Mid Air Collision here in FL

[a-v-8er]

The area between St. Augustine and West Palm Beach along the east coast of Florida is the most congested training area in the world according to the Orlando FSDO . Having said that, I totally agree that there's just too much traffic here!

I've heard freight flyers inbound to Orlando via V267 saying that this route scares them more than anything else when flying.

Being an instructor in the area, I must admit that, at least once a week I brush death or get so close that I can easily count number of occupants onboard another plane or read tail numbers. It's not that we who work here aren't looking outside the cockpit. I stress that from day one with my students and anytime I'm up there I'll try to spend the minimal time looking inside my self. I continuously scan in sectors all around the plane, but given the job as an instructor there'll be times when your head is buried inside, when it shouldn't be. We use the radios too, but as previously mentioned, you CANNOT rely on radio calls. People might be talking, but not listening. Some airplanes ignore the radio calls and others aren't equipped. It's a tool to be used to enhance safety if possible, not exclude looking outside!

No matter how much you look outside (at least in this area), you simply cannot catch every target! The sky is a big place, but occasionally it's awfully small and the ONLY thing you should trust is you eyes and if that's not enough, hope that the next pilot has his head outside of the cockpit!

Also, being very familiar with the area and its airways, approach corridors and the areas popular landmarks helps! I'll avoid these to the extent possible. Don't forget to look outside when you're under radar service too. A lot of people tend to relax when ATC has issued a squawk code and you're receiving flight following or sequencing for landing. I've had a handful of unpleasant encounters when I was on approach frequency and for whatever reason ATC did not report traffic that otherwise should have been a traffic alert. Remember, it's a time permitting service from ATC and in this area they are usually way too busy to catch everything!

Now, when you're flying IFR and practicing approaches, DON'T think for a second that you shouldn't have to pay as much attention outside! When you're in the clouds, that's when you can focus on the instruments. If you're shooting approaches (VFR or IFR) and as long as you're in VMC conditions, you'd better keep your head outside!

If there's traffic in the pattern at the airport to which you're shooting an approach, make sure you'll not conflict with that traffic by either aborting the approach early, staying at a higher altitude (at least 500' above TPA) or coordinating a straight in approach to landing for example. Remember, that there are pilots out there who won't understand phrases like "inbound on the GPS 8 approach", so sometimes you might want to clarify more when talking on CTAF. For example, "inbound on GPS 8, three miles west, straight in runway 8".

Again, keep your head outside the cockpit!!! It's not a guarantee that it will save your life, but you might save someone else's including your own! Keep it safe!

 

[mckpickle]

Come on people mid-airs shouldn't happen in VFR. GET YOUR EYES OUT OF THE COCKPIT!!! All it takes is one of those two with a good scan the accident probally could have been averted and two people could have come home tonight.

Listen pal, I have TCAS on the plane and I've had several "near misses" This stuff does and will happen. And you seem to have a false sence of security if you think by looking outside it wont happen to you.

 

[avbug]

You brush death? That sounds very dramatic. What's that like, anyway? What do you brush it with? Would that be the toothbrush of death, or the hairbrush of death? Does death reciprocate?

I'd sue for necrological harassment.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Avbug your are a very silly boy!

In other news I was doing turns around a point not long ago and after a few times around noticed a shadow that wasn't mine but was close to co altitude and they also appeared to be doing turns around a point. I steepened the turn up quite a bit and make two 360's with two of us looking for this a/c and neither of us ever saw them and so we left that area. We were both looking for traffic during the manuver and he had to be pretty close and that it was a clear day and we never saw him says to me that it can happen even if your looking. Yes we did clearing turns before.

RT

 

[ShawnC]

Re: Re: Mid Air Collision here in FL

Listen pal, I have TCAS on the plane and I've had several "near misses" This stuff does and will happen. And you seem to have a false sence of security if you think by looking outside it wont happen to you.

TCAS is a rare thing in the training enviroment, you only have one way to look for traffic your eyes. Also with a TCAS, isn't the RA set to 800 ft, sheesh I would get them all the time here in Florida then, there is traffic everywhere.

