FlyingDawg
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MESA TA Question
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big dog1
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Were going to drag them down Freedom pilots make more than our pilots with the new Ta, Also the1900 guys can not go to jet fo it will be a new hire probally from MAPD with 300 hour. the 1900can only uprade to jet Capt. Our company is a piece of $hit and our MEC are a bunch of sell outs. Also Alpa approved this just for the J4J!! We got nothing in the deal other than the scope!!!!!
SpacemanSpiff
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- Joined
- Apr 16, 2002
- Posts
- 107
drag down
FlyingDawg,
The only information currently available on the TA is what DoinTime posted - a summary. Actual language may be ready, but has not been posted, or it may still be in the works.
Big Dog1,
You make it sound like the scope is NOTHING. Let's look at Piedmont, Allegheny, and PSA. They have no scope...they have no single seniority list and they are being played against each other as well as against the various contract carriers, not just us. They like to demonize us in particular just to make themselves feel better. Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?
On the bright side for Mesa - we are going to grow like gangbusters as long as AWA and USAirways stay in business. Every FO currently working for Mesa should have the opportunity be a jet Captain in the near future. I am hearing that we will grow three times larger than present size. Mesa will be a major airline as far as revenues are concerned. Hopefully when it is time to renegotiate the economy and the airline industry will be on a more sound footing, and we can negotiate a better contract - knowing that we already have scope in the bag.
Could and should we have held out for more...maybe. I am interested in hearing the road shows and FACTS not just the rumors.
Jeepman,
What can I say...you hate Mesa and you probably blame Mesa for all the problems in your miserable little life. WE are not your problem though. YOUR lack of understanding of REALITY is part of the problem. Why didn't your MEC negotiate job protections into your wonderful contract? Were they short sighted?
You might want to start learning about the fundamentals of economics as well. Supply, demand and all that good stuff. In a weak economy you can't just artificially prop up wages and benefits just because you think you are worth it. Well, maybe you can for a short amount of time, but it won't last for very long. If the market can't bear the costs then the market WILL find another way - a cheaper way or more efficient way - whether you and I like it or not.
I know what you are thinking - that am I "whoring" myself out or that I would work for free. Again, I would say that we have to find the right balance of what the market will bear. What is the right balance? I don't know. I would like to think it is more than what we are going to get in the TA, but then again the market is so soft. In case you haven't heard industry experts give United about an 80% chance of going under...chapter 7 that is...
gotta go..dinner is ready
FlyingDawg,
The only information currently available on the TA is what DoinTime posted - a summary. Actual language may be ready, but has not been posted, or it may still be in the works.
Big Dog1,
You make it sound like the scope is NOTHING. Let's look at Piedmont, Allegheny, and PSA. They have no scope...they have no single seniority list and they are being played against each other as well as against the various contract carriers, not just us. They like to demonize us in particular just to make themselves feel better. Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?
On the bright side for Mesa - we are going to grow like gangbusters as long as AWA and USAirways stay in business. Every FO currently working for Mesa should have the opportunity be a jet Captain in the near future. I am hearing that we will grow three times larger than present size. Mesa will be a major airline as far as revenues are concerned. Hopefully when it is time to renegotiate the economy and the airline industry will be on a more sound footing, and we can negotiate a better contract - knowing that we already have scope in the bag.
Could and should we have held out for more...maybe. I am interested in hearing the road shows and FACTS not just the rumors.
Jeepman,
What can I say...you hate Mesa and you probably blame Mesa for all the problems in your miserable little life. WE are not your problem though. YOUR lack of understanding of REALITY is part of the problem. Why didn't your MEC negotiate job protections into your wonderful contract? Were they short sighted?
You might want to start learning about the fundamentals of economics as well. Supply, demand and all that good stuff. In a weak economy you can't just artificially prop up wages and benefits just because you think you are worth it. Well, maybe you can for a short amount of time, but it won't last for very long. If the market can't bear the costs then the market WILL find another way - a cheaper way or more efficient way - whether you and I like it or not.
