Mid Air Collision here in FL

[ShawnC]

Well there appears to have been a mid-air collision here in Florida. One of the plane cashed into a swamp, both on board dead.

The other aircraft made an emergency landing on a highway, both survived, but the aircraft (appears to be a C152) looks destroyed.

Come on people mid-airs shouldn't happen in VFR. GET YOUR EYES OUT OF THE COCKPIT!!! All it takes is one of those two with a good scan the accident probally could have been averted and two people could have come home tonight.

On another note, is it just me or do the news agencies have a script for planes crashes, at the end of the report the local news said "The cause has not been determined..." I mean I think I can guess what made the planes crash, maybe they had a little collision.

 

[starvingcfi]

anyone know where it happened? looked around online for some info. couldn't find anything. aircraft bases?

 

[maverick_fp00]

I used to work at a news station up until about 3 months ago so I still have the hookup with the latest news and stuff like that. I called and old friend who was still at work and she told me that her sources were saying it was in Broward County, Fl and no information about aircraft or airplane bases were being given out as of yet. They are still trying to find out who the relatives are, etc...

 

[maverick_fp00]

http://www.click10.com/sh/news/stories/nat-news-174216220021027-091013.html

Check that out... came from an ABC sister station...


woops... that's another plane crash I believe...

 

[Bataan]

Here's a link to it, I hope it works. I fly out there, and it IS a busy place. Very sad.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/lo...ct28,0,6425143.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

 

[avbug]

Shawn,

If you stop and think about it, the most likely place for a midair is a VFR flight, and it's most often in visual conditions. Second most common is an airplane operating under VFR and an airplane operating under IFR...usually in visual conditions.

Aircraft operating under IFR very seldom collide. The system as a rule is too regimented, and more rigid separation standards and practices exist.

So long as we have folks who reach for their microphones and ask "any inbound traffic please advise", instead of looking out the window, we'll continue to have them.

Sometimes such events just happen. Put enough airplanes in the sky, and it happens. Several days ago, it was two F-16's.

If you think about it, the first automobile collision occured when there were exactly two automobiles on the face of the earth...and they collided into each other. Mix a lot of airplanes into the same airspace, all hurdling along at high speeds, all with massive blind spots, and many with low experience and poor training these days...the real shocker is that we don't see a lot more mid-airs.

Ask most experienced professionals what their biggest concern or fear is in flight, and you'll usually get the same response; a mid-air collision, most likely with a private pilot weekend-flyer type.

 

[dogg]

Anyone that thinks for a minute that looking outside is going to prevent a midair is a rookie or spending to much time with the crack pipe. See and avoid sounds good but the truth is that there is too much traffic and it is way to easy if you are on a collision course with another aircraft to miss them. The traffic you can see is not going to hit you. It has movement relative to your position and that is why you can see it. See and avoid helps but as anyone who has spent time with TCAS will tell you, the majority of aircraft that you see on TCAS including the ones that cause RA's you never see. So I caution all of you who would lay the blame on "not looking outside" that your point of view is simplistic at best.........

 

[ArmyPilot]

I agree

Dogg,

I couldn't agree more. Almost all TCAS alerts that I get are from aircraft I never saw. Looking outside and keeping up a good scan is great but in a high workload cockpit (down low, and slow) it is not always that easy.

 

[NJA Capt]

Anyone that thinks for a minute that looking outside is going to prevent a midair is a rookie or spending to much time with the crack pipe. See and avoid sounds good but the truth is that there is too much traffic and it is way to easy if you are on a collision course with another aircraft to miss them. The traffic you can see is not going to hit you. It has movement relative to your position and that is why you can see it. See and avoid helps but as anyone who has spent time with TCAS will tell you, the majority of aircraft that you see on TCAS including the ones that cause RA's you never see. So I caution all of you who would lay the blame on "not looking outside" that your point of view is simplistic at best.........

I cannot believe you made that statement. You can hit traffic you can see. Furthermore, MOST of the traffic on TCAS is never a factor. It's the minority few that you worry about.

Remember the two Riddle pilots a few years ago that ran into each other in the pattern? One just over ran the other and cut the tail off. See and avoid is the best tool you have notwithstanding TCAS. Which I do have considerable time with.
I have seen TCAS targets evolve into 172s and Cherokees that I "saw and avoided." When I passed them (plural encounters) each pilot(s) had their head in their lap and not looking outside. Think about it. They had a jet aircraft doing 200-250kts within 500-1000' of their ship, AND NEVER KNEW I WAS THERE!

I was/am a CFI/IA/MEI, I know what goes on in a training environment. But, someone has to be looking outside the aircraft. If you are solo, minimize your time looking down. Don't plan a whole cross-country flight in your lap and only look outside in time to land.

