Mesaba OPS quote from RST debacle

[Uncle Bunkle]

"She (XJT CA) has to go. I can't do anything for her. I can't have them (pax) in our closed airport."

Wow...just listened to the calls between XJT dispatch and Mesaba OPS in RST. That bitch in Mesaba OPS flat out told XJT that she would not allow pax off the plane into their terminal. ********************in liars, they told the reporters all week that they offered terminal access to the pax....now the truth comes out...sorry to the XJT flight crew who got reamed up the ass for no reason.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I'm a bit shocked, I didn't know XJ ops personnel we were equipped to say anything more than "copy that" over the radio.

All in all, not surprised one bit.

 

[Mel Sharples]

now the truth comes out...sorry to the XJT flight crew who got reamed up the ass for no reason.

So let me get this straight...

XJT uses RST as an alternate even though they know they have no facilities or people there. They allow the flight to get all the way up to MSP with no station of their own to divert to and they end up dumping into RST. The crew then allows the people to be on board all night without declaring an emergency, calling the local cops for help, attempting to go to the FBO, or deplaning the people on to the ramp. XJT dispatch doesn't call the local authorities either, or call the airport manager, or anyone else with real authority to help. They give the excuse that "no busses were available."

So the crew, and more importantly THE PIC, is blameless, yet some $8 an hour ramp worker from another carrier is the only one at fault?

OK.

I think there is more than enough blame to go around and I hate to tell you that the crew isn't exactly squeaky clean here no matter what Ray LaHood says.

 

[Mel Sharples]

I'm a bit shocked, I didn't know XJ ops personnel we were equipped to say anything more than "copy that" over the radio.

All in all, not surprised one bit.

I think all regional carrier stations suck. I haven't ever seen a Pinnacle station that would get high marks, either.

 

[belliott]

I think all regional carrier stations suck. I haven't ever seen a Pinnacle station that would get high marks, either.

Apparently you haven't been to GFK then... in the year I was a rampie there we had only one flight not go out on time or early with the station being at fault... heck the overnight crew would call pax in the early hours of the morning to rebook pax on flights out of FAR if there was a mx or wx problem. When I was there we actually cared about the job.... I still think that holds true for the most part even today.

 

[CptMurf]

So the crew, and more importantly THE PIC, is blameless, yet some $8 an hour ramp worker from another carrier is the only one at fault?

OK.

I think there is more than enough blame to go around and I hate to tell you that the crew isn't exactly squeaky clean here no matter what Ray LaHood says.

I agree with you Mel. There is definately more to the story than Ray LaHood took into account or the media is spinning.

But I guess if SWA dropped into an ASA station, they would be equipped to manage, service and reload their passengers by other peoples posts here.

CA dropped the ball over and over, but XJ will suck up the blame.

 

[CptMurf]

I think all regional carrier stations suck. I haven't ever seen a Pinnacle station that would get high marks, either.

All mainline stations suck too. Since the merger, I have yet to see at Delta station (any of them) that can work the computer, service the aircraft, provide even marginal customer service, or care about an ontime departure.

 

[profit]

No doubt. If you allow yourself to rely on idiot station personnel, you're pretty much f$&%^d.

 

[thrustport]

No doubt. If you allow yourself to rely on idiot station personnel, you're pretty much f$&%^d.

Exactly the point. YOU are the Captain, be a leader and make it happen.

 

[pilot772]

I agree with you Mel. There is definately more to the story than Ray LaHood took into account or the media is spinning.

But I guess if SWA dropped into an ASA station, they would be equipped to manage, service and reload their passengers by other peoples posts here.

CA dropped the ball over and over, but XJ will suck up the blame.

Absolutely that would happen. My Dad was a station manager for ozark and TWA for years. He has always told me that there is an unwritten rule among airlines that when a carrier lands at an airport that they don't normally serve than another carrier will service the airplane. (and charge the diversion aircraft for the ground handling of course.) I worked as gate agent/ ramper for Chautauqua for a while and we took an ATA 757 divert. Only serving ERJ's we weren't exactly equipped but you make due with what you got. The folks got off and went into the sterile area without TSA present. In my opinion there was a breakdown by the Mesaba agent and the airport authority. At a minimum she should have contacted the station manager or airport ops. They could have done something to accommodate the passengers.

