Mesaba OPS quote from RST debacle

[sperfly]

Anybody know why they didn't taxi over to the FBO?

 

[Jetjockey]

Why does this surprise anyone? Pay crap wages, you generally get crap performance. What's the incentive at such a low wage? Tell me you never noticed the difference between a mainline station, and a station run by a regional affiliate.

 

[xjgearbtch]

where's the website with the recordings. I could only find two from the startribune from a few days ago.

 

[Booker]

where's the website with the recordings. I could only find two from the startribune from a few days ago.

Try http://press.expressjet.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=194171&p=irol-overview.

 

[CptMurf]

Tell me you never noticed the difference between a mainline station, and a station run by a regional affiliate.

I have. The regional station is helpfull, friendly, and understaffed. The mainline is grumpy, inconsiderate, unaccommodating, and overstaffed (yet no one will move faster than a snails pace).

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

I have. The regional station is helpfull, friendly, and understaffed. The mainline is grumpy, inconsiderate, unaccommodating, and overstaffed (yet no one will move faster than a snails pace).

Here I thought that was limited to UAL mainline stations ( most of them.)

 

[Whydoitry]

XJT DX did contact the station prior to the divert and was told to send the flight. It was supposed to be gas and go but that is irrelevant since the ops people should know that things can change in a second. There was a NWA aircraft there as well that was being denied access to the terminal.Those pax eventually got on a bus and a van, there was no space for XJT pax.

 

[ultrarunner]

OK, been reading this for a bit....here's my story...

Back in my previous life at the airlines, we had an en-route-divert to an off-line station VERY late at night. ATC had us in a hold 50 south of this airport, and while dispatch naturally wanted us to continue to the destination (it was closed due to severe wx) the CA finally made the call that we've wasted enough fuel and we're gonna land. I told the CA that I'd been to this airport dozens of times so WE told dispatch that's where we're headed since it was an approved divert airport. Given that, we had anticipated not having a gate. After getting the new "numbers" from dispatch and on the way to the divert, I quickly gave dispatch the 'after hours FBO phone number for this station (I came from Corp and still carried my AccuKwik).

We landed, taxied to the FBO and the lights we're on!

We had a fairly light pax load, under 100 folks or so, so it was a relatively easy matter to keep everyone contained between the aircraft and the FBO for the 4 hours or so we were there.

Now granted, this was just before 9/11 and before it became chic to leave folks stranded in a tube for un-godly amounts of time. But, with a VERY tiny amount of thinking, it worked out just fine. And I'm not that smart!

This stuff 'aint that hard folks!

JUST THINK!

 

[XJdriver]

Has anyone read the timeline?

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTM2MDZ8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1

"23:40 While conducting the arrival procedure for MSP, 2816 was placed in a holding
pattern by Air Traffic Control (ATC) due to thunderstorms that had developed
over the field. The crew requested an alternate airport change to either RST or
Farmington, MN. Because both airports are closer to MSP than MSN, using
either airport as an alternate would give the aircraft additional fuel to circle MSP
in anticipation of a break in the weather and therefore an opportunity to land​

safely and nearly on time at MSP."





It is obvious to me how much thought was put into where they were going for an alternate. Farmington, MN doesnt have an airport. This is a VOR only, near KLVN Airlake Airport with a runway 4,098' long.

It was obvious that they didnt think that they would end up at an alternate. I have never heard of an airline using what would be questionable as an emergency diversion airport as a viable alternate. To me even a consideration of this speaks to where the real problem began. ExpressJet crew and dispatch put themselves in a bad situation from poor planning ahead of time. If they would have landed at KLVN instead, would it be the FBOs fault that they overran the runway and couldnt get back out or get fuel and there was no ARFF.

If there was a tornado that came through my city and my families homes were damaged and my house was safe, my family would come here and I would try to help them. If a family from another city came over and needed help do you really think I would help them before my family when they are not even from the neighborhood? Is it really reasonable that I am then blamed by this other family for their demise when they made a poor choice to come into my house instead of there own families when they could have?

I think there is plenty of room for blame to go around but the true source of the blame is ExpressJet had no business using RST as an alternate when no one in thier family provides service there. ExpressJet created there own emergency there and is now trying to blame it on somone who was trying to help but had no obligation to.

 

[flyboy06]

Has anyone read the timeline?

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTM2MDZ8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1

"23:40 While conducting the arrival procedure for MSP, 2816 was placed in a holding
pattern by Air Traffic Control (ATC) due to thunderstorms that had developed
over the field. The crew requested an alternate airport change to either RST or
Farmington, MN. Because both airports are closer to MSP than MSN, using
either airport as an alternate would give the aircraft additional fuel to circle MSP
in anticipation of a break in the weather and therefore an opportunity to land​

safely and nearly on time at MSP."





