Mesa

[Intruder One]

kevin_P

You know nothing.........try this on for size,you are a 10,12 or 15 yr. capt. at a regional making decent money(CCAir) and now you are bought(MESA) and told you will make 4yr. pay.As a kid you can start over,but as a adult with obligations under your belt this is pretty hard to do.Yes a job is better than nothing,but this is close to nothing.Some will probably have to get second jobs just to survive.This was a fine way for ALPA to treat it's senior brothers and sisters.

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

OK, I'll Bite

The Mesa folks (me) keep getting a beating for our contract.

We took improvements in every section except minimum bid, but we keep getting acused of lowering the bar.

So I'll bite.

Tell me, specifically, without the usual RHETORIC, what would be an acceptable contract in the eyes of Whiskey Driver, and a few of the other most prominent Mesa Bashers.

And, more importantly, tell me how you think we could have achieved it. Again, no BS, no generalizations...please, tell me very specifically and very realistically how you could have done it better? Remember, not just you, you've got to have 1,300 pilots supporting you and keeping things unified.

I'm interested in your responses. Maybe we did screw up....but for those who would criticize us, I ask you to tell us how you would have done it better. But please, consider these facts:


Code share partners in bankruptcy, one with govt. loans
Alter-Ego taking flying on a daily basis, more jets on the horizon, and no shortage of fuc$ing pieces of $hit pilots agreeing to work for them (Freedom)
CCAir shut down, 142 pilots out of work
Mediator not willing to release us for self-help
Wet-lease deal set up for MidAtlantic, others
Economy in the toilet, furloughs at many airlines, including regionals

I'm not trying to justify our vote in any way as I truly believe that's our business, not yours. The common response is that "our managment has complained that Mesa is undercutting us and now we need concessions" and I would offer that according to your own logic, you should be able to "negotiate" whatever you want, regardless of other factors. I mean folks sure have no problem beating Mesa up, yet every condition I posted up above was true....

SO, tell me, in all honesty, how we could have done better? Maybe your advice can help us.....

And again..NO BULL$HIT and NO RHETORIC.....

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Ok San Juan since you did ask for me in your post.

1st. You guys should have never allowed a whipsaw to be used as a bargining tool. I am sure you are aware of the republic deal now, because the mind set is if it worked for mesa it will work for us.

2nd. You should have demanded that ALL FREEDOM PILOTS BE LET GO AS A RESULT OF SIGNING THE CONTRACT. That message alone would have been heard and felt around the world that any pilot willing to work for a company thru an alter ego would be placing his own career at risk.

3rd. Demand what ACA, Skywest and us are earning to fly the same equipment.

4th. Tell USair that there is no super seniority everyone starts at the bottom. When times change again and the hiring starts will you be able to go to USAir with your seniority and make that years pay???? He11 no??

If you don't think that these actions have had an effect on other carriers take a look at the new "lets start an alter ego" game plan. I see that my old company TSA has now been backed into a corner with this J4J super seniority. It's great for furloughed USairways guys but it's not a two way street. When they get called home they ain't going to be taking you with them.

I know that a lot has been said against mesa and that you guys feel that you have made improvments, but what good are they if they are still below industry standard for the same type a/c. I have heard comments from you guys like "it was either this or unemployment" and "am I supposed to lose my job for you guys with good contracts". Remember the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

I hope that I answered as you asked, without the BS.

WD.

 

[jetdriven]

JetDriven, you know why no one is bitching about AWA, because they just turned down a B.S. contract proposal. The continue to hold the line for a fair contract even in the face of a poor economy. They choose no to fold like a deck cards, something that you mesa boys have down cold. I know it's hard for you to except what you and the other 78% have done to the industry but at some point you will. Next time use the KY jelly first, this way it won't hurt soo much!!!

WD.

AWA makes about 60% of Industry average. Nobody is bitcing about their contract. We make about 80-85% of Industry average. the contract was NOT concessionary, we just did not get as big of increase as we wanted. The result of us voteing no would be 1000 Freedom pilots and 1000 mesa guys out of work. not to mention 150 CCAir guys unemployed. you dont get it do you.?

 

[jetdriven]

MESA can kiss my ARSS!

F...Mesa

Bunch of yellow belly pushovers

this from an eagle puke?? The same guys who voted in a 17 year contract?? Christ our CR-70 payscales are higher than yours!! You yellow-bellied sellout!! Hey, how long is upgrade on the EMB over there??