I know what you are thinking - that am I "whoring" myself out or that I would work for free. Again, I would say that we have to find the right balance of what the market will bear. What is the right balance? I don't know. I would like to think it is more than what we are going to get in the TA, but then again the market is so soft. In case you haven't heard industry experts give United about an 80% chance of going under...chapter 7 that is...
gotta go..dinner is ready
BoredToDeath
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
Spaceman,
Please do research before stating what the WOs have and don't have. We infact do have Scope. It's a page and a half long so I won't bother putting it here. The one thing lacking in our scope is that we can't keep Group from sub-contracting Express brand flying out to companies like yours.
You mentioned the single-sen. list thing, so I'll bring you up to date. The three WOs sen. lists were already put together years ago in hopes that Group would merge us. It has yet to happen legally. The language in our contracts that was forced upon us with respect to jets for jobs will merge the WOs and staple us to the bottom of MDAs sen. list and flow to Mainline. Inother words if things actually turn around for US Airways Group the Mainline will have to take all of MDA and the WOs before they can hire from the outside. Now I'm not to exstatic about most of the wording, but it is what it is. To top it off single carrier status has been denied by the courts sometime in the past couple of years. US Airways Group has Mainline and the WOs set up in just a way that it walks a very thin line, but is still able to maintain everything separate. In the past week or so our MEC held a meeting, which was later deemed null and void, that disscused a single sen. list again. All WO MECs, according one person on the MEC, agreed that there were more pressing issues to deal with in order to emerge from bankruptcy with
Group.
Now is Group playing the WOs against each other? Yes, but not so much anymore and never as much as we've had to compete against contract carriers. To give an example, our FAs while trying to negotiate a concessionary contract to emerge from bankruptcy with the rest of Group, were told directly from Dave that if it was'nt in line with what Mesa has it would'nt be acceptable. Are you starting to see how you guys are hurting us.
You said,"Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?"
I hope that your contract sets some sort of higher bar. Becuase if it comes anywhere below the WOs "Concessionary Contracts" and you approve it, you will trully be whores. Rememmber that we were'nt allowed to vote on ours cause they knew it would'nt have passed. You on the other hand get to vote and this is where we will see if Mesa will gladly undercut the WOs. And don't feed us garbage about what the market will and won't bear. The current market can still pay a livable wage, its just up to you to make sure you get it and not hurt others in the process.
If I were you, I would'nt get to exited about all this growth you talk about. It will come at a very high price to alot of good people. Just wait and see how things turn out. Most of the Mainline pilots I talk to are ready to walk out if the pension problem is not solved to their satisfaction.
Please do research before stating what the WOs have and don't have. We infact do have Scope. It's a page and a half long so I won't bother putting it here. The one thing lacking in our scope is that we can't keep Group from sub-contracting Express brand flying out to companies like yours.
You mentioned the single-sen. list thing, so I'll bring you up to date. The three WOs sen. lists were already put together years ago in hopes that Group would merge us. It has yet to happen legally. The language in our contracts that was forced upon us with respect to jets for jobs will merge the WOs and staple us to the bottom of MDAs sen. list and flow to Mainline. Inother words if things actually turn around for US Airways Group the Mainline will have to take all of MDA and the WOs before they can hire from the outside. Now I'm not to exstatic about most of the wording, but it is what it is. To top it off single carrier status has been denied by the courts sometime in the past couple of years. US Airways Group has Mainline and the WOs set up in just a way that it walks a very thin line, but is still able to maintain everything separate. In the past week or so our MEC held a meeting, which was later deemed null and void, that disscused a single sen. list again. All WO MECs, according one person on the MEC, agreed that there were more pressing issues to deal with in order to emerge from bankruptcy with
Group.
