Mesaba Ta From Their Roadshow

[flyn96]

have a commuter policy, 75 hour min guarantee for line and reserve pilots, and of course our trip and duty rigs (which "lead" the industry). That's what I can think of off the top of my head without the contract/TA in front of me. What does Mesaba offer that is "leading the industry"?


all of the above except the rigs however you can consider the 4 day min a rig

 

[g159av8tor]

Guys,

It's all about the rigs and soft money. Arguing over $0.75 - 1.25 / hour (about 2%) is wasted effort if you have the rigs. At ACA, as a 3rd year FO, I will make $45-46 in 2004 because of the soft money and contractual pay rules. Take a long and hard look at this part of the TA. Ask questions if you don't understand the legal-ease.

Tailwinds and good luck...

 

[XJslave]

As a former Mesaba pilot now at AWAC I have a question for the the Mesaba folks. I keep seeing you guys say the the retirement is better than AWAC's. Maybe I'm missing something, but when I looked at the summary of the TA it look like they just increased the match on your 401K. Is this true? At AWAC the company puts money in our 401K even if we don't put anything in it.

 

[surplus1]

Our work rules lead the industry! I repeat OUR WORK RULES LEAD THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!

I'm not criticizing your TA nor am I suggesting how you should vote.

However, I've read your summary and I've seen the "presentation" that was used in your road shows. In those two documents, I failed to notice how you determined that your "work rules lead the industry." If you would take the time to tell me how you made that determination I would be grateful. Is there something in the full text that is hidden in the presentation?

Work rules give you quite a bump in paychecks. So when you all talk about >>>>> Comair making $1-3 dollar more an hour than a Mesaba pilot ask them what pay is protected when a trip is cancelled, Ask about CDO's, ask about minimum pay garantee, ask about a minimum pay day, ask them what kind of scope protection they have, ask about training on the back side of the clock, ask about retirement, ask about jumpseats.

You got my attentions with that so, for the sake of conversation, I decided to take a look and compare.

1) I don't agree with your "$1-3 dollars more an hour. I can't consider your turboprop rates because we do not have any turboprops, so I went to the jets. I compared your DOS+4 rates (highest in your contract - 4 yrs from now (2008), with CMR's 6/'05 rates (highest in our contract - it's amendable in '06) and this is what I got.

MSA 60-69 pax jet CA / CMR CRJ 70 CA
1. 65.48 ..........................69.32 = + 3.84
5. 73.71 ..........................78.32 = + 4.61
10. 85.46 ........................92.86 = + 7.40
15. 99.06 .......................108.12 = + 9.06
18.104.24 .......................118.22 = + 13.98

FO's
1. 25.97 ............................ 24.45 = - 1.52
2. 31.14 ............................ 42.89 = + 11.75
5. 38.35 ............................ 46.99 = + 8.64
8. 41.91 ............................ 51.49 = + 9.58

MSA 40-59 pax jet CA / CMR CRJ 50/44/40

1. 61.14 ............................. 63.02 = + 1.88
5. 68.81 ............................. 71.20 = + 2.39
10. 79.78 ........................... 82.91 = + 3.12
15. 92.49 ...........................100.00 = +7.51
18. 101.06 .........................105.55 = +4.49

FO's
1. 25.97 .............................. 24.45 = - 1.52
2. 31.14 .............................. 38.85 = +7.71
5. 38.35 .............................. 42.56 = +4.21
8. 41.91 .............................. 46.64 = + 4.73

Remember, that's comparing your 2008 rates with our 2005 rates, and except for new hire pay, we are ahead of you by a lot more than $1-3/hr. If we compare your DOS rates to our 6/04 rates its pretty much the same pattern, and in some cases the differences are even greater. Your top of the list rate for the Avro is more than $20/hr less than our CRJ 70 and your FO rates average about $7.50/hr less. New hire is yours at $0.58/hr more. When you call it $1-3/hr difference I think somebody's exaggerating a whole lot.

Mesaba pilots, by far, blew away the competion with work rules and scope.

Hmmm. I guess we weren't included in the "competition". I'll agree you blew away MES and some others, but I don't think you blew away Comair. Your scope is better, but you're an independent, not a subsidiary. Again, I'm not being a critic, I just don't think you need to exaggerate.

We have greater of scheduled or actual - eqial, premium pay that is better than yours, displacement pay/rules that are better than yours, rigs that are better than yours, min day equal to yours, CDO rules the equivalent of yours, training section equal or better, perdiem better, deadhead better, retirement on top of the 401K and better, vacation accrual equal, sick leave equal, moving similar, training better, filling of vacancies equal or better, guarantee equal, days off better, accomodations equal, reserve rules equal or better, scheduling arguably better, hours of service better than yours. And our contract is 3 years old. How did you come to the conclusion that your work rules are "industry leading"?