 

[NJAPLT]

There needs to be a minimum level of passenger rights that any airline flying stopping in the U.S. should follow. These should be either Federal Law, or Federal Air Regulations, to ensure compliance.

This would help both airlines and flight crews know what the minimum level of service & safety the airlines must provide at all times.

A passenger bill of rights would also provide cover for the airline pilots who work for "less than stellar" carriers (as I have in the past), as a pilot cannot violate regulations or federal law no matter what airline management wants them to do.

This is a systemic problem across all the airlines in my view, every one (regionals and majors) has had incidents of overflowing lavs, long delays, and passengers who have been refused the basic right to depart an airplane that is still on the ground after hours of delay.

This should be a good thing for all of us, as pilots are some of the most "frequent flyers" while deadheading to, from or during work.

Lets hope this incident finally forces congress & the FAA to act.

 

[WalterSobchak]

He has always told me that there is an unwritten rule among airlines that when a carrier lands at an airport that they don't normally serve than another carrier will service the airplane. (and charge the diversion aircraft for the ground handling of course.)

Bingo...

You make due with what you have and do the right thing.

It's almost a matter of, without a better term to use, honor. There's not much of that left in this industry, but all of us non-management types have a sort of unwritten obligation to uphold that as much as we can. For the rank-and-file airline employees, from the pilot down to the ramper and everyone in between, this business runs on karma for all of us. We all chose to do this for a living and, regardless of who's paint is on the metal, we have a responsibility to take care of each other and let management hammer out who is going to pay for it. It sounds really hokey, but it's true.

Now, let's all join hands and sing "Kumbaya".

 

[Metro752]

Non-flyiing Missaba eats dick. Literally.

 

[CptMurf]

In my opinion there was a breakdown by the Mesaba agent and the airport authority. At a minimum she should have contacted the station manager or airport ops. They could have done something to accommodate the passengers.

Their dispatch or manager of SOC could have just as easily called the station manager or airport ops., but they chose not to.

While I agree that the station didn't do everything in its power...
First off, I would be hard pressed to divert to an airport that is not served by my own brand of flying. But, if I had, I would have never given up on this. I would have called everyone I know Dispatch, SOC, Flight Ops Manager, CEO, Airport Manager, Police, etc. until I got my pax off that aircraft. Not just listened to a rampie. If we can't get off, fill us up, were leaving.

Your blaming a rampie of another airline for not going above and beyond, yet place no blame on the ones charged with the safety and security of their own passingers or crew?!?

Being a longtime XJ pilot, I am upset that our station did not help out more, but there is more to the story than what the press has devulged (I know for a fact). And to place sole blame on the station, well, that's just bad karma itself.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

It was a pure lack of common sense, and an overabundance of fear and red tape. Clearly XJ ops dropped the ball. And that is a shame. However, as PIC, you have to be able to think outside the box. Obviously, nobody wanted to get fired for making a bad decision in this bad situation, but let's use our brains here people. I pray that I'll never be in this situation, but I'll definitely use this as a learning experience for when times don't quite go as planned.

MM

 

[COOPERVANE]

To me this is exactly like a typical crash. There is no single failure but a chain of failures that several people could have broken. No ONE person is at fault. This scenario has happened many times in this industry and most of the time it is handled properly.

This time it was not.

 

[xjcaptain]

Apparently you haven't been to GFK then... in the year I was a rampie there we had only one flight not go out on time or early with the station being at fault... heck the overnight crew would call pax in the early hours of the morning to rebook pax on flights out of FAR if there was a mx or wx problem. When I was there we actually cared about the job.... I still think that holds true for the most part even today.