 

[rumpletumbler]

The one I had exposure to was in a Grand Rennaisance Commander and it was fairly amusing near a busy airport and this girl was whispering "traffic" every 2 seconds. It becomes unusable at that point. One thing that happened that was spooky with it was over the appalachians at about 20 grand or so it whispered "traffic" and it was at our six and a quarter mile. Lots of military folks play around up there and we wondered. After it whispered again we asked atc and they said nobody was there. If it was inaccurate it was the only time we noticed it.

RT

 

[DIRT]

I must agree with Avbug on this one, I think TCAS in my 150 would be a bit of an overkill. Simply looking outside is not going to prevent every possible mid-air but while flying VFR especially in the traffic pattern being vigilant and actually staying focused outside is the best way to prevent running into another airplane.

 

[NJA Capt]

Re: Re: Re: Mid Air Collision here in FL

Also with a TCAS, isn't the RA set to 800 ft, sheesh I would get them all the time here in Florida then, there is traffic everywhere.

TCAS is a function of time to impact, not distance. I can pass someone in level flight at 350 kts, 500' above and never hear a peep on TCAS as long as BOTH aircraft are level. Our TCAS continuously scans 2700' above and below the aircraft. During climbs and descents it can be extended to 7200' respectively.

TCAS takes into account rate of climb/descent. If you do a zoom climb in your PA-28 climbing to 1000' MSL, it is possible to give a jet in the traffic pattern a TCAS a warning. The TCAS doesn't know you will be leveling out at 1000', it assumes the climb will continue at a steady state. If you did so it would see the conflict ahead of time. This is a major pain in the NE Corridor. All TEB veterans know what I mean.

As has been pointed out. TCAS is worthless if the unknown aircraft doesn't have a xponder, or mode C. If you have mode C, don't turn it off, it may save both of us.

 

[cvsfly]

Use all the tools available to you. TCAS, my favorite equipment. I helps the eyes look in the correct spots. You needs the eyes as well. Fly IFR whenever possible. Use ATC whenever possible. Use lights, etc. Use common sense and consideration along airways over navaids, arrival corridors, airports, coastlines,etc. East FL is very dangerous with all the flight training down there. They need to be more responsible in their procedures on using the limited amount of airspace down there. Don't forget the language barrier. KFPR always got my vote as being dangerous. Poor coordination (or none) between Center radar and the non-radar tower - will not use Customs there again. Traffic saturation. In Aug departed KMTH on file IFR. Ground clearance freq. not avail., perfect VFR (a few small TRW lines). Departed, MIA center said standby, repeated the same, flew from one sector to another. Level at 17,500 40 min later finally got an IFR clearance. Fly safe.

 

[mckpickle]

Re: Re: Re: Mid Air Collision here in FL

TCAS is a rare thing in the training enviroment, you only have one way to look for traffic your eyes. Also with a TCAS, isn't the RA set to 800 ft, sheesh I would get them all the time here in Florida then, there is traffic everywhere.

Yes TCAS is rare in training, but my point was even with TCAS set to a very small range, when you get a warning 1/2 the time you still cant see the guy that you KNOW is right there! Your looking at the blip 1/2 mile away at the same alt and you cant see him. Get very frustrating.

As far as the 800 ft thing. There are more variables than the tax code. A TA will activate if it sences a possible collision no matter what altitude. Say you have a 737 climbing like a bat out of hell 3000 ft below. The TCAS sences this because of the climb rate. Pure F&%ing Magic.

 

[ShawnC]

Pure F-ing magic eh, well the chances that I will ever use one in a C172, well lets just put it this way I am estactic when I first used a GPS in the SP, I mean I could actually put my flight plan in it and not have to search around for the codes when I hit each checkpoint.

 

[dogg]

I think your missing the point Shawn. No one is implying that you will ever use a tcas in a c-152. The point was simply that even with an instrument that will point you in the right direction to look , you will still often not see the target. And as for the Riddleites hitting each other, there was so little relative movement between them that the overtakers never saw what they were about to hit. As long as the blame is going to always be placed on the pilots then no progress wil be made to remedy what is surely only going to get worse. And there will always be some with much better eye sight than others and quicker reactions.
And there are at least a couple on this board with bionic eye sight and they always see all of the traffic around them. But when they are not up in the sky making it safer for the rest of us then we will continue to hit each other. Period. Until alternate means exist to prevent it. And one last thing, to everyone claiming that the quality of instruction and ability of student/private pilots just aren't what they used to be(sigh) B#*W me.