****Note to CFIs in Eastern Florida****
Please be aware of where you are doing airwork/approaches. Look at a high altitude chart and see where the airways intersect the coast. Yes, they are for above 18,000. However, these are the routes the jets are filed and they may be BELOW FL180 on these routes. We are also given Victor airways above FL180, go figure. I once had to deviate for an ATP (which we could read on the tail) Seminole off the coast doing airwork "on the airway." I asked for vectors not to fly right under him because we SAW him doing turns. We turned and darn if he didn't turn toward us again. Just because you are offshore doesn't make you safe. We are looking for you, but please look for US.

**ALL CFIs**
Don't do VFR airwork in and IFR approach corridor. Nothing like getting a TCAS warning because someone is doing steep turns near the final approach fix. Situational awareness. Take a look at IFR charts/approach plates and VFR charts for your local area and see where conflicts may arise.

VFR midairs do usually happen in VFR near an airport. The best tool you have is your eyes. Keep them outside as much as possible.

Regards,
NJA Capt

 

[temcgrew]

"So long as we have folks who reach for their microphones and ask "any inbound traffic please advise", instead of looking out the window, we'll continue to have them."

I do that all of the time becouse when we are 5 minutes away from a non controlled airport, you usually don't see the airport much less the traffic that is buzzing around the airport.
in that environment I would say that it would be wise to talk on the radio if you can't see and avoid, maybe you can hear and avoid!!

 

[TurboS7]

I cannot believe what I am reading. I always thought that this new generation of pilots where basically pretty stupid, now this thread just confirmed it. I hope that every professional pilot gets on this thread and chews some a%%$$##. See and avioid is what it is all about. If you know how to look for traffic you will see it.I would consider you a very unsafe pilot if you truly have that attitude, if you do the FAA would pull your certificates in about 2 seconds. I fly with TCAS all the time, it is a great tool but useless if someone forgets to turn their transponder on. Countless times I have seen traffic before the TCAS said anything about it. The FLL incident is the exception, it happend about 2 miles from my house. FXE is a very very busy airport and has its share of many, many problems. Cheers. Hire only old professional pilots.......and the age limit better go past 60. Shoot, ifYeager can fly an F-15 at 79 I should be able to fly a fully automated piece of junk past 60.

The majority of pilots on this thread have the picture but the attitude expressed of a couple is absurd. It only take one of them to run into me, since I fly all over the world I consider them a threat.

 

[flywithastick]

I bet it would scare most of us to know how many near misses we've had and not even been aware of it. I believe I do a pretty good job of looking around, but have had many instances where the other planes appear from behind blind spots, overtake me or I close on them quicker than intended. just have to look closely.

I was taking a check ride a once and there was a King Air departing the area just ahead of us. Assuming he was faster than the Seneca we were in, I just put him out of my mind. After a minute or two, the examiner asked if I had the King Air. I said yes thinking he had outrun us at our 12 (mistake not being honest). In another minute or so I spotted him, still at 12 and we were closing at 1500' or so in trail, with their plane blended into the horizon. kept my "oh, sh#t" under my breath and gently eased right. gotta keep your brain going and eyes open. still don't know why they were flying so slow. probably setting up for a sim inst apch.

another one that kept me from an unintended close form flight once is checking out your shadow on the ground. If you can see it, particularly low and near airports, make sure you're the only shadow down there. Not good all the time, but when mid-day and sunny (when a lot of VFR folks are out) it can help.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

I'll say that I practice the "see and be seen" concept every time I go up, day or night. What I mean is the nav lights are on and, if equipped, the strobes are as well. Also, I always use the landing light when I get close to the airport and especially in the pattern. I've had instructors tell me that the cost of bulbs was not worth it and when I reply "the cost of bulbs is potentially not worth your life?" they tend to get really quiet.

 

[avbug]

Too many pilots today seem to think that the radio fends off traffic, or that TCAS will keep them safe.

You can ask any in bound traffic to please advise...but what about those with lost com, or those with no radio, or those that dont' hear you (ala, instructor and student in the pattern)? Do you plan for that? If so, then making the call in the first place is a moot action; see and avoid. Anybody inbound or in the pattern? Gee, just us guys with no radios.

That TCAS will keep you safe from airplanes with the transponder off, or in operative, or from aircraft without electrical systems.

The first and foremost rule of traffic avoidance, weather operating IFR or VFR, is a set of Mark I Eyeballs, current edition.

The closest near-collison I've had to date was only a few years ago while coming off the Kirk Complex fire in California. Near Big Sur, I was climbing out inside the temporary flight restriction in T-130, a C-130A. I had just contacted ATC and had been given a squawk code. I looked down to check the code, and looking up, passed a Brasillia close enough to note that the captain was wearing Rayban Outdoorsman II sunglasses. He was talking to ATC, on the job, inside a TFR with heavy smoke and low visibility.

TCAS and radar didn't make a bit of difference. I was climbing off a drop in smoke, and didn't expect him to be there, but acquired him visually. I don't think he ever saw me...after all, he was flying IFR...why look outside the airplane?

