Middle East carriers order $150B in 777X's emirates cancels A350 order

[Wesb737fo]

Flip Phone....haha.. That is funny! I'll have you know that I have an I phone. Three....or two...I don't remember. Anyway, no need to be uncivil. Since you are a bus guy, maybe you can shed some light on something. I read an article regarding the A330 crash off South America. From what I recall, there were two First Officers with the Captain returning to the jumpseat during the descent. At some point below 10,000 feet (don't remember the exact altitude...maybe 3 or 4 thousand) the more junior FO made a statement that he had been holding the stick back the entire time. He was told to let go and the other First Officer lowered the nose. The ground proximity alert sounded and the more junior FO again pulled back. I'm assuming the dual input warning/light was missed in all the confusion. Not sure if they could have recovered from the stall at that point anyway. On the 73 it is apparent when the the other pilot grabs the yoke. Not judging, just saying.
Keep it civil. And while I don't have a flip phone, I do have a pocket abacus.
Cheers

 

[timmay]

Flip Phone....haha.. That is funny! I'll have you know that I have an I phone. Three....or two...I don't remember. Anyway, no need to be uncivil. Since you are a bus guy, maybe you can shed some light on something. I read an article regarding the A330 crash off South America. From what I recall, there were two First Officers with the Captain returning to the jumpseat during the descent. At some point below 10,000 feet (don't remember the exact altitude...maybe 3 or 4 thousand) the more junior FO made a statement that he had been holding the stick back the entire time. He was told to let go and the other First Officer lowered the nose. The ground proximity alert sounded and the more junior FO again pulled back. I'm assuming the dual input warning/light was missed in all the confusion. Not sure if they could have recovered from the stall at that point anyway. On the 73 it is apparent when the the other pilot grabs the yoke. Not judging, just saying.

Keep it civil. And while I don't have a flip phone, I do have a pocket abacus.

Cheers

Holding the red button on the sidestick will give you priority over the other sidestick effectively locking out the other stick. If both pilots hold their stick in opposite directions without pushing the red button the inputs are summed, equalling zero load factor change. In "normal law" not during landing, pitch inputs are created using load factor. All that said if both pilots hold the stick in complete opposite directions nothing changes.

 

[Dornier 335]

Flip Phone....haha.. That is funny! I'll have you know that I have an I phone. Three....or two...I don't remember. Anyway, no need to be uncivil. Since you are a bus guy, maybe you can shed some light on something. I read an article regarding the A330 crash off South America. From what I recall, there were two First Officers with the Captain returning to the jumpseat during the descent. At some point below 10,000 feet (don't remember the exact altitude...maybe 3 or 4 thousand) the more junior FO made a statement that he had been holding the stick back the entire time. He was told to let go and the other First Officer lowered the nose. The ground proximity alert sounded and the more junior FO again pulled back. I'm assuming the dual input warning/light was missed in all the confusion. Not sure if they could have recovered from the stall at that point anyway. On the 73 it is apparent when the the other pilot grabs the yoke. Not judging, just saying.
Keep it civil. And while I don't have a flip phone, I do have a pocket abacus.
Cheers

The Air France 447 accident is very complex. I recommend the book by Bill Palmer "Understanding Air France 447". He also mentions the dual input issue and refers to a couple of accidents with conventional yokes: Aeroperu, Birgaair and one or two others (all in Boeings, I think). Another one out of the top of my head was in a BEA Trident out of Heathrow or Gatwick in the 70s. More puzzling about the one F/O who kept pulling back is that he had a glider rating.

Flawed design? Hardly! More an erosion of pilot flying skills. Just look at the private pilot pts and you will be shocked.

 

[ATRCA]

I'm not a big fan either. Not because I'm a dinosaur, I've been on the 737 too long, I'm institutional Boeing now. The Airbus philosophy of building a plane flown by Auto Pilot assisted by human pilots is not my thing and needs to be tweaked a bit. I like the technology, but, the fact that one guy can push the stick over while the other guy can pull back with no indication is one example of some tweaking needed. On the other side, I'm sure I will be completely overwhelmed by the technology changes on 737 max.

That's too bad. The 73 is definitely not cool. Yuk! Never flown the Bus but I'd be happy to give it a try. Can't be that hard and there's no way it's less comfortable than the 73.

 

[Golden Falcon]

I'm not a big fan either. Not because I'm a dinosaur, I've been on the 737 too long, I'm institutional Boeing now. The Airbus philosophy of building a plane flown by Auto Pilot assisted by human pilots is not my thing and needs to be tweaked a bit. I like the technology, but, the fact that one guy can push the stick over while the other guy can pull back with no indication is one example of some tweaking needed. On the other side, I'm sure I will be completely overwhelmed by the technology changes on 737 max.

777 similar...all new gen airplanes designed to be automatically flown, and managed by the pilot...

 

[Golden Falcon]

That's too bad. The 73 is definitely not cool. Yuk! Never flown the Bus but I'd be happy to give it a try. Can't be that hard and there's no way it's less comfortable than the 73.

What are you talking about?...both airplanes serve a purpose..done the Boeing and FBW Airbus thing..different philosophies Airbus lighter workload during normal ops...disaster when things start to break...to each his own..both fed my belly..

 

[Wesb737fo]

What are you talking about?...both airplanes serve a purpose..done the Boeing and FBW Airbus thing..different philosophies Airbus lighter workload during normal ops...disaster when things start to break...to each his own..both fed my belly..

Good point on the design philosophy, I guess that was what I was trying to say. I suppose a combination of training and design enhancements will hopefully eliminate future accidents like the ones we are discussing.

 

[Wesb737fo]

That's too bad. The 73 is definitely not cool. Yuk! Never flown the Bus but I'd be happy to give it a try. Can't be that hard and there's no way it's less comfortable than the 73.

Not cool ? Who are you? The Fonz. Kidding .... I suppose I'm showing my age by referencing a tv show that aired when the 737-200 was considered a new airplane. You on the 73 now?

 

[krewmeel]

I'm not a big fan either. Not because I'm a dinosaur, I've been on the 737 too long, I'm institutional Boeing now. The Airbus philosophy of building a plane flown by Auto Pilot assisted by human pilots is not my thing and needs to be tweaked a bit. I like the technology, but, the fact that one guy can push the stick over while the other guy can pull back with no indication is one example of some tweaking needed. On the other side, I'm sure I will be completely overwhelmed by the technology changes on 737 max.

Yes, but when you are flying a transcon, it is nice when the autopilot does not actually move a huge yoke repeatedly, almost slamming you in the ball$, for 5 hours. Crew meals are more enjoyable when this thing is not in your way and you have a table. Guess it doesn't matter to SWA....they don't have crew meals anyway (sorry WN guys, couldn't resist).

PS, there ARE indications of a cross input, a red light with an arrow and a charming audible warning in a british accent of: "Priority left or Priority right" will sound very loudly through the speakers.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Yes, but when you are flying a transcon, it is nice when the autopilot does not actually move a huge yoke repeatedly, almost slamming you in the ball$.

That's the only way I can wake up the Catain!