At first my vote was a no, But now knowing the facts I changed it to an absolute YES.

If your TA satisfies your needs, by all means vote for it. I don't expect you to vote on the basis of what is best for us. I just wish the union wouldn't spin these things.

When agreemests like this one have forced us to make concessions, perhaps it will be easier to compare contracts. In the meantime, its apples and oranges.

For instance in comparing your TA with ARW, you are comparing a new contract to one that has been gutted by concessions. ARW's contract was better than Comair's before they decided to take concessions for the benefit of United (a move that I think was foolhardy).

 

[bigbob]

TA

I must vote NO for this TA.

 

[TonyC]

On the Art of Negotiating

This has been an interesting thread for me to read. I see a smattering of factual data exchanged and examined, and a plethora of emotion tossed to and fro, and I see a lot of bravado in the form of "my Daddy's stronger than your Daddy" comparisons.

Remember, folks, the TA was negotiated by Mesaba's Negotiating team, made up of Mesaba pilots. They would not have agreed to send a TA to the MEC and then to the membership if they didn't feel it would have the support of the majority of the Mesaba pilots. They weren't trying to appease Mesa pilots, or Eagle pilots, or United pilots, or... well, you get the drift. The TA is for Mesaba pilots, and apparently, in the opinion of the Negotiating Team and the MEC (recall, the MEC is also made up of Mesaba pilots, not some group of Washington, D.C. heavies) the TA satisifies the needs of the pilots.

I'm not trying to say that automatically means the TA will pass. I just think you should try to keep this in perspective. Compared to current work rules, the PowerPoint presentation appears to ME to be an improvement. I'm not a Mesaba pilot, or a regional for that matter, so there's a lot I am surley missing, and I realize the road show slides are designed to highlight the improvements, so I'm not naive. I'm just saying what I observe - - it APPEARS to be a big improvement.

As for all these comparisons I'm seeing thrown about. First, you must surely realize that there's more to a contract than a PAY RATE. You could have a $150 per hour pay rate, but only get paid an hour a day. Then you could brag about your pay rate, but somebody else would beat you in the take-home column. Indeed, there's pay rates, rigs, schedules, days off, guarantees, overrides - - per diem rates - - bonuses - - all manner of animals that can affect not only your paycheck, but your quality of life. Don't underestimate the value of quality of life.

Second, you must resist the temptation to "cherry pick" the best provisions from every contract you see, and think you can combine them all into your contract. Sure, there may be a better reserve callout at Airline X, and a better Retirement Plan at Airline Y, and a better scheduling provision at Airline Z. It might be because the pilots at Airline Y were more focused on improving their retirement plans, and were willing to sacrifice more in the negotiations to get it. What Airlines X, Y, and Z were focused on improving and sacrificed to negotiate is really irrelevant to YOU and YOUR airline and YOUR contract. Mesaba's Negotiating Team negotaiated the TA based on the priorities of Mesaba pilots, not Airline X pilots or Airline Y pilots or Airline Z pilots.

So, Mesaba pilots - - search your heart to determine if it's what's right for your family, your airline, and your profession. If it raises the bar for all three, sufficiently in your estimation to make it possible for you to look at your ugly mug in the mirror each day without shame or remorse, vote accordingly. Don't be discouraged with all the "this part is better in their contract" detractions. Look at the TA as a whole - - the document that will determine your destiny in terms of lifestyle, pay, and security. That's all you get to vote on -- nothing else is on the table.

OK, now that I've spewed... can somebeody tell me what a "CDO" is?

 

[jarhead]

CDO = Continuous Duty Overnight, aka "High Speed" "Stand Ups", "Naps" etc.

 

[LivinDaDream]

Tony C,

Great post. CDO's are what some call high speeds, or standup overnights, or illegals. CDO means Continuous Duty Overnight.

surplus 1,

Comair blows us away in pay and nobody can argue that even with our work rules.

The only thing that I would say as a reaction to your post is that you should also read our old contract to really understand why our work rules are at least amongst the best, if not the best in the regional industry. What you see in the TA Summary is a highlight of the IMPROVEMENTS to our old contract. We actually had outstanding work rules prior to this TA, but we clogged up a few holes with the new language.

I have read and compared both contracts and compared rule for rule and section for section and still believe our new TA has surpassed All Regionals in work rules. I won't exagerate and say that blew anyone away, but we did pull ahead in the area of work rules.