All I can say is that after NWA quit handling GFK, the service went dramatically down-hill. Having flown there countless times, we always have the same issues. Rampers walking towards spinning props well within the prohibited area, incomplete paperwork, unable to print final weather, planeside checked bags without tags forcing pax to go to baggage claim once we get to MSP etc.

As far as rebooking passengers, I hope not to burst your bubble, but thats what most stations do....Nothing out of the ordinary.


Not to rag on you, but the perspective isn't the same from the cockpit.

 

[Jamis81]

beyond the rampies making the wrong call on the regs.. beyond XJT crew and dispatch not calling the right people.. the XJ rampies aren't even trained on the ground handling of a ERJ 145.. why did XJT dispatch not call American Eagle in RST for help instead of just expecting the help of people not trained to work on this particular aircraft? I think that is a good question that should be answered as well..

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Non-flyiing Missaba eats dick. Literally.

Literally? That sounds painful.

 

[rene]

I am really confused by this. An Express Jet diverts to Rochester, MN at 10:00 PM, 2.5 hours after leaving Houston. They have absolutely no contractual relationship with Mesaba and have made no prior arrangements for any service.

Because of the weather situation the limited staff thay do have are consumed handling NWA, Pinnacle, and Mesaba diversions.

Expresss Jet shows and they ask for service. Mesaba responds with a "sorry we are busy and cannot help you".

Why couldn't Express Jet diverted to about 40 of the other on line cities they passed along the way.

What legal or moral obligation did Mesaba have regarding TSA laws, regarding Airport rules, regarding Continental's passengers?

Where was the airport management? Where was Express Jet SOC? Where were other options, such as FBO's?

Where was the Captain?

This story isn't over?

 

[sperfly]

Anybody know why they didn't taxi over to the FBO?

 

[Jetjockey]

Why does this surprise anyone? Pay crap wages, you generally get crap performance. What's the incentive at such a low wage? Tell me you never noticed the difference between a mainline station, and a station run by a regional affiliate.

 

[xjgearbtch]

where's the website with the recordings. I could only find two from the startribune from a few days ago.

 

[Booker]

where's the website with the recordings. I could only find two from the startribune from a few days ago.

Try http://press.expressjet.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=194171&p=irol-overview.

 

[CptMurf]

Tell me you never noticed the difference between a mainline station, and a station run by a regional affiliate.

I have. The regional station is helpfull, friendly, and understaffed. The mainline is grumpy, inconsiderate, unaccommodating, and overstaffed (yet no one will move faster than a snails pace).

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

I have. The regional station is helpfull, friendly, and understaffed. The mainline is grumpy, inconsiderate, unaccommodating, and overstaffed (yet no one will move faster than a snails pace).

Here I thought that was limited to UAL mainline stations ( most of them.)

 

[Whydoitry]

XJT DX did contact the station prior to the divert and was told to send the flight. It was supposed to be gas and go but that is irrelevant since the ops people should know that things can change in a second. There was a NWA aircraft there as well that was being denied access to the terminal.Those pax eventually got on a bus and a van, there was no space for XJT pax.

 

[ultrarunner]

OK, been reading this for a bit....here's my story...

Back in my previous life at the airlines, we had an en-route-divert to an off-line station VERY late at night. ATC had us in a hold 50 south of this airport, and while dispatch naturally wanted us to continue to the destination (it was closed due to severe wx) the CA finally made the call that we've wasted enough fuel and we're gonna land. I told the CA that I'd been to this airport dozens of times so WE told dispatch that's where we're headed since it was an approved divert airport. Given that, we had anticipated not having a gate. After getting the new "numbers" from dispatch and on the way to the divert, I quickly gave dispatch the 'after hours FBO phone number for this station (I came from Corp and still carried my AccuKwik).

We landed, taxied to the FBO and the lights we're on!

We had a fairly light pax load, under 100 folks or so, so it was a relatively easy matter to keep everyone contained between the aircraft and the FBO for the 4 hours or so we were there.

Now granted, this was just before 9/11 and before it became chic to leave folks stranded in a tube for un-godly amounts of time. But, with a VERY tiny amount of thinking, it worked out just fine. And I'm not that smart!