It is obvious to me how much thought was put into where they were going for an alternate. Farmington, MN doesnt have an airport. This is a VOR only, near KLVN Airlake Airport with a runway 4,098' long.

It was obvious that they didnt think that they would end up at an alternate. I have never heard of an airline using what would be questionable as an emergency diversion airport as a viable alternate. To me even a consideration of this speaks to where the real problem began. ExpressJet crew and dispatch put themselves in a bad situation from poor planning ahead of time. If they would have landed at KLVN instead, would it be the FBOs fault that they overran the runway and couldnt get back out or get fuel and there was no ARFF.

If there was a tornado that came through my city and my families homes were damaged and my house was safe, my family would come here and I would try to help them. If a family from another city came over and needed help do you really think I would help them before my family when they are not even from the neighborhood? Is it really reasonable that I am then blamed by this other family for their demise when they made a poor choice to come into my house instead of there own families when they could have?

I think there is plenty of room for blame to go around but the true source of the blame is ExpressJet had no business using RST as an alternate when no one in thier family provides service there. ExpressJet created there own emergency there and is now trying to blame it on somone who was trying to help but had no obligation to.

Well I'm assuming that's why RST was chosen (roll eyes)

not to mention Dispatch confirmed with XJ operations that they could accept and handle our EMB-145 before SOCC authorized the diversion change. I have no doubt that DX would have told the CA, "sorry, continue to MSN and we'll get you gas" had XJ said "unable".

Why didn't XJ just say "sorry we can't help you" and tell the media that. They spent a week telling all the major outlets that XJt refused to deplane, refused to take a bus that was offered. Meanwhile we had XJ employees on a recorded line telling us the exact opposite. WOW!

 

[xjhawk]

It was a pure lack of common sense, and an overabundance of fear and red tape. Clearly XJ ops dropped the ball. And that is a shame. However, as PIC, you have to be able to think outside the box. Obviously, nobody wanted to get fired for making a bad decision in this bad situation, but let's use our brains here people. I pray that I'll never be in this situation, but I'll definitely use this as a learning experience for when times don't quite go as planned.

MM

Its great seeing a positive spin on this entire thing but I must say I think its funny that an Entire Operation can be screwed up at an airline and yet another airlines outstation can be to blame. Some quote an "unwritten rule" to help other diverted airlines I must say that is funny. Most of our station people have not been around long enough to know old time unwritten rules! I am happy XJ's leadership are holding the line in defending our people. Give me a break. I hope If I ever screw up or more correctly get put in a screwed up situation like the Captain did I have someone elses station to blame! what a world we live in!

 

[Baronman]

Its great seeing a positive spin on this entire thing but I must say I think its funny that an Entire Operation can be screwed up at an airline and yet another airlines outstation can be to blame. Some quote an "unwritten rule" to help other diverted airlines I must say that is funny. Most of our station people have not been around long enough to know old time unwritten rules! I am happy XJ's leadership are holding the line in defending our people. Give me a break. I hope If I ever screw up or more correctly get put in a screwed up situation like the Captain did I have someone elses station to blame! what a world we live in!

Wrong...Nobody is saying the aircraft diverted because of some "unwritten rule," and the crew would rely upon this to get serviced in RSW.

But if dispatch coordinates with the station ahead of time and then the plane actually shows up, why wouldn't the crew think they could get service? So now the station does not provide service, they provide bad information regarding airport security as a reason why they can't provide help.

The thing that stood out is Mesaba first acted like they were sooo willing to help....Yet the phone records show otherwise.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Wrong...Nobody is saying the aircraft diverted because of some "unwritten rule," and the crew would rely upon this to get serviced in RSW.

But if dispatch coordinates with the station ahead of time and then the plane actually shows up, why wouldn't the crew think they could get service? So now the station does not provide service, they provide bad information regarding airport security as a reason why they can't provide help.

The thing that stood out is Mesaba first acted like they were sooo willing to help....Yet the phone records show otherwise.

I would really like to know where this proof of Dispatch contacting the station. I fly around our system and even when they know I am coming I can't get an answer on the radio. I doubt there were more than 2 or 3 people working the station even with the Mainline diversions.

How is it everybody thinks we could work on another companies aircraft without a contract, ground operations manuals, ground ops training for the EMB145. When Pinnacle uses our gates, our people must service them per their manual, not ours.

Maybe in the times of before Deregulation the was some "Unwritten Rules". But in the days of money and competition - there is no such thing.