As for the 3 year old contract comment. The fact that you negotiated your contract 3 years ago is exactly why you lead the pack. I would give anything to negotiate in the environment that you did. To compare any contract negotiated in the last 2 years and probably for the next 2 years to a contract from 2000/2001 is just not apples to apples. I am proud of the fact that our negotiators got over $40 million out of a company that swore that it would get a cost neutral contract.

 

[Simon Says]

Guys,

It's all about the rigs and soft money. Arguing over $0.75 - 1.25 / hour (about 2%) is wasted effort if you have the rigs. At ACA, as a 3rd year FO, I will make $45-46 in 2004 because of the soft money and contractual pay rules. Take a long and hard look at this part of the TA. Ask questions if you don't understand the legal-ease.

Tailwinds and good luck...

Amen, this is what I am trying to say.

 

[surplus1]

Tony C

Nice post. I don't agree with every word, but in the aggregate I think you have the big picture.

LivinDaDream

I like your post too. I agree completely that you have made many improvements in the majority of your contract over what you had before.

I also think that every one has over done "the times we're in" with respect to regional airlines. It is the legacy carriers that are in trouble, not the regionals. Since the union caters to the legacy carriers, it has allowed their plight to develop a mind set that has negatively, and I think unnecessarily, affected every region negotiation, since.

There was, IMO, no need for the concessions at ARW or ACA (excluding their support of Independence) or SkyWest. The fact that they took place has hurt you, and everyone else. MSA is certainly not responsible for that.

Anyway, as Tony says, this agreement is for Mesaba pilots. If you are satisfied with the results, vote it in and move on.

My problem was not with your decision or your TA, it was only with the reference to $1-3 difference and "best work rules in the industry", neither of which I see as accurate.

I wish you all well, and again, vote your conscience.

 

[bigbob]

Simon

You drank the kool-aid, one more for the dark side.

 

[j41driver]

Like g159av8tor said...it's all about the soft pay...

I made $65,000 in 2003 as a 4th year DoJet CA (32 seat jet) at ACA. Here's how my year worked out...

Jan: 75.2 flown / 110.5 paid
Feb: 87.1 flown / 100.7 paid
Mar: 68.1 flown /108.5 paid
Apr: 67.4 flown / 87.8 paid
May: 56.2 flown / 93.3 paid
Jun: 74.6 flown /90.9 paid
Jul: 35.9 flown / 89.9 paid
Aug: 56.2 flown / 83.7 paid
Sep: 52.7 flown / 77.8 paid
Oct: 30.6 flown / 107.6 paid
Nov: 33.3 flown / 101.6 paid
Dec: 48.6 flown / 84.1 paid

2003 Total: 685.6 flown / 1136.4 paid

That means approx 40% of my 2003 pay was soft money. Without it my $65K would have been $39K. Soft pay really makes a big difference.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Re: Like g159av8tor said...it's all about the soft pay...

I made $65,000 in 2003 as a 4th year DoJet CA (32 seat jet) at ACA. Here's how my year worked out...

Jan: 75.2 flown / 110.5 paid
Feb: 87.1 flown / 100.7 paid
Mar: 68.1 flown /108.5 paid
Apr: 67.4 flown / 87.8 paid
May: 56.2 flown / 93.3 paid
Jun: 74.6 flown /90.9 paid
Jul: 35.9 flown / 89.9 paid
Aug: 56.2 flown / 83.7 paid
Sep: 52.7 flown / 77.8 paid
Oct: 30.6 flown / 107.6 paid
Nov: 33.3 flown / 101.6 paid
Dec: 48.6 flown / 84.1 paid

2003 Total: 685.6 flown / 1136.4 paid

That means approx 40% of my 2003 pay was soft money. Without it my $65K would have been $39K. Soft pay really makes a big difference.

J41,

I agree 100%. Nice work! Can you explain how you turned 30-50 hours into 100+ pay hours? Where is the majority of your soft time coming from? Thanks!

Sam

 

[mesaba2425]

Simon says drink the Kool-Aid. Drink it, boy!!

 

[j41driver]

Re: Re: Like g159av8tor said...it's all about the soft pay...

J41,

I agree 100%. Nice work! Can you explain how you turned 30-50 hours into 100+ pay hours? Where is the majority of your soft time coming from? Thanks!

Sam

It's a mix of things...100% cancellation pay, better of actual or scheduled block, a couple months were "standups" so I actually flew very little but got paid well (we get half cuty on standups rather than just the monthly guarantee of 75 hrs), October had 2 weeks of vacation in it and with creative bidding I turned 2 weeks of work into almost 108 hours of pay. It comes from everywhere.