Now is Group playing the WOs against each other? Yes, but not so much anymore and never as much as we've had to compete against contract carriers. To give an example, our FAs while trying to negotiate a concessionary contract to emerge from bankruptcy with the rest of Group, were told directly from Dave that if it was'nt in line with what Mesa has it would'nt be acceptable. Are you starting to see how you guys are hurting us.
You said,"Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?"
I hope that your contract sets some sort of higher bar. Becuase if it comes anywhere below the WOs "Concessionary Contracts" and you approve it, you will trully be whores. Rememmber that we were'nt allowed to vote on ours cause they knew it would'nt have passed. You on the other hand get to vote and this is where we will see if Mesa will gladly undercut the WOs. And don't feed us garbage about what the market will and won't bear. The current market can still pay a livable wage, its just up to you to make sure you get it and not hurt others in the process.
If I were you, I would'nt get to exited about all this growth you talk about. It will come at a very high price to alot of good people. Just wait and see how things turn out. Most of the Mainline pilots I talk to are ready to walk out if the pension problem is not solved to their satisfaction.
Last edited:
Spaceman,
First of all I don't hate Mesa, Freedom yes, Mesa no. Second, I do not have a "miserable little life" it is quite good, thank you. I don't consider myself misinformed, nor am I asking or stating that I or anyone else in this industry should get a pay raise. However I DONT think that any of us deserve a pay cut because of the problems the majors are having. We have done nothing but help the majors out. You mention job protection hmm.......let's see
SkyWest NEVER furloughed a single pilot in 30 Years.
Mesa How many furloughed how many times????
Look I don't wanna get into a bashing contest. All I am saying is that you guys have the opportunity to raise your quality of life after you have had to deal with all the stuff J.O. has thrown at you. Who is the Mesa pilot with the Avatar of the Mesa logo & the K.Y. jelly?Yes, I am a little concerened that United will give you some of our flying. Will I be pissed at you? No, it was United who I would be pissed at. After giving them quality service with great on time and completion numbers, while making money for them they are now hosing us. Yes the economy is bad, but if United is making money from us should we have to suffer, no. If you get the contract will you win? Only if you have some respect and negotiate a FAIR CONTRACT. If not then fine, just remember YOU called yourself a whore, not me.
Good Luck
First of all I don't hate Mesa, Freedom yes, Mesa no. Second, I do not have a "miserable little life" it is quite good, thank you. I don't consider myself misinformed, nor am I asking or stating that I or anyone else in this industry should get a pay raise. However I DONT think that any of us deserve a pay cut because of the problems the majors are having. We have done nothing but help the majors out. You mention job protection hmm.......let's see
SkyWest NEVER furloughed a single pilot in 30 Years.
Mesa How many furloughed how many times????
Look I don't wanna get into a bashing contest. All I am saying is that you guys have the opportunity to raise your quality of life after you have had to deal with all the stuff J.O. has thrown at you. Who is the Mesa pilot with the Avatar of the Mesa logo & the K.Y. jelly?Yes, I am a little concerened that United will give you some of our flying. Will I be pissed at you? No, it was United who I would be pissed at. After giving them quality service with great on time and completion numbers, while making money for them they are now hosing us. Yes the economy is bad, but if United is making money from us should we have to suffer, no. If you get the contract will you win? Only if you have some respect and negotiate a FAIR CONTRACT. If not then fine, just remember YOU called yourself a whore, not me.
Good Luck
Most of the posts on this board seem to indicate that the actual pay rates are the most important part of the contract. Most people forget about quality of life, work rules, insurance, and retirement. Even if the economy is soft and may not be able to yield the wages that regional pilots as a whole have earned, other parts of the contract could be brought up. 8 and 9 days off...that is so pitiful. Supply and demand be what it is, a shorter agreement can also be negotiated. 2 or 3 years instead of 4 or 5. I am not sure what the duration of the Mesa TA is but I hope for their sake, for all of our sake, it is a short one (if it is passed of course).
Mayday.
Mayday.
Jet_Dreamer
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