MESA TA passes 78%

[Thunderchief]

Citation lover

Hey whatever dude, If you think you know so much about the industry, please enlighten me. By the way, what regional do you work for again? Oh yeah, I forgot you're talking out of your @ss!

 

[CitationLover]

hey buttplugger

i guess pilots are the ONLY ones who know about airlines.

 

[Beantown]

I'm not blaming anyone Bean, I'm just saying it sucks and makes our job a little harder...

Thunderchief, I understand that this makes things a little harder. If you are making money on the 1900s and can prove it (always the kicker), there is no reason that you shouldn't get a raise or better workrules. Just do your self's a favor and make sure you leave a little room for a profit so your new pay raises don't become furloughs in the future. I wish you guys and others in negotiations the best. Good luck. -Bean

 

[Thunderchief]

Citation lover

I am waiting to be enlightened...

 

[ACABlueridge]

snip>>
The fact is that the 1900's at Mesa are losing money hand over fist under the current (old now) contract.

That is part of the problem with airlines today they operate aircraft and routes that actually lose money. Therefore the employees pay the price for mismanagement. If a planes loses money drop it if a route loses money drop it. What good is holding onto market share at the expense of profits.

 

[Thunderchief]

Bean

Thanks for the pat on the back, beantown. We all have to remember that blaming other pilots for situations that management put us in is absolutely absurd and I wish the Mesa guys the best of luck.
-Thunderchief

 

[Beantown]

That is part of the problem with airlines today they operate aircraft and routes that actually lose money. Therefore the employees pay the price for mismanagement. If a planes loses money drop it if a route loses money drop it. What good is holding onto market share at the expense of profits. [/B]

ACABlueridge, From a Mgmt point of view I agree with you. You have to remember that there are always other things that are in play. One being leases. It may be cheaper to lose 5 mil a year then to return 45 1900 to their owners and break the leases. I know Mesa owns some of there 1900 but I don't know how many. This is just one of may things that we (pilots) aren't privie to.

As pilots, this is a very tough issue. We want our company to make as much money as possible so we can get paid more. So the company can obtain financing to grow, creating job security and so the airline has the cash to make it through the tough times like these. On the other hand, the retirement of these losing aircraft means furloughs, at least in the short run. The union tends to look short term (one of there biggest problems if you ask me) and so they chose to try and protect the jobs even if it costs the company long term stability. -Bean

 

[Flack]

Got an idea

Maybe the scumbags at ASA/Comair who support the RJDC can also find a way to sue Mesa ALPA for "limiting their careers". I hope Delta doesn't jump on the band wagon and start handing over flying to the Mesa whorehouse. But hey, why not, ASA and Comiar have no scope to protect their own flying. There is nothing that prevents Delta from doing this. Scope is a dirty word, right. Yeah, until it furloughs pilots and parks airplanes or defers deliveries at your airline and you watch the flying go to someone else. Isn't this why the Skywest and ACA pilots are bitching about Mesa? I hope the idiots involved with the RJDC start seeing the big picture. Mainline is not the enemy. We have not limited your careers. The fight you need to be in is the one that gets you scope and protects your flying before your growth comes to a halt as well. You need to place all that ill-conceived will where it should be directed. NOT MAINLINE. You would have no job if it wasn't for mainline. Face it, if you didn't have mainline's tit to suck off you would starve to death. Focus all you efforts on the real problems. What comes around, goes around. Aint unity a beautiful thing.

 

[Nindiri]

All you people talking about refusing the jumpseat to Mesa need to be careful. If you start a jumpseat war, you're playing with fire and EVERYONE is going to get burned. Take a look at Delta and Comair; those guys are not exactly best friends but you don't see them denying the jumpseat.

If you regional guys really want to be treated like mainline pilots, then start acting like professionals instead of a bunch of junior high school kids.

 

[onglideslope]

I am part of the 22% that voted NO at Mesa. I for one could not accept a TA that sends a message out to the ENTIRE industry that we are worth less than a two bit whore. I can work anywhere for 18K a year and be home every night with my family. I am more than disappointed with my company, MEC, and fellow employees. This vote shows every management team that they too can try the same BS during their negotiations and have a good chance of getting away with it. I wish the rest of the industry luck and only hope that their pilot group has more self respect than mine did......

 

[surplus1]

Re: Got an idea

But hey, why not, ASA and Comiar have no scope to protect their own flying.

Time for me to ask some dumb questions. Why do ASA and Comair need Scope to protect "their own flying"? Haven't you guys been telling us all along that it's all your flying and we have no flying?