 

[jetdriven]

lrt me say this again. JO offered the contract as it was with NO negotiation and we had until 5 PM to accept it or reject it. If we rejected it JO was to proceed with his original scheme of freedom replacing mesa.

1. We could not stop them, WD. It is JO who runs the company, not ALPA. They decide to go ahead with Freedom and we had a lawsuit filed, but it kept getting delayed by Mesa's lawyer games.

2. JO's condition of the offer was all freedom pilots were not to be harmed, all defectors get original mesa seniority while newhires get date of hire seniority but keep the -700 equipment. You demand what you can get. We had no leverage. remember FAL was getting two planes a month and they were parking -200's.

3. We demand ACA, SKYW, and AWAC pay on the crj. they laugh. How do you propose we "force" them to give it to us??

4. J4J was proposed as a take it or leave it deal. USAIR pilots are going to fly those routes whether in a mesa, midatlantic, or republic airplane. We do, however, get 50% of the NEW flying, which was more than we had to start with. This was fiven to us by the USAIR MEC.

PLEASE REPLY, whiskey driver.

Ok San Juan since you did ask for me in your post.

1st. You guys should have never allowed a whipsaw to be used as a bargining tool. I am sure you are aware of the republic deal now, because the mind set is if it worked for mesa it will work for us.

2nd. You should have demanded that ALL FREEDOM PILOTS BE LET GO AS A RESULT OF SIGNING THE CONTRACT. That message alone would have been heard and felt around the world that any pilot willing to work for a company thru an alter ego would be placing his own career at risk.

3rd. Demand what ACA, Skywest and us are earning to fly the same equipment.

4th. Tell USair that there is no super seniority everyone starts at the bottom. When times change again and the hiring starts will you be able to go to USAir with your seniority and make that years pay???? He11 no??

If you don't think that these actions have had an effect on other carriers take a look at the new "lets start an alter ego" game plan. I see that my old company TSA has now been backed into a corner with this J4J super seniority. It's great for furloughed USairways guys but it's not a two way street. When they get called home they ain't going to be taking you with them.

I know that a lot has been said against mesa and that you guys feel that you have made improvments, but what good are they if they are still below industry standard for the same type a/c. I have heard comments from you guys like "it was either this or unemployment" and "am I supposed to lose my job for you guys with good contracts". Remember the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

I hope that I answered as you asked, without the BS.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

JD,

Then STRIKE!!!! That's what it's there for. Hey no one wants to strike but sometimes you have to. I come from a family of attorneys and stalling is part of the game, you have to be willing to not only play the game but win it. I would have gladly given my money each week to support you guys in a strike situation and walk the line with you on my days off to support you. If you had struck, all freedom pilots would be scabs and as part of of getting it over with agree to ALL OF THEM ON THE STREETS as part signing the contract. JO may have not wanted you guys to hurt them but really what choice would he have??? Now every carrier approaching contract talks is going to have to deal with alter ego because you guys let the wolf into the chicken coop and it ain't going to stop until someone strikes... BTW I have looked at your contract and you are not 80% industry level it's more like 66%. Finally I am the last person that wants to see ANYONE on furlough not USAirways and definatly not CCAIR but in war you are always going to have casualties, we know this going in.

This thing is a whole lot deeper than mesa...

WD.

 

[jetdriven]

WD:
we had to be released by the NMB for the 30-day cooling off period before we could strike. I said before the mediator was a company sympathiser. He would not give us a release like we were trying since day one. JO was aware of this and had freedom up and running for almost a year.

Even if we did strike, JO would simply shift the airframes over to midatlantic and freedom, and shut down air midwest. This was already happening. JO had a 90 day rent holiday on the aircraft at mesa and that would be enough time to shift 25 to freedom and 25 to mid atlantic. So, a strike would actually help his goal, to have a non-union pilot group.

now, what do youi suppose we should have done???

 

[Concierj]

Mesa's new contract is an improvement, albeit slight. There is some misunderstanding and that is mainly due to Mesa's 28 day bid system. A 28 day bid equates to 13.04 bids per year compared to most airlines' 12 bids per year (bpy). 70 hour guarantee at 13.04 bpy equates to 76.07 guarantee at 12 bpy. 10 days off for line holder at 13.04 bpy equates to 10.9 days off at 12 bpy. 8 days off for reserve line holder at 13.04 bpy equates to 8.69 days off per 12 bpy. POS still equates to a POS. Line holders currently average 11.9 days off and 77.82 hours of pay (prior to cancellations) per bid. There is minimal hour protection with the new contract. J4J pilots are seniorized based on DOH at Mesa (At the bottom) but get paid first year 50 seat Jet Captain rate regardless of seat position.