I have very little good to say about our ground handling. When I upgraded to Captain, I have seen our people walk away from 9E flights. This is terrible and everything said is mostly true. But I don't see how XJT has a leg to stand on when they divert to a station they don't serve. If they were on fire and this happened, that would be different.

XJT presumes help and with no trained coordination blames us for 6 hour delay. Heck Continental Xpress could have driven from MSP in 45 minutes. With Airport Management escort through the SIDA areas the plane could have been out of RST in less than 3 hours. But yep its all our fault...

 

[CptMurf]

Wrong...Nobody is saying the aircraft diverted because of some "unwritten rule," and the crew would rely upon this to get serviced in RSW.

But if dispatch coordinates with the station ahead of time and then the plane actually shows up, why wouldn't the crew think they could get service? So now the station does not provide service, they provide bad information regarding airport security as a reason why they can't provide help.

The thing that stood out is Mesaba first acted like they were sooo willing to help....Yet the phone records show otherwise.

Wrong... When they called the station it was just a gas and go request. Not a babysit our pax and crew all night request.

Crew wanted to divert to Farmington, which does not even have a commercially served airport. Good planning there.

The timeline shows the crew/dispatch kept trying to get the flight back underway to MSP. What is not mentioned is that the station tried to get the passengers onto the bus that they got for the NWA passengers (there was room), but XJT did not want to give up on the flight yet, refused, and it was only after that they started whining they needed a bus.

I'm not saying the station could not have done more, but XJT dropped the ball here.

 

[big shacks]

XJT dropped the ball here.

Especially The CAPT!

 

[Whydoitry]

Do you guys argue with NTSB reports as well? An investigation was done by an unbiased third party. The results are what they are and the bulk of the blame, in this instance, falls on Mesaba. Until we read the final report and view all the evidence there is no way that any of us can say we know better than the investigators.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Do you guys argue with NTSB reports as well? An investigation was done by an unbiased third party. The results are what they are and the bulk of the blame, in this instance, falls on Mesaba. Until we read the final report and view all the evidence there is no way that any of us can say we know better than the investigators.

Darn Right I would Argue! FAA, NTSB, DOT, IRS are not infallible.
I admit to not knowing all the facts but for the DOT guy to come out and say that Mesaba is to blame...thats just plain horse...t.
I don't know if an incident like this falls under the NTSB. FAA/DOT yes.

Like I said before, I really wish we were in the news for fighting TSA/FAA fines for helping XJT but that wasn't the case. I admit as a new Captain I am not sure how I would handle it. I have been thinking a lot about it though.

 

[Whydoitry]

Why is it horse******************** for the DOT to investigate and make a conclusion based on EVIDENCE? Everyone involved was interviewed, recordings were listened to, an objective assessment was made.

 

[Seaknight1]

Why is it horse******************** for the DOT to investigate and make a conclusion based on EVIDENCE? Everyone involved was interviewed, recordings were listened to, an objective assessment was made.

Because everyone involved was part of the chain of events that led up to this. To come out and blatently blame one party is wrong. This was just like an aircraft mishap; there was a chain of events that led to the unintended outcome. Basically it was a big crap sandwich and everyone had a hand in making it. The DOT coming out and blaming Mesaba, is like making only one of the makers of this big crap sandwich, eat it.

 

[cybourg10]

I would really like to know where this proof of Dispatch contacting the station. I fly around our system and even when they know I am coming I can't get an answer on the radio. I doubt there were more than 2 or 3 people working the station even with the Mainline diversions.

How is it everybody thinks we could work on another companies aircraft without a contract, ground operations manuals, ground ops training for the EMB145. When Pinnacle uses our gates, our people must service them per their manual, not ours.

Maybe in the times of before Deregulation the was some "Unwritten Rules". But in the days of money and competition - there is no such thing.

I have very little good to say about our ground handling. When I upgraded to Captain, I have seen our people walk away from 9E flights. This is terrible and everything said is mostly true. But I don't see how XJT has a leg to stand on when they divert to a station they don't serve. If they were on fire and this happened, that would be different.

XJT presumes help and with no trained coordination blames us for 6 hour delay. Heck Continental Xpress could have driven from MSP in 45 minutes. With Airport Management escort through the SIDA areas the plane could have been out of RST in less than 3 hours. But yep its all our fault...

It was Mesaba's fault, the DOT did an intense examination into this and that is what they determined. Why are you so upset about this? It has nothing to do with you and and Mesaba pilot, the ops station did not handle this well at all.

The captain did try to get buses by the way.............time to let this one go and learn what we can all do to avoid this next time.