Why? Because what you don't see kills you. Look outside, and be alive.

 

[ShawnC]

TCAS... never heard of such this... let me look in the Cub....

Nothing like it there... how about in the C172...

All I got is this radio....

TCAS is great in a terminal enviroment in aircraft that must be flown heads down a majority of the times, but a C172 is flown visually a majority of the time.

VFR is just that visual, see and aviod, I gaurantee you even though they won't admit it, one or both of these guys had their heads in the panel. This is Florida, when I have flown with a TCAS I was amazed at the sheer number of targets. I don't care if you are IFR, unless you are single pilot you need to have your head outside the cockpit, there is just too much traffic here in Florida.

I personally am sick of hearing about dead pilots, espically when it could have been avioded if they had followed the rules. No I am not a bleeding heart, but if people see flying a small plane as a dangerous act, it could mean more restrictions for the activity I love.

 

[a-v-8er]

The area between St. Augustine and West Palm Beach along the east coast of Florida is the most congested training area in the world according to the Orlando FSDO . Having said that, I totally agree that there's just too much traffic here!

I've heard freight flyers inbound to Orlando via V267 saying that this route scares them more than anything else when flying.

Being an instructor in the area, I must admit that, at least once a week I brush death or get so close that I can easily count number of occupants onboard another plane or read tail numbers. It's not that we who work here aren't looking outside the cockpit. I stress that from day one with my students and anytime I'm up there I'll try to spend the minimal time looking inside my self. I continuously scan in sectors all around the plane, but given the job as an instructor there'll be times when your head is buried inside, when it shouldn't be. We use the radios too, but as previously mentioned, you CANNOT rely on radio calls. People might be talking, but not listening. Some airplanes ignore the radio calls and others aren't equipped. It's a tool to be used to enhance safety if possible, not exclude looking outside!

No matter how much you look outside (at least in this area), you simply cannot catch every target! The sky is a big place, but occasionally it's awfully small and the ONLY thing you should trust is you eyes and if that's not enough, hope that the next pilot has his head outside of the cockpit!

Also, being very familiar with the area and its airways, approach corridors and the areas popular landmarks helps! I'll avoid these to the extent possible. Don't forget to look outside when you're under radar service too. A lot of people tend to relax when ATC has issued a squawk code and you're receiving flight following or sequencing for landing. I've had a handful of unpleasant encounters when I was on approach frequency and for whatever reason ATC did not report traffic that otherwise should have been a traffic alert. Remember, it's a time permitting service from ATC and in this area they are usually way too busy to catch everything!

Now, when you're flying IFR and practicing approaches, DON'T think for a second that you shouldn't have to pay as much attention outside! When you're in the clouds, that's when you can focus on the instruments. If you're shooting approaches (VFR or IFR) and as long as you're in VMC conditions, you'd better keep your head outside!

If there's traffic in the pattern at the airport to which you're shooting an approach, make sure you'll not conflict with that traffic by either aborting the approach early, staying at a higher altitude (at least 500' above TPA) or coordinating a straight in approach to landing for example. Remember, that there are pilots out there who won't understand phrases like "inbound on the GPS 8 approach", so sometimes you might want to clarify more when talking on CTAF. For example, "inbound on GPS 8, three miles west, straight in runway 8".

Again, keep your head outside the cockpit!!! It's not a guarantee that it will save your life, but you might save someone else's including your own! Keep it safe!

 

[mckpickle]

Come on people mid-airs shouldn't happen in VFR. GET YOUR EYES OUT OF THE COCKPIT!!! All it takes is one of those two with a good scan the accident probally could have been averted and two people could have come home tonight.

Listen pal, I have TCAS on the plane and I've had several "near misses" This stuff does and will happen. And you seem to have a false sence of security if you think by looking outside it wont happen to you.

 

[avbug]

You brush death? That sounds very dramatic. What's that like, anyway? What do you brush it with? Would that be the toothbrush of death, or the hairbrush of death? Does death reciprocate?

I'd sue for necrological harassment.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Avbug your are a very silly boy!

In other news I was doing turns around a point not long ago and after a few times around noticed a shadow that wasn't mine but was close to co altitude and they also appeared to be doing turns around a point. I steepened the turn up quite a bit and make two 360's with two of us looking for this a/c and neither of us ever saw them and so we left that area. We were both looking for traffic during the manuver and he had to be pretty close and that it was a clear day and we never saw him says to me that it can happen even if your looking. Yes we did clearing turns before.

RT

 

[ShawnC]

Re: Re: Mid Air Collision here in FL

Listen pal, I have TCAS on the plane and I've had several "near misses" This stuff does and will happen. And you seem to have a false sence of security if you think by looking outside it wont happen to you.

TCAS is a rare thing in the training enviroment, you only have one way to look for traffic your eyes. Also with a TCAS, isn't the RA set to 800 ft, sheesh I would get them all the time here in Florida then, there is traffic everywhere.