 

[temcgrew]

avbugs assumptions

avbug, I replied to your comment about using the radio for a reason, not to say that I assume there is no one around if nothing is announced on the radio. My comments were very brief about the subject so I don't appreciate the fact that you assumed what I meant by my comment. That goes for all of the rest of you that want to kick some a$$ becouse of other pilots comments.

do you realize that there will still be midairs wether all of you proffessional pilots out there express your opinion on this forum?

 

[avbug]

I have no intention of "B#*W ing" you, but I stand by the contention that flight instruction isn't what it should be. By and large, flight instructors today live with a heritage of inexperience. One low time pilot instructing another, with each instructor getting his or her basic instruction from someone who's never done more than fly around the pattern.

When I started flying, none of my instructors had less than 30 years experience, and most had considerably more. I suspect I'd be long dead, knowing the foibles and failings of the teenage pilot I was, had I not been tutored and guided by those folks.

This last summer, I spent much of the summer sitting under the wing of an airplane watching students and instructors doing some of the dumbest and most stupid pilot tricks imaginable. Several times I was moving for my vehicle because I was absolutely certain I was about to see an accident...I still haven't figured out how one in particular never materialized. (An instructor doing full stalls and slow flight with a student in a Cessna 172, while only a few feet above the runway...the wintips missed the ground by only a couple of feet, several times). I even watched one pilot crash into the runway, damage the airplane to the point of being unable to maintain direction control even in taxi, then taxi to the end or the runway with great difficulty, and take off again.

I work on several web boards: I say work, rather than simply participate, because I spent a considerable amount of time counseling and researching for folks. I do it to maintain my own proficiency in instruction and currency in information...the web sites are a tool to help me maintain motivation in studying. However, I frequently end up counseling on some of the most simple of subjects; certificated pilots who should have learned these things as students before solo...and were never taught them. Often those types of questions come from flight instructors.

When meeting with instructors in the field, I often encounter some extreme deficiencies in knowledge and understanding...it's a wonder how these people managed to make it through a practical test, or even get recommended in the first place. A terrifying prospect to think they're passing on their concept of knowledge to students. A heritage of inexperience, often mixed with a lot of attitude. I spoke this spring with an individual who was screening flight instructor applicants at a particular college. As we discussed the quality of the applicants, he allowed that he required a certain level of instructing experience above what many instructors normally have, and even with that background, something like 90% of the applicants couldn't pass his simple screening. That doesn't speak highly of the instructor applicants.

So no, I won't "B#*W " you, nor will I recant my statement that the level of instructor and pilot applicant these days, is severely lacking. It doesn't need to be that way.

UEJ500, I assumed nothing about your comments. I find it a ridiculous act to call on the radio asking for traffic reports. One might better start listening to the radio a little sooner. My favorite are folks who arrive at the end of the runway, and then ask for any traffic in the area to advise them of it's position...displaying extreme laziness as well as a certain conceit that the world must stop just briefly enough to inform that particular airplane of it's status. Such hautiness is further compounded by the inability of non-radio traffic to respond, or traffic which does not hear, or traffic which is unable to respond due to other preoccupation, wrong frequency, etc.

You only assumed I was speaking to you. I was not. Assumption in aviation is a fools errand. My comments were made in general, at large.

I have no desire to kick your "a$$" (wallet?), nor that of any other poster concerning this subject. Again, your assumption, and we all know about assumption.

Who made the suggestion that this forum would alter the ratio of midairs? Nobody. Do we realize this; that it won't alter the ratio or frequency of in-flight collisions? By and large, yep, we do. But then, if the discussion didn't have merit, most of us wouldn't be participating, either.

A collision occured, prompting Shawn to post a comment about it, and others to respond. Perhaps you'd prefer that we post nothing, and comment on nothing? After all, nothing said here will change a thing...so why bother?

Perhaps just because being involved is worthwhile, no? We all have our reasons for posting and participating, just as we all have our reasons for flying. Personally, I'm unskilled and uneducated enough I probably wouldn't make it in the real world...ergo, I fly. I have no life, ergo, I post. What's your excuse?

 

[temcgrew]

sorry, I gotta get back to my life and my radio calls. no time to post anything else.