I hope the idiots involved with the RJDC start seeing the big picture. Mainline is not the enemy. We have not limited your careers. The fight you need to be in is the one that gets you scope and protects your flying before your growth comes to a halt as well.

I'm one of the idiots that supports the RJDC, so I need some help from one of the intelligent like yourself. Help a poor idiot would ya?

First you told us that ALL the flying belongs to you. Now you're telling us that that we must get Scope to protect our flying.

Remember I'm an idiot, so I don't understand. Are you telling me that I now need two kinds of Scope? One to protect our flying from you and another one to protect our flying from Mesa?

I thought you said that Delta was subcontracting [uyour [/u]flying? Now you say Delta is subcontracting our flying. Dude you're just way too smart for me. You seem somewhat confused though. What happened, did you choke up on an overdose of ego?

Then again maybe your not smart at all, you're just a horse's a$$? Could that be it? Nope that's not possible. Sorry, I forgot you were a part of the mainline intelligencia, therefore you couldn't possibly be a horse's a$$. My bad.

Face it, if you didn't have mainline's tit to suck off you would starve to death. Focus all you efforts on the real problems. What comes around, goes around. Aint unity a beautiful thing.

Seeing as how there is no milk in mainline's tit right now, I guess that means we are in danger of starving to death. Is that why we're making money and you're not? Is that why you want our airplanes and our flying too? You have a death wish of your own? You want to join us in sucking on the dry tit or are you really telling me that you'd like to suck on our tit for awhile?

Guess I'll stick with the idiots. What comes around does go around. Maybe if you hadn't spent so much time spitting on us when you thought you were "the man", and we were sucking on your tit, now that you're dry we'd let you suck some, and the milk might have come around to you. Unity is a beautiful thing. That's exactly why there is none with the likes of you. You ain't beautiful.

Come on dude, write another post. I love playing with the intelligencia. I learn a whole lot from your kind ... about what not to do.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: Got an idea

I'm one of the idiots that supports the RJDC, Help a poor idiot would ya?


Remember I'm an idiot, so I don't understand.


Guess I'll stick with the idiots.

All your multiple page posts and you finally summed it all up in one.

 

[surplus1]

All you people talking about refusing the jumpseat to Mesa need to be careful. If you start a jumpseat war, you're playing with fire and EVERYONE is going to get burned. Take a look at Delta and Comair; those guys are not exactly best friends but you don't see them denying the jumpseat.

Those are words of wisdom my friends. The jumpseat should NEVER be used as a political weapon. When you do that, you make yourself a suicide bomber equivalent. Both you and your enemy will die. Please don't do that.

To all the Mesa pilot critics.....

Why don't any of you ask the Mesa pilots who told them that they should vote yes and ratify this TA? How many people from DC were there, in the road shows, selling this contract? Ask them.

 

[Twotter76]

My thoughts

While I wouldnt normally touch a thread such as this there are a few things that I feel I need to comment upon. First off as an ACA pilot that is now uncomfortably close to the bottom I have to say that wishing furlough on anyone is completely unprofessional and should not be tolerated. I am not among the 87 pilots my company just annouced are getting the axe but many of my friends are and I am presumably next if any more furloughs occur. I think this gives me right to comment on the situation.

One repeated thread here is denial of the jumpseat. I will never deny a Mesa pilot the jumpseat and would expect the same courtesy. Politics has no place in the jumpseat - period. We have all worked to hard since 9/11 to get it back to where it is to see it set back by (justifyably) angry pilots trying to get even for the damage casused by this TA. However do not expect me to be more than polite to you. I will comply with all reciprocal jumpseat agreements but that is the end of it. I will not go out of my way to get a Mesa employee on my plane.

I do hope we can impress upon our fellow pilots the damage that this has caused to the negiotiating positions of everyone else in the industry. Not because I think it can be fixed now but because it shows what happens when we think of just ourselves and our immediate position rather than the long term effects.

Someone pointed out in another thread that if Great Lakes can fight for a better contract (and they have) then why can't Mesa? I agree with this 100%. Just because Mesa seems to have stronger opposition in Management (J.O.) than the Lakers do doesnt mean they should fight less.

To the 22% that voted no I applaud your courage and convictions and I apologize in advance for the suffering that you will endure because of the short-sightedness of your fellow pilot. I hope that things somehow work out for you all but you understand that I have limited faith in your collective ability to achieve much of anything now.

And finally I do hope that I won't see Mesa pilots here (other than the aforementioned 22%) bitching and moaning about QOL and pay but I think we all know that we will. You have not only brought this upon yourself but everyone else who was striving hard to make a difference during these very difficult times. If I am furloughed (which looks more likely every day) you can bet your a$$ that I will not be sending to resume to Mesa. I will deliver pizzas before I sink to that level and dont give me that crap about having to pay the bills and watch out for #1 because I have as much debt as anyone on here. But the line has to be drawn somewhere and I draw it here.