This stuff 'aint that hard folks!

JUST THINK!

 

[XJdriver]

Has anyone read the timeline?

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTM2MDZ8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1

"23:40 While conducting the arrival procedure for MSP, 2816 was placed in a holding
pattern by Air Traffic Control (ATC) due to thunderstorms that had developed
over the field. The crew requested an alternate airport change to either RST or
Farmington, MN. Because both airports are closer to MSP than MSN, using
either airport as an alternate would give the aircraft additional fuel to circle MSP
in anticipation of a break in the weather and therefore an opportunity to land​

safely and nearly on time at MSP."





It is obvious to me how much thought was put into where they were going for an alternate. Farmington, MN doesnt have an airport. This is a VOR only, near KLVN Airlake Airport with a runway 4,098' long.

It was obvious that they didnt think that they would end up at an alternate. I have never heard of an airline using what would be questionable as an emergency diversion airport as a viable alternate. To me even a consideration of this speaks to where the real problem began. ExpressJet crew and dispatch put themselves in a bad situation from poor planning ahead of time. If they would have landed at KLVN instead, would it be the FBOs fault that they overran the runway and couldnt get back out or get fuel and there was no ARFF.

If there was a tornado that came through my city and my families homes were damaged and my house was safe, my family would come here and I would try to help them. If a family from another city came over and needed help do you really think I would help them before my family when they are not even from the neighborhood? Is it really reasonable that I am then blamed by this other family for their demise when they made a poor choice to come into my house instead of there own families when they could have?

I think there is plenty of room for blame to go around but the true source of the blame is ExpressJet had no business using RST as an alternate when no one in thier family provides service there. ExpressJet created there own emergency there and is now trying to blame it on somone who was trying to help but had no obligation to.

 

[flyboy06]

Has anyone read the timeline?

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTM2MDZ8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1

"23:40 While conducting the arrival procedure for MSP, 2816 was placed in a holding
pattern by Air Traffic Control (ATC) due to thunderstorms that had developed
over the field. The crew requested an alternate airport change to either RST or
Farmington, MN. Because both airports are closer to MSP than MSN, using
either airport as an alternate would give the aircraft additional fuel to circle MSP
in anticipation of a break in the weather and therefore an opportunity to land​

safely and nearly on time at MSP."





It is obvious to me how much thought was put into where they were going for an alternate. Farmington, MN doesnt have an airport. This is a VOR only, near KLVN Airlake Airport with a runway 4,098' long.

It was obvious that they didnt think that they would end up at an alternate. I have never heard of an airline using what would be questionable as an emergency diversion airport as a viable alternate. To me even a consideration of this speaks to where the real problem began. ExpressJet crew and dispatch put themselves in a bad situation from poor planning ahead of time. If they would have landed at KLVN instead, would it be the FBOs fault that they overran the runway and couldnt get back out or get fuel and there was no ARFF.

If there was a tornado that came through my city and my families homes were damaged and my house was safe, my family would come here and I would try to help them. If a family from another city came over and needed help do you really think I would help them before my family when they are not even from the neighborhood? Is it really reasonable that I am then blamed by this other family for their demise when they made a poor choice to come into my house instead of there own families when they could have?

I think there is plenty of room for blame to go around but the true source of the blame is ExpressJet had no business using RST as an alternate when no one in thier family provides service there. ExpressJet created there own emergency there and is now trying to blame it on somone who was trying to help but had no obligation to.

Well I'm assuming that's why RST was chosen (roll eyes)

not to mention Dispatch confirmed with XJ operations that they could accept and handle our EMB-145 before SOCC authorized the diversion change. I have no doubt that DX would have told the CA, "sorry, continue to MSN and we'll get you gas" had XJ said "unable".

Why didn't XJ just say "sorry we can't help you" and tell the media that. They spent a week telling all the major outlets that XJt refused to deplane, refused to take a bus that was offered. Meanwhile we had XJ employees on a recorded line telling us the exact opposite. WOW!