Here are the new pay rates per hour. These rates will increase across the board in 18 mos.

1. 0 - 19 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

YEAR CAPT FO
1 $28.72 $18.15
2 $30.07 $20.39
3 $31.64 $21.98
4 $33.29 $23.63
5 $34.83 $24.33
6 $36.27
7 $37.35
8 $38.46

2. 20 - 74 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

YEAR CAPT FO
1 $37.64 $18.15
2 $39.10 $20.39
3 $40.52 $21.98
4 $42.19 $23.63
5 $43.70 $24.33
6 $45.23
7 $46.48
8 $47.78
9 $49.07
10 $50.34
11 $51.72
12 $52.84
13 $53.66
14 $54.49


3. 50 to 59 Seat Jet Aircraft

YEAR CAPT FO
1 $51.17 $20.47
2 $52.76 $27.42
3 $54.35 $30.59
4 $55.99 $31.90
5 $57.64 $32.85
6 $59.32 $33.62
7 $60.94 $34.07
8 $62.90 $34.55
9 $64.83 $35.04
10 $66.82
11 $68.75
12 $70.85
13 $72.95
14 $75.21
15 $76.26

4. 60 – 76 Seat Jet Aircraft

YEAR CAPT FO
1 $53.86 $20.47
2 $55.50 $27.42
3 $57.17 $30.59
4 $58.91 $31.90
5 $60.68 $32.85
6 $62.50 $33.62
7 $64.37 $34.07
8 $66.30 $34.55
9 $68.29 $35.04
10 $70.34
11 $72.45
12 $74.63
13 $76.86
14 $79.17
15 $81.55
16 $82.85
17 $84.18
18 $85.52
19 $86.89
20 $88.36

5. > 76 Seats < = 86k lbs Jet Aircraft

YEAR CAPT FO
1 $57.90 $20.47
2 $59.67 $27.42
3 $61.48 $30.59
4 $63.33 $31.90
5 $65.25 $32.85
6 $67.19 $33.62
7 $68.85 $34.07
8 $70.95 $34.55
9 $73.13 $35.04
10 $75.33
11 $77.58
12 $79.93
13 $82.33
14 $84.82
15 $86.94
16 $89.11
17 $91.34
18 $93.62
19 $95.96
20 $98.36

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Concierj,

Ok that's what I read, and based on that our second yr FO on the rj makes more than your toped out FO on all equipt types. I as well as most are concerned about the alter ego garbage and how this just wrecks havoc on the regional industry.

WD.

 

[Beantown]

WD Wrote, [/B][/QUOTE]

Then STRIKE!!!! That's what it's there for.

They wanted to but the NMB would not release them. It's that simple. If they waited much longer they would have lost what little leverage they had left.

Now every carrier approaching contract talks is going to have to deal with alter ego because you guys let the wolf into the chicken coop and it ain't going to stop until someone strikes...

You act like no one in the airline industry had ever heard of an "alter-ego" airline before Freedumb. Give me a break. This is one of the first things covered in "airline CEO 101". CEO's use it b/c it's very effective an can only be stopped with the kind of scope that Mesa's pilots now have.

I have looked at your contract and you are not 80% industry level it's more like 66%.

Wrong! Remember we are talking regional average not the best vs.. the worst. And even in that case it's not 66%. Can you prove me wrong?


I want to address one more issue. I am sick of all the ACA guys trying to stick there recent furloughs on Mesa's new contract. The fact is and everyone at ACA knows these furloughs have to do with the BK of United and there unwillingness to confirm your contract. This lead to lenders (and ACA mgmt) to slow or stop RJ deliveries. Without these RJ's they didn't need they extra pilots they were carrying to fly these planes. None of this has to do with Mesa or there contract. IF UNITED HAD CONFIRMED ACA'S CONTRACT NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING TODAY! I'm sorry to here about the furlough's but lets place the blame where it belongs. -Bean

 

[got_jumpseat?]

I thought I told you to stop talking?