OK i'm off my soapbox and welcome any intelligent replies to this post (positive or negative).

Twotter76

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

Mesa Pilots-TA Protects Scope

Folks,

We had to give up the hopes of a good contract in order to get scope. Industry leading scope that will protect ALL of us in the future. Look at what Chautaqua is going through with Republic. Mesaba with Big Sky.

CCAir pilots took a bullet for us and voted down a substandard contract and D. Woerth wouldn't sign the POS they finally passed after the company waited to make an offer until all of the probationary CCAir pilots were off probation and could vote to save their jobs (which they did, 72% passage on the concessionary CCAir Contract).

Our TA has rock solid scope that stops almost immediately Freedom Airlines. We no longer have to worry about a whipsaw at Mesa Air Group.

As for the rest of the TA, note that every section except minimum bid guarantee has enhancements. That means we got improvements. Were they great? No. Where they what we wanted? Absolutely not. Where they what we deserve? Hell NO!

However, they were improvements. It stopped Freedom. It put CCAir pilots back to work along with hundreds of furloughed US Airways pilots immediately.

So we didn't "lower the bar" as the bar was already low with us. We raised it. Although not as much as Comair or Air Willy. But when you don't have ANY leverage, well you do what you have to. We saw our jobs disappear every day to new Freedom planes and pilots. Your ire should be directed at them. Had they not stepped up to enable JO to start that airline, we very well may have been able to negotiate a much better deal.

But again, this contract has improvements in every section, including new cancellation pay and a commuter clause. Now, next time, we improve them.

But don't take my word for it, our TA is posted elsewhere on this website.

And the jumpseat should not be a tool in which to advance a political agenda. Our management recently did that with Skywest and I truly hope pilots are more professional than management.

 

[sleepy]

That's funny. I did a search of your posts and I didn't see any completely trashing SW? I also did a site search and can't find any threads that were outright trashing southwest for doing exactly what you say Mesa is doing. Why the difference? Maybe b/c even though SW has a long term contract that was designed to low ball the entire industry you would love to go there? -Bean

That is true, I have never trashed SWA (great company IMHO). I was not trashing MESA. Obviously, you do not comprehend what you read. Again, the MESA pilots are choosing growth over higher wages, better benefits, and QOL. This will come at the expense of the higher cost carriers for U and AAA (ACA, Skywest, AWA, and the AAA WO's). They will have to lower their wages to compete with you, or you will take the flying they currently perform.

BTW, I do not want to work for SWA, unless they get an ATL crew base. DAL, AirTran and JB are the only places I would leave ASA for.

 

[mckpickle]

Negotiate and argue the facts at YOUR company, not the facts at Mesa. Show your management how you can still be competative and make more money. Do the research, crunch the numbers, and offer a viable, comprehensive, factual argument. ENOUGH with the pointing fingers!

.

Ok so what do we do when our management slides a copy of the Mesa TA across the table and says, well look at what they get? Why should YOU get anymore?

 

[DruDown]

Ok so what do we do when our management slides a copy of the Mesa TA across the table and says, well look at what they get? Why should YOU get anymore?

That's a good question. If you can answer it intelligently and with sound financial and business support, you should be able to get what you feel you deserve. It's your job and the job of your MEC and negotiating committee to present a reasonable proposal to your management with solid justifaction and fact.

 

[mckpickle]

exactly, and do you think that the Mesa neg com did that?

 

[DruDown]

I think the negotiating committee did a good job, not great job. But, keep in mind, during these negotiations, there was more invovled, including, Freedumb, CC Air and J4J.

At most other companies, alter-ego situations do not currently exist (Mesaba and CHQ excluded), and a history of shutting down operations and putting pilots on the street (as with CC Air) hasn't occurred. These variables change the goals of the process drastically and change the entire process drastically. Comparing, let's say ACA's negotiations to Mesa's is apples to oranges.

There is not another company up and running with aircraft and routes that ACA's management could transfer everything to. There is no other company that ACA's management had already dismantled in the past year. And if we remember, when ALPA turned down the CC Air contract, JO did as he said and dismantled the operation.

So, let me ask you this - Would it have been better for the Mesa group to turn down the contract, have everything moved over to Freedumb (non-union and cheap labor), put approx 1400 pilots out of work, put approx 2000 other employees out of work, and you have your contract still being undercut?

If your answer is yes, then I know you're insane.