. and say that I feel for those that will get their walking papers - been there, done that. It sucks! However, Timmy will just keep driving this airline into the ground. Also, TPG is not the savior. They are in this to make money, and if shrinking the airline by pruning off the dead wood is the way to go, they will. Follow Jetjockey's advice: get another job and don't look back! Use this news to your advantage: make it your motivation to move on.
 
Eagle757shark said:
Again as I have said before, no one cares what the pilots think or say. But your MEC was willing to support a flawed business plan publicly and now that business plan may cost some of your members their jobs.
Click to expand...

Not entirely true. There was a no confidence on either Tim or the board a few years ago when the first furlough went down, and like was said earlier, the senior membership did nothing to try to save those at the bottom. That's a mixed message. We don't support our leadership, but we don't support our own, either.

Fast forward, now they supported stand-alone, because the company probably threatened something. Financials were such you knew they wouldn't be able to perform to a level to avert some sort of sale/merger. The union can't say 'See, we told you so' and must fall in line with what the company wants.

What's my point? Instead of drawing their own line, they let the company do it. What can they do now? Nothing. Supporting the company then will have a negative effect on the next contract. All they have to say is 'Hey this is what you guys wanted, and this is what will need to take from you.'
 
CitationLover said:
well that's whose important FlyWolf, SHAME ON YOU! :beer:
Click to expand...
That would be "who is" important, not whose. I'm beginning to think you are from the Southland. :)

For the rest, where were the voices of moderation when all the "staple" talk was being bandied about.
Words do have consequences. I think it could have been a dynamite merger but as some one said, egos got in the way. And I have been through 3 mergers.
 
Donsa320 said:
That would be "who is" important, not whose. I'm beginning to think you are from the Southland. :)

For the rest, where were the voices of moderation when all the "staple" talk was being bandied about.
Words do have consequences. I think it could have been a dynamite merger but as some one said, egos got in the way. And I have been through 3 mergers.
Click to expand...

that was very hickish from me, sorry.

the merger didn't happen, thinking about what might have been is a waste of time.
 

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