Oh sorry, everybody in the house think ONLY the way mcprickle thinks.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Sorry got_paranoia, I was only asking. Remember the Message Board called FLIGHT"INFO".com!!!!

How is "INFO" as in finding out about an airline the same as telling me what to do? Is there only one true way to think when it comes to the airlines? Is there only one right airline and the rest are heretics? Sounds like your religion to me. I am afraid the biggest mouths on this board have no life outside the airlines. Get a hobby man.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Ok San Juan since you did ask for me in your post.

1st. You guys should have never allowed a whipsaw to be used as a bargining tool. I am sure you are aware of the republic deal now, because the mind set is if it worked for mesa it will work for us.

2nd. You should have demanded that ALL FREEDOM PILOTS BE LET GO AS A RESULT OF SIGNING THE CONTRACT. That message alone would have been heard and felt around the world that any pilot willing to work for a company thru an alter ego would be placing his own career at risk.

3rd. Demand what ACA, Skywest and us are earning to fly the same equipment.

4th. Tell USair that there is no super seniority everyone starts at the bottom. When times change again and the hiring starts will you be able to go to USAir with your seniority and make that years pay???? He11 no??

Give us a break. Armchair quarterbacking is so easy to do. Again, I said it before, I hope none of you ever have to go through a work action in this environment. Only then can you know. Shoulda coulda woulda. You sound like such an expert.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

JD,

Then STRIKE!!!! That's what it's there for.

So simple huh? You own any firearms? Then you might know that you never take out the ultimate weapon unless you are ready to use it with extreme prejudice. It is not so easy to strike.

That being said, Mesa may have gotten a 99% strike vote that doesn't mean we can! Did you take Airline industry in flight school? Any idea what the NMB or RLA is or a 30 day cooling off period? You need to get a few things from the federal government before you take down a transportation system. This president want going to let it happen. I back what he is doing in Iraq but he would have never risk US and HP by letting YV strike.

I love these simple explanations to complex situations. It reminds me so much of conspiracy theorists and cultists. Get an education.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Got Jumpseat,

I see you have forgotton that we (AWAC) went to the eleventh hour in our contract talks. I see that you had no idea that we were ready to strike if it came to that, I see that you forgot 100% of us were ready to strike, I see that you forgot that Comair DID strike just a few months before we started our cooling off. In fact do you have any memories at all??? I know for sure one memory you will never forget and that is the time you and 78% of your co-workers gave up the farm and helped other companies start the same. You should be proud of yourself.

MCKPICKLE take over...

WD.

 

[jetdriven]

WD, did you forget we had an alter ego? Did you forget that JO was perfectly wiling to shut down the airline? What good is a strike when the company is doomed?? Ask a CCAIR pilot. Ask an aspen, crown, liberty express, desert sun, or air LA pilot what they thought about mesa shuttign them down.

now address the alter ego situation. You didnt have one.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Pre-911 brah. what else you got?

Got Jumpseat,

I see you have forgotton that we (AWAC) went to the eleventh hour in our contract talks. I see that you had no idea that we were ready to strike if it came to that, I see that you forgot 100% of us were ready to strike, I see that you forgot that Comair DID strike just a few months before we started our cooling off. In fact do you have any memories at all??? I know for sure one memory you will never forget and that is the time you and 78% of your co-workers gave up the farm and helped other companies start the same. You should be proud of yourself.

MCKPICKLE take over...

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Pre-911 brah. what else you got?

You know what, I am sick and tired of hearing that Sept 11 is the cause of all of this. The fact of the matter is it is not... Do some research into history young man!! You may find that airlines, historically only have two good years per decade, the yr 2000 marked five and that was really unheard of since the jet boom of the sixties. Research and hit me later with what you find.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD, did you forget we had an alter ego? Did you forget that JO was perfectly wiling to shut down the airline? What good is a strike when the company is doomed?? Ask a CCAIR pilot. Ask an aspen, crown, liberty express, desert sun, or air LA pilot what they thought about mesa shuttign them down.

now address the alter ego situation. You didnt have one.

Ok I will grant you that because it was and is written into our contract, but tell me this if JO was doing all of that and a strike as you put it would have benefited him then why does he even need you now?? Why do you have a job at all since it was all too obvious he was willing to replace you with scabs?????????????? It appears by you post that he really didn't and doesn't need the mesa people so why I ask are you still working??????

WD.